My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please

Had my 20VT portofino for a year and a half now, it was taxed, MOT'd and insured.

I parked it up on a road near a scrapyard on Tuesday 13th afternoon, got back to it at midnight the next night. Gone. I had a strong suspicion it had been picked up and weighed in. I'd just taken the battery off of it.

I received conformation from an associate that the car was indeed in the scrapyard.

I spent 2 hours in the yard with the police, being intimidated, seeking the parts of my car. I found and alloy. My football which was in the boot, and my Engine.
No sign of the chassis.

The yard of course deny all knowledge of the car.

I really thought the engine was the breakthrough, but none of the numbers on the engine matched my engine code on the logbook.
I simply cannot prove those parts are mine, and without doing a massive sweep of the yard, can't find any other parts.

Can anyone think of a way to nail that engine to me? apparently the engine numbers on the block are illegible anyway.

Blimey what a nightmare Just to get this right when did you take the battery out - when you parked it up? I assume your associate is unwilling to speak to the police and how / why did they know that the car was indeed scrapped? I'm assuming that it's someone within the scrappers? Any CCTV in the area? Sorry but can't help on the engine number front..

Any CCTV in the street or shops around the compound? You could make a statement regarding the theft and the location of parts/property identified to you, from the vehicle and found in the compound. You also have the potential statement from an independent person- the person who told you that the car was indeed inside the compound. Will they support you in the investigation? Bit confused about the illegible numbers as Any competent vehicle examiner will use acid to restore the illegible serial number on the engine- even if they have been hacksawed/filed off the block.

There are issues legally around cars and possession if someone says they have purchased your stoveh legitimately but am surprised the cops haven’t used doctrine of recent possession in relation to handling, or S19 of pace as lawfully on the premises with you when the engine was found...

The engine number is here on the side of the engine:



but it's just about impossible to read other than on a new engine, so you'd need to clean it as said above.

Dreadful news, do hope you can pursue this - if anyone knows the lines of enquiry it'll be Ballypete

Thanks Edinburgh- something else has just sprung to mind. In addition to keeping records including name, address and identity marks (reg mark of vehicle the engine came from) I thought the law was that all scrap must be in the same condition as received for a period of 72 hours after purchase. The council could revoke his licence above and beyond any criminal offences identified if you were to complain to them and they found irregularities on inspection

Yes the battery was flat so I removed it to charge it.

My associate lives next door to the yard, has access to it and knows all of the employees there. I have to protect him.

Looks like they have cctv, this is something I'll mention tomorrow when I go to provide more evidence at the station. They'll probably have wiped it by now though.

There was no competent vehicle examiner, just a standard policeman with no mechanical knowledge. Can an engine number really be retrieved if its been ground off?

We found an engine, I know its mine, but there is no proof.

Thanks I'll provide the picture in my evidence and see if they'll pay the yard another visit.

I have no proof the vehicle ever went in there.

The engine number isn't stamped in; it's spark-eroded dot-matrix printed, so I'm not sure the deep structure of the metal will change sufficiently to allow acid recovery.

This may be the first case of a coupe stolen for scrap. There are very few cases of them being stolen at all. You have my sympathies.

Here's a picture of the "dot matrix" engine number, it should normally be visible after some wire brushing, unless the surface has been attacked with an angle grinder, but if that's the case, it points to an attempt to conceal its identity.

However, it is difficult to access the engine number. With the engine still in the car it's at the front/far right of the block, at the top (of the block) and obscured by the coolant hose that goes from the coolant rail to the turbo, just to the right of the exhaust manifold. So if the engine was removed in a hurry, it's likely that the manifold, turbo and coolant hose is still in place, and given that the engine number is hard to see at the best of times, it may still be there?

If you have your chassis number you can look up the original engine number on ePer, and the V5C should be correct if it shows an engine number, although it's not unknown for grey imports to have no engine number recorded.

Any other numbers that you may have seen on the block or other parts are casting numbers or part numbers, and won't match anything on the V5C.

Whereabouts in Surrey are you? I'd like to avoid parking near that scrapyard too, especially if they are keen on Porto Blue 20vts!

Wow, that's unbelievable!

Someone needs to phone them up with a tale of woe saying their coupe was broken into and looking for a replacement rear quarter glass, hopefully it still has the VIN No. stamped on it, or any other part that would tie it in to your coupe.

Good luck!

Yes, all of the glass should have been etched with the chassis number (last 8 digits, full chassis number on windscreen) if it was a Fiat UK dealer supplied car. And the chassis number is stamped into the offside suspension turret, and there is the VIN plate on the slam panel. But no other stampings (eg: on the floorpan, common on new cars these days) and the "build number" stamped into the boot is of no help unless you happen to have made a note of it before, but then again, the chassis is missing...

Is there a chance the engine was replaced at some stage? Perhaps if previous owners were forum members some light could thrown on that.

Also if they were to crush most of the car would they strip out the seats first? They'd be quite big to conceal....

But if the engine had been replaced, the V5C *should* have been updated by the owner

I doubt very much if there is any of it at that yard now the police have been there. Anything that was left would probably have been disposed of that day

What a nightmare! Does your insurance company have any advice?

If the V5 doc isn't available when scrapping a car then apparently photo ID and proof of address have to be provided. Presumably the police will be checking that out if they're already involved.

