LE No 197

Hi, does anyone know of or has seen this coupe recently? its on the dreaded EBay and has been re-listed due to non payer, turbo has gone and has a dent in o/s rear quarter that's about all I know. Any info would be appreciated

Thanks
Simon

LE 197 Vinci Grey

Yes there was a big post, car is supposed to be a nail, viewer went 5 hours to collect.

Either that or expecting too much for the monies.

How can something "drive well" with a knackered turbo?

Ross

Ask Mattw

Mine drives very well.....


.....for a 20v N/A!

Hi Simon

I drove from York to Lincolnshire to view this car as I narrowly lost the first auction. The chap that was supposed to be buying decided that it would take a week to pull the money together, so the seller offered me a chance to take the car at £2340. Here's my thoughts:

Good bits
Best colour I have ever seen on a coop
Interior was excellent for a 100k car
Cheapest LE out there

Bad bits
Turbo smoking badly (I knew this before travelling)
Brake discs and pads needed replacing front and back
Bad scratch on the rear
No red key
No remote plipper
No service history after 75k (I didn't know this before travelling)
Little niggles such as several bulbs not working and CD player fascia would not stay on

I viewed the car at night, and although I quite liked the chap who was selling, I decided to walk away as I was really nervous about that lack of service history. If the car needed a scratch repair and a new turbo, who's to say that the previous owner had had any work done to it at all?

Now at £1810 I might have taken a punt, but I am now the prowd owner of an X reg 20VT in Silver with 6 speed box and push button start!

Here's the first buyer, who did have the money.

http://www.fiatcoupeclub.org/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=37190&Number=458367#Post458367



Personally i think its mad what some people expect for half price.

If I was after an LE, on a tight budget and a competant mechanic, this would seem to be a good buy. What would it be worth if mint?.......£5000???

Yeh, i'd say so.

I think for £2200 people expect to fit a £200 turbo and have a £5000 car, like alot think i do.

It never happens. There isnt anything that carnt be sorted on it, and still in budget, whats a red key or an alarm fob to sort, £150. Need to get into the real world and see the so called mint £5k coupe's.

Thanks for the link Carl, any reason why you didn't buy it? Sounds like a good long term project car.

Is no service history after 75k a big problem if you do all of the major jobs? got to admit the electrics worry me more than anything else

No comment.


I thought you didnt like the LE's? You missed a bargain with my 49k'er.

Yeah I know, I've seen one for the first time since then in the flesh rather than a picture and decided that I liked it. Another bargain missed

I'll get one in the end.

Not like one of his ones, you won't...

My old one had missed two stamps in the book and was enough for people to cry about even though the car drove excellent.

All

Just notided this Vinci Grey LE on Auto Trader, and the picture is the same as the "blown turbo" one that I viewed a couple of months ago.

http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es-uk/www...00&max_mileage=

Funny, the mileage when I viewed was 105k, and this one is 82k. Does anyone reckon this is the same car?

It is the same photo isn't it. Phone and ask what LE no it is.

John

Good spot - some investigation work clearly needed.

And at 82K milage it will now have full service history if it is the same car...

why did the first purchaser leave positive feedback ?

excellent,nice one,pleasure to deal with,AAA+++ ..

Who clocked it then? It would have been fairly easy judging by the original ebay ad:

Q: is there any history with this car? 07-Nov-07
A: full service history to 75,000 including cambelt and clutch - not much after - although this car has not been modified. and is the sought after LE version....more

Any ideas where that dealer is based?

Certainly the same yellow coop next to it. Surely he is not that stupid to clock a car that a. is rare and b. so soon after showing the world on ebay.

You would think so wouldn't you...

...

I viewed the car at the dealer's house in a village south of Lincoln. It could be that the car has been sold on and clocked by a different dealer.

It all seems really dodgy. I do hope that I am wrong on this and that it is a different car, I can't believe that people would do this.........

Just done a bit of investigating on ebay feedback, and the person that bought LE 197 off the dealer that I visited, then bought a second hand turbo for £102. Has obviously repaired the blown turbo then clocked the car, and now trying to make £2000 profit. Surely this is illegal?

It certainly is!!!

Welcome to the world of unscrupulous salesmen

If it is a dealer and you can prove your suspicions, go to trading standards

If the car can be proven to have been clocked and trading standards prosecute what would happen to the car ?

Nothing. And if the dealer has his disclaimer on the speedo nothing much happens there either.

Shite i know, but its how it is.

Hardly something new is it? At least 1 in 4 coupe's i HPI has a mileage discrepancy.

1 in 4? nice odds makes me look alot more happily at all the MOT's and services tracing the mileage.

Just had a quick look at this again and ML Car sales appear to be one and the same as the ebay buyer/seller rusk-muncher, both are selling identical bmw m3 with alpina alloys.

I think he may also be connected to the mr2 forum as well. Same user name and negative posts.

Buyer beware as always.

Seems Jamest has bought this car with 82k on the clock.

And rather interestingly mentions he thinks its due a turbo? Another?

