Silicone hose fail

There was a thread recently in which 'do silicone hoses fail?' yes, they do!
Managed a coolant leak home. 
Discovered it was the coolant hose from block to turbo,  the block end that was leaking. 
When I removed the hose it ripped off. 
I managed to cut down enough to reattach but a make do only and not happy running the car with this hose. 
When I was replacing this with a standard rubber hose the end attached to the turbo basically broke off!  If you bend the remaning hose you can hear the crispiness of it. 
This was from about two years ago DavidL group buy. 
Just thought I would warn you. 
(although the red key ecu went unoticed even when added into the thread. I am that myth!)

A lucky find, that could've been terminal!

I've got exactly that hose installed, it's been in for about 6 months.

How long have you had it on, roughly how many miles had you covered?

You were lucky it happened close to home! Good heads up post, well done

Glad i got a viper set!

Lucky escape mate

Can't remember off hand when but maybe two years. No more than 10k and I drive like Miss Daisey.
I think it has been in the state of fatigue for a couple of months if I recall certain events. But was pretty much a shock it just tore off.
Thought it was a pretty much one time buy hose.
Bad silicone I guess.

Agreed, clearly not a quality part. I will look into exchanging mine. Come to think of it I've still got the original which is still in acceptable condition.

Yes, but the remaining of my coolant hoses pretty much are from the same buy, so making me think?

Although. the other hoses 'appear' to be ok, maybe the heat from the turbo has been the contributing factor to this?

Hmmm i was in on that group buy, think JBT better inspect mine soon - glad it turned out ok D

It looks like they have been overtightened on the clips for them to fracture in such a way.
Again I could be wrong as its difficult to tell from the pictures.
What is evident though is the presence of oil
Around the pipe.

A direct heat source and oil contamination from your rocker cover may have also contributed.
But There's clearly oil on the pipe.The same oil that causes the original pipes to swell and then burst.

I had my rail pipe split from the same gb but it was down to heat.
My under bonnet temps are much higher than the 2.0.
I replaced the entire kit with one of my own kits and after spa noticed discolouration to the same pipe.
Since then I have replaced it again and heat wrapped it.

I don't think a mass panic should be put in place yet but oil will cause issues around silicone.

Unfortunately the original hoses are no longer available so silicone remains the only option and a preferred upgrade .

And on the whole a very reliable one.

I hear what you say about oil and over tightening.
If you look at this slightly out of focus pic would you still say that from where it broke?
And also are silicone hose not prone from the same oil contamination fatigue as the ones you sell ? from what you suggesting so, what other than colour is the point of silicone.
Obviously an oil free clean engine is a good start.

No it looks like its fractured after the clip.
Also those clips are junk and over tightening is near impossible.

Did you fit the hose?
If so was it stretched(hose too small) or was it too big meaning its naturally trying to twist?

Again there's no alternative to silicone now,it has its pro's and con's just like any other aftermarket addition.

Owners want a cheap direct replacement which is what was offered by David.

I would say half the cars I now deal with have these replacements and I have sold them all around the world with no negative feedback.

A failure at some point is inevitable.
My point to this is I was replacing stock hoses on 1 year old coupes under warranty due to failing so its always been a problem in standard form.

It's important that these hoses are installed,monitoring the original hose shape and length.
Otherwise fatigue may interfere.

I fitted the hose and it seemed a decent fit. I did fit the oversized jubilee clip at the time to replace later, which I never did.
This is one hose you don't tend to remove when working on the car as I have done and removed others and refitted many times without issue.
Also, I have spent a small fortune on decent t bolts and clips.
This hose has only once been removed turbo end since fitting originally.

And did it collapse when you removed it?

Maybe the poor clips were allowing water to leak past the pipe which crusted up.
In turn removal would mean having to pull the hose with some force to remove.
When you removed it last time did it come off easily?

When I removed/pulled the block end off/down it 'snapped' at the turbo end as in the pic.
Hence my surprise.

Removal of these pipes requires a delicate hand.
The rubber hoses are 3 ply reinforced therefor maintain a rigid form.
The silicone pipes are much more malleable therefor its possible to stretch the silicone much easier than rubber.
The silicone will stretch fine but the internal ply will fracture.

It maybe was damaged the first time it was removed.
Or just a bad batch wih poor banding.

Either way its a concern.

Mine gave way a couple of months ago too. Cut the tip off and reconnected to get myself home. Thought it would hold, but broke off again after a day. Will post pics when I find time.

Now back on rubber but have one of JBT's in the tool box as a spare. Some other people down here in Malaysia have started seeing failures too, CHOD being one of them. Majority of us have had these on for two years therabouts.

Was this all the same group buy?

NikAzwaa, that's not good news.

If you look at the pic you can see the angle the top part split at. This is where my leak was coming from. There was a small jet of coolant escaping not just a weep.
When I removed the hose the triangle part on the left of pic remained on the outlet. It was not solidly stuck, it was that the silicone was brittle and snapped. I dont think overtightening is the issue.

The part on the right was the piece I cut off so I could reattach the hose.