Thanks for the info. Yeah they aren't stolen because the key coding to the ecu, i.e. the immobiliser is bloody solid! Mine was towed or lifted onto a truck.

This is really useful info and I'm presenting it as a part of my evidence if you don't mind? (I'm using the picture)

I haven't updated my profile and the car was actually taken from east Hampshire, I'll divulge the exact location at a later date.

I think the engine is original, am I right in thinking that to change the engine, you change the ecu and all locks too? (if you want the same keys to works all locks)

there are no telltale signs that its ever been changed.

Nope, you can drop any old engine in. Might run a bit rough as the ECU learns it. As long as the stuff on the driver's side of the bulkhead has worked together previously, it'll run any engine.

I've had a quick look on eper, couldn't work out where to go to confirm my engine number. Would anyone mind seeing if they can get any results?

T745 WEU
chassis/VIN: ZFA175000P0062425
engine no: 1238873

Yes, Eper confirms that engine number :

Engine: 1238873 , Vehicle: 00062447 , Manuf. date: 16/10/1998

You found a Coupe alloy, a Coupe engine and your football? Given that alone would be huge grounds to arrest, Police Officers have double suspicion they suspect an offence has been committed and suspect a person has committed it. There is no need for CCTV evidence at this stage; highly unlikely but once nicked he may cough it during interview.....appallingly shoddy policing..

Have got to say that in my time in the job I worked with many people that I rated highly and would trust with my life- and then there were a few others that I wouldn't have paid in washers such was the value of their contribution...now I am on the outside I have started to realise that which one you get turning up to your door can be a bit of a lottery...

This is shocking. What is the probability of a Fiat 20VT engine being in there? Miniscule. Hope you get justice.

Yes indeed Pete and a refreshingly open acknowledgement too.

Oh and Happy Birthday!

I have unfortunately met a really evil police officer. He handcuffed me in such a way that I was in terrible pain all the way to the hospital (30 minutes), when I was having a nervous breakdown. A couple of years later I found out he had been sacked for photographing the unwell people he arrested and sending the pictures to colleagues because he thought they were funny.

Not good is it

I know it's a bit off topic but as I work very closely with the police the morale generally is rock bottom and where for many it was an aspirational career yesteryear I think all that's eroded and perhaps the dedicated public protection and service is getting difficult to find. I think short term contracts are getting discussed 'cos they don't want the pension bill at the end As BP will know many of the specialist police teams, such as vehicle crime, have been scrapped along with all that knowledge and experience. Still one indifferent experience shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush.

I'm sorry my rather heavy post seems to have all but stopped this thread in its tracks! I make no secret of the fact that I have bipolar because I wouldn't have to hide it if I had a heart condition or diabetes. The more people that "come out" the more accepting the world will be. It happened for gay folk and now it's happening for the mentally ill.
(climbs down off soapbox...)

Why don't you start a separate thread in the General section Annie? You are in august company such as Stephen Fry and Rick Stein, and I for one would be very interested to learn a little about bipolarity especially as I suspect my colleague at work has it.

No need to apologise and trust me I know where you're coming from. My eldest has aspergers and as a family we went through hell for several years until we got the diagnosis. Now that I understand more it's frightening how reactions of those suffering with mental health issues may be misjudged in, shall we say, a robust encounter with law enforcement.

But hey - this is way off topic and doesn't help poor JH with his coop..

Yeah I know, I'm sorry.

Update,

The police officer went back to the yard, and has seized the engine. I'm going to the station tomorrow to find the engine number on it

If i know scap yards like i think i know scrap yards. Id be very surprised if any part of your car would still be in that yard after this amount of time especially after plod showed an interest. Imo.

Big thanks to GrahamL, DavegG and barnacle, without your help I wouldn't have been able to locate the engine code.

Went with the police officer to where the engine had been taken to, located the number and of course it marries up with whats on my V5. We can now prove they handled stolen goods
With the fact my Alloy was there too, I think I can prove beyond reasonable doubt that the car was stripped/scrapped there.

Can't quite believe how difficult FIAT have made it to firstly locate the code on the engine, and then read it! even after cleaning it up it's difficult to read the dots that make up the code.

Well done I stand corrected what a stupid scrap man! There's some good priced models around to bump up your costs claim proof too. Doesn't make up for the cheek of it but nice one.

Sweet. I'm so glad you've got them bang to rights. Theft (especially within the motor trade) is something I find truly disgusting. Now it's not just an allegation can you name and shame them? Saves any of us unknowingly buying stolen parts.

Thats awful and quite shocking that the took the car within 24hours and got rid of most of it but kept the engine!

I hope it all gets sorted quickly and you get yourself back in a coupe!

Not sure whether to say "good news" but well done team for perseverance and outing this crooked shower. I'm sure the local press might find somewhere in their columns.....

Assuming your insurance will cough up I hope you can put it toward a replacement coupe

There is a gorgeous Sprinty in the for sale section ...

Having just sold some metal to a scrapper, you have to provide photo ID, proof of address and the metal has to be weighed. They also use your number plate to identify what you've brought in and they can somehow see the plate from inside the hut so I guess it is CCTV'd and recorded. The yard may not have known that the car wasn't theirs but they should have enough information to help.