Hmmmmmm thats the rings still wiffing like i knew.

Ah well thats just one more clocked coupe on the forum. There's a few hundred more just like his.

Hey chaps,
Wish I'd read this thread before I bought the car!
I went up to Leicester last weekend to view the car, I'd had 2 coupe's before but wanted the LE one ideally. He picked me up from the station in it, took me back to the garage and from there I inspected it. No, there was no red key, a few dents and the odd niggly thing but overall it looked like a really good car which drove really well! There was no smoke from the turbo and everything seemed fine! What should I do next in light of this?
Cheers,
James.

P.s. I paid £3,800 for it!

Well, if it has been clocked and it was a trder, then trading standards the next stop... Did you get any sort of warranty for it?

Well I got a receipt from the guy, but shouldn't i just phone him and ask for my money back etc?

You can try of course - do you really think he'll play ball though

probably not...on the phone to trading standards now!

They said I'd need proof of the mileage and proof of it being clocked etc....this sounds hard but there must be a way!

Very quickly print out a copy of this advert: click

You could also email the link to the TS office. I'd act quickly as I think the advert might be close to the deletion date for ebay

cool thanks printed it off so at least i've got the first piece of evidence!

Deleted this post, misread the post it referred to

I don't think he meant that literally, I think he said it because it looked the same as his....

Gotcha Jim! Doh!

Post edited seamlessly!

Ok, spoke to DVLA, spoke to VOSA who found an MOT failure in 2005 with 93,000 miles on it! I've gotta write to him now asking for my money back and if he dooesn't respond within 7 days then trading standards take it on from there!

Excellent work James, well done..

Hope you get it all back!

I bet there are loads of clocked examples out there.

I've printed off the MOT history report from VOSA and it's so clear that this guy bought the car off ebay, clocked the miles and charged me 3,800 for it!
It had exactly 102,369 miles on it on the 19/12/2006, was sold to this guy (from ebay) and then the next MOT (which he carried out) has only 82,430. What a twat. He's going down. He's not answering my call's unsurprisingly so i'll just do it the right way and write to him.
cheers chaps for all your help!
James.

Did you not HPI it or NMR it??

What's NMR?

And no, stupidly I didn't HPI it, he said he had a report already, which looking thgough the book is from 2002!!!!
I feel a little bit stupid for not carrying one out!

National Mileage Register, this is checked on a £5 Rac HPI Check.

John

oh right, little price to pay for something quite important!
You just don't expect it from a trader!

james when you do write to him make sure you use recorded delivery.

yes thanks mate, I'll pop down to the post office with the letter and a copy of the documents just so he can see what i've found. I've already found my next coupe and after this one I'll be extra wary of anything a bit dodgy!

Most traders are dodgier than private sellers! That's why they are car traders Always seen as a slightly shady profession (no offence to any traders on here )

Yeah I know,
Some more things have come to light....following on from the ebay sell on here, i looked through some of the things he'd bought...a second hand turbo being one of them. So he blatantly fixed the turbo then clocked the speedo. Is it easy to clock a speedo?

You can just buy replacement dials from a crashed coupe with a lower mileage

Very easy, as you've found out

Two ways to do it (with the type the coupé has): fit another instrument cluster complete from a lower-mileage car or remove the original cluster and fiddle with the numbered drums. The clue to watch out for with the second method is that the drums never properly line up again, so beware of any speedo that has undulating numbers in the mileometer.

Someone who shares my healthy scepticism of car traders

I could be very wrong here, but if you look on autotrader there is a 2000 W Reg FIAT Coupe 20v Turbo Plus for sale - electric blue for £5.5k.

I phoned this earlier in the week to check a few details and asked the standard question "Do you still have the car for sale?" which was greeted with "Which one?" and once I said "The Fiat Coop" the guy on the phone started to tell me about an 82k miler LE, in grey until I stopped him and said that I was enquiring about the electric blue turbo plus and he then said "Oh, yep sorry the grey one is sold.

Looking at the autotrader picture of ML advert for the LE, and the third picture of the electric blue turbo plus (88k miles incidently) they appear to be parked up infront of the same brick wall.

According to autotraders distance calculator, "Foundary Cars" (selling the Blue one) is 94 miles from where I live and ML cars are 91 miles away. Thats either a close coincidence or a bl**dy long brick wall!

After the call earlier in the week, I am convinced the sellers are connected in some way, so anyone eyeing the Turbo Plus may want to be wary and get some proper checks done before jumping in.

That might be the Electric Blue Plus discussed a few months back on here. I think the general concensus was that it's in pretty poor condition all round.

ok,
was just about to get onto this.
The same guy bought this Coupe Plus in electric blue on ebay as well... click ...and notice the mileage....
I saw this when I went up to buy the grey one and he said it had 90k miles on it!!!!!! So again, he's clocked that one. I've had no joy getting through to him, I've sent him an official letter demanding my money back or the trading standards would take it further but I don't think he's gonna care! I hope they can sort him out, because I'm going to have no joy getting in contact with him.