The way NikAzwaa's hose broke had nothing to do with the hose clip being over tightened. Perhaps it was the stress of being angled but the way the silicon crumbled would indicate that the quality of the material isn't too good. It broke off at the turbo end in a similar fashion as dlongstaff's.

A few years ago I saw an article in my mates "Fast Ford" magazine on Samco hoses. They reccomend that all high temperature hoses should be manuactured using nomex fibres and nomex backings. There was also something about red oxides being available for the really high temperature hoses. If I can find this magazine I'll try to take a scan of the page and post it up.

The one thing that srtuck me in the article was that Silicoln hose manufacture appeared far more complex than I had thought. It was clearly not just a case of getting some pattern items made up but required getting the correct type of silicoln, weave and wraping materials for each hoses location and use.

There has been quite a large debate regarding the use of silicoln hoses on "Street" cars too. Many reports tend to suggest that if you can't afford to go with Samco, or equivelant big name manufacturers, who have considerable reputations and research teams then you should really stick with OEM hoses where possible. Many of the cheaper hoses tend to be manufactured using poorer grade silicoln and weave materials resulting in a significantly lower fluid fastness, heat durabiliry and heat cycle tollerance.

Samco hoses...

The DavidL group started by casting doubt on another group buy as he was suggesting that the Viper performance hoses were being manufactured and imported from Taiwan, the same supplier David was using. If I remember correctly this Viper performance GB Davidl was alluding to was the GB being offered by Roger. I didn't realise that anyone had actually purchased hoses from David in the end but it would seem the cheaper hoses supplied from Taiwan were not up to the job!

Viper performance hoses were offered on the forum by Rudidudi. That group buy seemed to go well with the hoses again being referred to as UK made and coming with the three year warranty, something that may have been useful in this case

If people are going to go with silicon hoses I suggest it pays to know who is making them, what materials they are using and that they are covered by a warranty, the longer the better. I personally would chose to pay that bit more and stick with the quality products from the bigger suppliers with good reputations.

Found it on-line.....

Fast Ford on Samco Hoses

For clarity the *5th* group buy offered by DavidL was started Nov 2010, the first by Rudi was in Mar 2011. These two threads are still in the group buy section.

Given that there were 5 rounds of these hoses made there could be a significant variance in quality and a good quantity of Coupes running them.

DLongstaff do you remember when you bought these? Could mods or admin have a look through the GB section and dig out the old threads? If more failures turn up it could be advisable to issue a warning to owners with the hoses.

I agree on quality but when I wanted a turbo water hose I could only buy one from DavidL.

Interesting article Barmybob.
Agree with the quality/money thing but I trusted these hose were ok as it was the fourth? group buy.
Gunzi I will check to make sure.

I paid for them on 30/09/10

Here is Rudi's group buy to save anyone a search. http://www.fiatcoupeclub.org/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1181471&page=1 Just to help with the dates when we bought them.

I've trawled through my PM's as I distributed CHOD to UK people for DavidL in October 2010. I've counted 12 people in my PM box who paid for a CHOD.

Without seeing the original thread in the GB section I can't be sure that was everyone, nor can I be sure they were definitely from the 4th GB(?), and the same batch as DLongstaffs above, although it does seem likely.

From Memory the pricing offered through the original DavidL hoses compared to that of the follow on group buys was of a similar level. His kit also contained fewer hoses (8 in total) on the original group buy. I'm not sure it was perceived as a cheap option for replacement at the time. I have these on my car and the only reason I changed my OE ones was on the basis of a precautionary reasons (CHOD Kill Die Etc)- certainly not as a cost cutting exercise. At the time this was the only option available for after market water hoses unless you went down the Nobby/Samco/DIY route.

Im not aware of anyone at the time mentioning that they were a 'cheap' replacement route. Valid that the manufacturing process/warranty should have been explored in further depth, but It does frustrate me that when ever a non OE part/modification part is used and fails, its automatically assumed that one of the reasons was that it was cheap and people were trying to cut corners/reduce costs.

I guess it's just a case of reviewing them and keeping them nourished with hose cleaner/treatment.

Rudi's group buy was supplying hoses made by Viper in the UK was it not? I would have thought that these fellows would have manufactured the hoses for the different areas of the engine from the materials most suitable for application. They also provided the three year warranty with that GB too. If there are any issues with those hoses supplied by Viper back then all the buyers should expect to see this resolved?

As far as I can tell the hose that has failed causing this thread was not from this group buy though. It seems to have been supplied by a manufacturer overses, with an assurance from Davidl that they were of the same quality as the Viper hoses. He actually went further and suggested that Viper were using the same supplier that he was and that the hoses were exactly the same!

DavidL's hoses were imprinted with 'Booster Sport' on them.

Russ, I was not intending to suggest that anyone buying the hoses were cutting corners. I would actually suggest that everyone bought these hoses in good faith. There were assurances that the quality was the same as those being supplied by Roger & Viper, to the extent it was even suggested they were exactly the same hoses! I would suggest that David undermined Roger's Viper group buy. But he was not the last person to do this. The last time a Viper group buy was arranged via this forum someone else hijacked the thread and offered and supplied hoses from another unknown source! This is not to suggest the hoses supplied are not of a sufficient quality, it's just that nobody who bought those hoses has any idea who made them.

