c&b cams without slots

Hi,
I was wondering if anyone come across with c&b cams,that have no slots.Basically i've bought these cams on the forum from SUBA.Now it would be nice to know ,what the deal with these cams,please.First thing i've noticed there no slots on them

http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj418/goodluckser/02012009330.jpg
http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj418/goodluckser/02012009333.jpg

Second thing,inlet cam has no cutaway for a pin where is pulley sits,however exhaust cam has one

http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj418/goodluckser/02012009336.jpg
http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj418/goodluckser/02012009331.jpg

Few more pictures

http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj418/goodluckser/02012009341.jpg
http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj418/goodluckser/02012009340.jpg
http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj418/goodluckser/02012009337.jpg
http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj418/goodluckser/02012009335.jpg

Here the picture of NYSSA C&B CAMS,slots been marked
http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj418/goodluckser/CBcams1.jpg

Would apreciate any help,comments,thoughts.
Thanks very much

not sure if the slots are necessary, however when Barbz fitted mine he used some locking tools, then used a separate tool that was basically a sliver of steel which fitted in the slots ( although it seemed a bit pointless ).

The only bit that was a sod was removing the old variator ( I ended up making a tool to sort that out ).

they should in theory just slot into the existing timing of the inlet / exhaust cams, as they aren't a million miles off the original settings, but I'm no expert

You can use the standard cam locking tool on the exhaust side but not the inlet. The horizontal slots are used to time the cams correctly so without these you really need the C&B locking tools.

You can't time up performance cams accuratley using them slots, I tryed and failed (it ran but lumpey). I ended up getting Clovertech to do mine but had to give them the specs of the cams so they could do it.

The most accurate way of doing it would be the traditional method of using dial gauges to either measure the lift at TDC assuming you have the timing details for the cams.

That was great info,thank you guys

Could you tell me please, where i can buy C&B locking tool?
TAZ,what's your removing tool look like

You can time them this way, indeed I have done it 4-5 times now on my own car. Just need to make sure #1 is already at TDC.

You can time them up with OE locking tools.

Infact keith at AI always uses the OE tools to align, and when i spoke with him some time ago he wasnt aware that C&B made an alignment tool.

Anthrax - Those cams are C&B cams from what i can tell of the pictures. i reckon C&B just didnt slot them, perhaps you could email them directly to ask why?

Flea - your right about the TDC, its critical that its PERFECT (dial gauge for TDC) when using the C&B tool. Then it runs lovely.

Gazzella sells the adjustment tool for £25/-

I am not sure if this is meant to be the looking tool.

Rog20vt-Keith said to me hi never seen c&b cams without slots,and hi also said if you using o/e locking tools the cams will be set up as standard,thats why c&b cams have a slots to use their own locking tools to set up accurately.

Hani-you right mate GAZZELLA sells c&b locking tools,but you need slots to use it.

Doesn't the inlet have the variator fitted to the end of it which then attaches to the pulley? What are the codes stamped on them? According to the C&B website it should be:

F5T.102.280S.A (1)
F5T.094.260S.S (1)

Have you contacted C&B to enquire?

ROG20VT-could you tell me please , what makes you sure they are c&b cams

MATTB-C&B arent reopen yet.

Maybe looking for the above type numbers Mattb mentioned ???

Lum

My 16vt mild road cams from C&B had a very distinctive reddening of the metal, nothing like those!
I feel a little suspect about what they are..
Paul

Nice one Paul,look at the pictures above close you will see , inlet cam machined where markings are ,cams have slight diference in colour.Compare them to NYSSA'S C&B cams it's bottom picture ,then you'll see exactly what i mean.The most important thing there no slots!I going to ask c&b when they open,and hopefully i'am wrong with my suspicion!
What's your thoughts?

The 20VT cams dont have red the same as the 16VT ones. Did you check the numbers yet?

MattB-the numbers ok,it just hard to believe that,the company such as Colombo&Bariani supplying cams for Lamborghini engines employed in Formula 1,failed to slot cams i have.

I honestly believe,we all should know what these cams are for a future reference,just pity SUBA wouldn't join me,however hi wished me good luck, very kind of him.

Well I can confirm for you 100% that they do make cams that are not slotted. So I suggest you invest your energies into finding out how to time them up in such cases and then come back and tell everyone.

I tell you what PAL,I'he had saved loads of energy,if SUBA told me cams have no slots.

At least now people know cams exsist,and they arent DIY to set up.

I'll work it out with C&B and post it later..

PAL... have some respect

Well unless you specifically asked him if they had slots and he lied in response then you cant blame him. C&B sell sets of cams without slots. End of story. I know this because my set dont have slots on them.

As C&B sell them in this state it must therefore be possible to time them up without using the slots. Therefore they can be fitted and are in no way defective.

As the exact method of timing them without the slots hasn't been established (mention of tools and cam locks) then you cant make a statement that it is not a DIY task. To my knowledge, cam locking tools specific to these cams are available (they were offered for sale when I bought my cams).

So lets keep this thread about timing up the cams and leave out the comments about other members of the forum please.

Also, you realise that nyssa's cams have been used which is why they are shiny on the lobes?