Blade him for the plus aswell.

yes, that plus coupe is the same as the one on ebay. £4000 - 17,000 miles = £5500 !! Good business if you can get away with it I suppose. looks as though the bonnet is pi$$ed as well (non standard grille).

I would report them both to trading standards and tell them the connection, in for a penny in for a pound.

I expect he is watching on here as well, so just watch what you say.

he operates under 2 companies....each have different mobile numbers.


Each go through to Orange answerphones when I call, if anyone else has any joy, let me know! Matt responds to both numbers but they're both in the same location that I picked up the LE coupe from.

cool

...

Jamest, the point I think Sugerbear was trying to make, was not that you may be scared of him, but that this is an open forum and its not the best idea to go around throwing accusations until an outcome is reached.

This is for 2 reasons:

1. Its probably a good idea to keep whatever you find out between yourself and trading standards/whoever until the situation is resolved, especially if he may be watching here.

2. If it does all blow up, I don't know what the legal implications are of naming on here are.

So could you please be careful of what you are posting.

Also to everyone else, there is no need for posting types of violence!

Thanks

cool, will keep it quiet.

I'd love to fingerprint test certain parts of the car.

Would be quite "interesting" if you knew who had been mooching.

hm, it's funny to think how many people have driven this car! it drives really well for it's age (I guess!)

I viewed LE 197,defo something not right about it, just about every panel had been resprayed, badly, the front bumper didnt line up with the wings,one of the wings didnt line up with the door, interior seemed very clean though,except for a huge gap between the dash and passenger door card, and the guy tried telling me once a sale was agreed he would get all the bodywork sorted included in the sale price,why would he do that? walked away pretty quickly from that one....

how long ago was that?
I spoke to the guy this morning and said he was willing to do something about it which basically means he's admitting it's been clocked.

was a good month ago now, im sure if you spend abit of dosh on it all will be ok, good luck with getting it all sorted,its a shame there are so many dishonest people out there....

it is very easy to clock a coupe

Can we have a howto guide

ha, yeah maybe we could get a 'how to' guide so I can put the correct miles back on it!

Easy.....



Put it in reverse for a bit....



Ill get my coat

What about discussing a large price drop, the car looks the business and if you're able to get it for a low price selling it on wont be an issue.
I've been told the basic engine will go to the moon and back...the other engine parts tend to need replacing anyway. You could get a bargain for £2k - £2.5k?

The seller needs prosecuted this is only a case of 2 cars which if it were not for this forum....... Think of the other cars he has sold.
At the end of the day he pulled your pants down and tried to make a fool of you.

Yep, he needs stopping asap!

Not being funny and no offense to the poster/buyer but do you all really think trading standards will do much here?


Dont you think they aren't a little bored of hearing people come crying for buying clocked and v-car'd cars for the sake of a £5 HPI check???

Mean look at IrishAndy, not being funny but it was written all over the car and the logbook, if people carnt be arsed to HPI or even read the logbook then im afraid people will be had over.

Clocking isn't something new, look at all the rules and regs when selling. All the disclaimers. A good chunk of cars on the forum are clocked or bent with the owners non the wiser.

The only way to stop sellers doing this is to stop them selling the cars, if people hpi'd and walked away its not long before they go bust.
Unfortunately who am i trying to kid, wont ever happen

Low mileage

I know what you mean, i do feel a bit naieve when it comes to things like this, he knew i would take the bait and i'm paying for it now!

an HPi check was probably the best idea but i just assumed when the advert said 'hpi clear' it was the truth! gutted.

Well, i would accept a lot of money my way and get to keep it because it's an amazing car, obviously with the real miles it's done it would need a lot doing to it like another cambelt etc, but I don't think this chap is going to budge...

Trading Standards and the poilce will be my only saving grace...

Hi James

Any update on the trading standards complaint? How is the car running btw?

Andrew

Hey,
Yeah, trading standards are onto the guy as are the police in Leicestershire but the car is running really well thanks!

To be honest I'd just like some money back for it,
took her down to Powerfiat the other day where Rog had a look and it needs a new thermostat and radiator and just to be safe another cambelt so if the dealer could pay for these then I'd happily keep the car!

I'll keep you updated...

Cheers,
James.

Cool. I'm glad the car ended up in good hands.

Keep us all upto speed on the outcome.

James

One thing that worries me is that you are relying on trading standards and the police to reclaim your money. Shouldn't you be taking out a claim in the small claims court to recover the cost ?

Hi mate,
Yeah unfortunately the Trading Standards can only 'advise' on what to do next in terms of compensation etc, so I'm onto that as well! Will keep you updated.
James.

Looks as if the 'other' coupe that was for sale remains unsold.

Mind you the mileage has crept back up, although not quite back to the 116,000 miles that it had on it when it sold on ebay ....

The trading standards have been quite productive in this case, and the seller has had to put the mileage back onto the plus and other cars!
I'm selling mine now, as I want to buy Jon's super coop so you can look for it on ebay, although it says 84k I'll explain the story to anyone who phones to enquire about it.