My concern is more that sometimes we take at face value claims being made by people oganising group buys. We fail to follow up with proper checking and fail to ask all the questions we would if we were obtaining things ourselves. I am also aware that some people organising group buys feel that they need to benefit from putting in the effort. To that end the group buy, whilst offering a small discount to the participants, often results in the organiser getting their items for considerably less, even FREE!

Understood Bob, let's see how this pans out over the course of time. Will be disapointing & worrying if we start to see more failures but I guess one of those things given the points you have stated above.

The joys of Coupé ownership :-)

Spoke to my supplier today and apparently this is due to poor silicone.
Apparently the Asian contribution to the silicone is not 100% and is full of all sorts of mixtures.

He said the early signs of failure are fading of the hoses so if any fading then replace immediately.

Pure silicone doesn't fade.

Hey Guys,

Sorry to hear about the incidence... I'm still using these hoses and nothing like that happened...maybe yet. I've alerted the manufacturer and although 1-2 years of usage is arguably way pass the warranty period..i'll see what I can do. For those who have experienced this, kindly put your name down and the hose that is being affected, I'll have a chat with them and get back to you all.

Once again, sorry to hear about it.

Cheers,

David

1. Biggenz - CHOD failed

1. Biggenz - CHOD failed
2. Kelv27 - Top and bottom radiator hoses failed

I've a friend that had his water rail to turbo hose failing too. Many reports from other coupe owners in Malaysia having the same problems with these hoses too. In most instances, they start leaking from the ends..with the more severe cases being crumbling like the picture above.

I've not gotten round to fitting mine, ever....

1. Biggenz - CHOD failed
2. Kelv27 - Top and bottom radiator hoses failed
3. dlongstaff- turbo to rail, second hose from expansion tank to rail


Appreciate your posting DavidL

That is

Okay, decided then. Another drive to the UK to get everything changed once more. Anyone interested in a at-this-moment-not-leaking-secondhand-set-of-booster-hoses? I'll claim my travelling costs back - twice.

How much would you pay me to take them?

How long ago was the first group buy on silicone hoses (any make)?

Was the booster hoses the first silicone type to come onto the Fccuk group buy scene ?

Are the Viper hoses superior ? Or are they just not old enough yet?

I am trying to see or forsee if there may be a pattern of failures in silicone hoses in general.

Do we know when silicone hoses were first installed on the coupes?

It looks to me like the OEM Fiat hoses are the best bet for now.

Well yes, kind of. After having two standard Fiat CHOD's fail though I would never fit another!

That would be me. So...


1. Biggenz - CHOD failed
2. Kelv27 - Top and bottom radiator hoses failed
3. dlongstaff- turbo to rail, second hose from expansion tank to rail
4. nikazwaa - turbo to rail. Top and bottom rad starting to show deterioration on the inside.

I bought the hoses through the rudi GB having had a couple of hoses fail not long before (including the one which prompted this thread I think, replaced with a genuine Fiat part) and worried about tales of CHOD failure thought I would get the whole lot sorted. My CHOD was in great condition when I took it off, it was stuck to the outlet on the back of the engine and due to the lack of space I had to cut it off with a stanley knife as I couldn't get anything in to lever it. Really felt that I hadn't needed to bother but I hope I did the right thing. Hopefully the Viper hoses will be good quality with long life!

I'm sure I've said this before, but the 3 sets of hoses that JBT sourced from Derby have not failed me yet - it is all down to quality and I've seen them made. Although I am a chemistry graduate I couldn't tell a quality of silicone hose... all I can say is that mine haven't yet failed and I check routinely at what I can see. No issues so far.

How many months/years have they been in use. Plus, if you have three coupes that's going to be spread out a third (etch-er-sketch ) less if used same mileage across the three.
I really got no idea.

As said just before Tim. You are not a typical daily user. Nor am i in fact. As my questions earlier,i would like to see more results/failures etc. Before i decide to sit on the fence and wait. (no smiley)

(It looks to me like the OEM Fiat hoses are the best bet for now)





If they are original ones how old will they be! 13 years minimum

In most industries, spares manufacture does continue for some time after product manufacture has finished, so OEM hoses may not be as old as 13 years.

I was thinking about this, it wouldn't have anything to do with UK cars running quite a strong antifreeze mix? I'm sure I heard that a higher concentration would eat rubber seals/pipe work? Might explain why foreign hoses aren't failing?

I like that idea. But the facts are that we get colder temps in Europe than the UK and for longer times.

Antifreeze mix perhaps not, but few UK garages seem to mix said antifreeze with distilled water.

When I worked on the continent all our workshop Antifreeze came ready mixed with distilled water. In the UK most folk seem to buy neat coolant and then mix with tap water. The bloke in Halfords thought me quite mad buying distilled water to mix with the coolant I was buying.

I never use tap water. Always mix my coolant with distilled water.

Hey guys,

I've been trying to reach the manufacturer of the booster hoses but it seems that they have relocated, so I can't find them now. At any rate, if I can get hold of them, I'll let you all know. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Cheers,

David