Of course you can time them up as a DIY job, people have been timing cams at home for years. So if your dont have the easy way then you will need to use the tried and tested ways which will be fine; using a degree wheel and dial indicator.

Tools degree wheel or 360 deg protractor, blu tack, and some heavy wire or something to make a pointer to the crank pulley. For the cam end you need a dial indicator capable of the max lift of those cams I estimate 12mm, a piece of steel that a magnetic DTI holder can fix to, and the aformentions dti magnetic stand.

You will first use the dti to establish TDC on the crank, you will need a way to lengthen the dti rod to get down the bore to touch the top of the piston. You then chose to dial positions either side of tdc so the the indicator reads the same amount of travel, when you go to one position set the protractor to 0 against the mark, then go the other side and note the protractor reading it might be say 20 degrees, so half way between with be true TDC. So wind back ot that position and mark the main pulley. You cant use a DTI alone to mark TDC as there is a region at TDC where the piston will have no notable up/down motion but the crank can still move - this is called dwell.

Once you know true TDC you can work with the cam to time the max lift to occur X degrees after TDC, wind them back to wind out lft at TDC, mark the cam to the caps, then put the belt on. What you will find is that the marks will not be quite inline when the belt is on due to differences in cam to crank centre lines (hence why this timing is more accurate then the slotted method but you need vernier pullied to take up the mis-match). A better explaination is here http://www.guy-croft.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14 .

But if I was you I would take the car and the cams to a proper motorsport preparers and get them to install them as they will know the process I have partly explained, it doesnt matter that its a fiat coupe. They will need to know the cam timing figures from the colombo site like 110 degree @ X mm lift.

rich

From the C&B website

Part No. F5T.SM1
Make Fiat
Model 2000 5 CYLINDER 20v Turbo
Model with phase variator
Camshafts codes F5T.102.280S.A (1)
F5T.094.260S.S (1)

Application Road medium
Cam lift IN 10.2
Cam lift EX 9.4
Duration 280°/260°
Timing 16°-84° / 60°-20°
Timing with phase variator opened 41°-44° / 60°-20°
Lobe center angles 124°/110°
Lobe center angles with phase variator opened 99°/110°
Valve lift TDC 0.4 / 0.6
Valve lift TDC with phase variator opened 3.0 / 0.6
Clearance Hydraulic tappets

Frankly I dissagree with what some people are saying to you, I bought my C&B cams ages ago and knew only that they had mild, medium etc. Why on earth a supplier would sell you the NONE standard option without you asking for them is beyond me!
You need to contact your supplier and request they exchange for the standard options that do not require timing up, If they refuse then I suggest you contact C&B to report the issue with one of their suppliers.

Paul

Just for the record here as expalined via PM I never had them out of the packaging they were sent to me in, from Auto Integrale via Torque Italia, with C&B stamped all over them. Even if I had had them out of the packaging I would not have noticed the lack of slots as they would have been given to PowerItalia to fit.

Had I been aware of ANY issue fitting them I would have made it clear in my original for sale post.

This cams use stock phase variator? Or coming with new modified phase variator?

???

Stock.

First of all i want to apologize to people for my bad temper.
I felt that everyone would like to know what Colombo&Bariani comments are.

This is the message i've recieved after nearly a month waiting

We are agents for export for C&B
http://www.acarmilano.com

We made the slotted ones at the very beginning of our production , but now all the fiat coupe 20vt camshafts without slots.
We recommend to use the fiat original tool , that , even if not perfect becourse of the different profile of the cams , will be in any case sufficient in order to lock them ( with the standard cam position )

Now i have to decide do it youself as SediciRich explained,or take it to the Motorsport place.
Brunomoreira-it seems to me the only member who use modified phase variator,is John,however can't tell you for sure.I'm curios now , why you ask about phase variator?
Mine has no phase variator,and c&b site has nothing about it.

Thanks for posting the response from C&B. I dont think John used a different variator, but merely experimented with different timing and worked out what was best.

When I fit mine, they'll be done properly. I think that using standard timing would negate some of the benefit you will get from the cams.

A while ago I made this spreadsheet comparison of the OE vs C&B cams. Full lift on the intake cam is in a different position. Having never seen the locking tools I'm not quite sure how they work but I would agree with mattB that you might not be getting the best out of them by using OE timings.

NB the figures aren't completely comparable between OE and C&B because of the way in which different companies measure/quote their specs.

Hi,

About the C&B cams, there are plenty of things, which doesn't match with them!

Look the specification posted by MattB, it claims that intake variator changes timimg 25 degrees!! Only 18 degrees in Coupe.

Then Fiat informs the timing values by 0.45 mm lift. They match exactly with our measurements. We received Intake/224 deg and Exhaust/223 deg.
Now the C&B with same 0.45 mm lift to be able to compare them with OE cams.
Intake 234 deg and Exhaust 228 deg!!

We also made a test with Intake cam and 0.15 mm lift, with that the timing was "only" 247 deg.

In any case the C&B cams makes a good improvement in reality and we are pretty much satisfied .

The C&B timing in our cars are not even a close to OE settings .

- Jari -