16vt upgrade brake kit on PSC

as above really im in talks with ams brakes for a front set of brakes custom made for me but i dont have a spare hub and caliper to send to Keri unless someone is offering but in any cas can someone look at this PDF and adjust the measurements to the 16vt's?

http://www.keri.co.uk/wms/4P042-Punto-284mm-T20-rotated.pdf

Never mind a guy on PSC has supplied a complete hub for WMS brakes to make up a upgrade kit for the 16VT

http://www.puntosports.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=78745&page=18

Im interested in some more info though! What exactly will the upgrade include, and at what price? I suppose a larger 4pod caliper and larger discs?

cheers

dunno yet Keri is knocking up a prototype next week but there will be a 4 pot caliper wieghing less than the brembos and will have more stopping power the discs there will be a kit which will be a direct bolt on no need for larger discs or a big disc conversion.

Is this kit will fit 20v NA ?

Do some research on the 20v n/a and the 16vt. If the hubs/discs/calipers are the same than it will probably fit. IF not...then not

Interested to see more on this kit GT_SEBO, Although i dont have the cash now for it, but its a good upgrade for the future.

according to eper there different the 20n/a and the 16vt but this is down to the fact that the steering rack is different but the front calipers are the same accoring to eper so it should be fine.

im buying my kit in spring est around £400 which is a good price

any chance of aranging a group buy for this?

Im not allowed to do a group buy's but WMS are a trading company and as i believe its not subject to a GB and i will fight for good discounts as im a member of PSC with good standing, So all discounts will passed onto here for the following:

KITS

16VT
16V N/A

20VT
20V N/A

Also Keri is sorting out punto gt rear brake upgrades which are the same as the coupes and these will have the spring mechanism on the back for handbrake installation

i would like a 20v na kit, do you have a rough price yet.

how much are we talking about for the 16vT?

est around £400

cheers for the price, when will the kits be available from

Well my mate Tom on PSC is kindly supplying a full front 16vt hub but due to weather conditions a courier cant pick it up but a prototype will be made immediatly.

ill post up somemore info on the gt kit which is the same as the coupe spec's will be apart from the disc sizes obviously the coupes are bigger

look forward to it, cheers mate

Power v Piston Area:
Kit has the correct piston area (4x 1.38" diameter) to give an increase in power without dangerously affecting brake pedal travel.

Since this orignal post the brkets have been changed:
the specs have improved with lighter CNC machined, clear/grey anodised 6061 T6 aluminium brackets with tough 431 stainless inserts ("solid", not helicoil-style of course) and due to material prices etc going up the price will have changed a bit.

Kit contents: (we offer pads and lines seperately, not included in the kit)
- 2x Lightweight WMS Billet CNC machined Aluminium 4-pot racing calipers
- 2x Stainless steel CNC-machined caliper mounting brackets (These hav)
- 2x Vented 284mm x 22mm discs
- 8x High tensile bolts with washers

The lines and pads are left out of the deal due to people having there own preferences on these items but Keri does supply these

Optional Extras:
- Stainless steel 1/8NPT braided lines with teflon inners by Earls UK (AKA Goodridge) inc "straight" fittings: £30+vat/pr (NEED CHECKING ON EACH CAR!!)
- 45-deg angled fittings for caliper end of hose if needed: £15.00+vat/pr (NEED CHECKING ON EACH CAR!!)
- 90-deg angled fittings for caliper end of hose if needed: £15.00+vat/pr (NEED CHECKING ON EACH CAR!!)
- EBC Green "fast road" pads: £28.70+vat/set (we recommend Reds....)
- EBC Red "very fast road / trackday" pads: £35.37+vat/set
- EBC Yellow "full race" pads: £34.37+vat/set
- EBC Blue "endurance" pads: £37.38+vat/set
- Grooved (not drilled!) disc upgrade: £48+vat (made to order)..

im going to put the brembo upgrade on hold because these seem to offer better performance from the sounds of things. (correct me thow if im wrong)
(the brembo upgrade being putting 20vt brembos onto my 20v na) never thought the brakes on my turbo were the best anyway

yes they are a better upgrade

- Rear kits (inc Punto), while we are looking at this there are no firm plans yet. It could take the form of a big-disc kit that re-uses the existing calipers, or maybe a smaller WMS caliper plus a mechanical spot caliper+spring for the handbrake, but for the moment we need to get the front sorted out (rear kits are more than twice the work to develop than front kits!).

- Colours...black only at the moment.

- Piston sizes. The Punto and Uno take the 1.38/1.38" size (= a 6.6% increase over OEM + oversize discs), the Coupe will need the 1.62/1.75" size (= 25.8% increase over OEM, but on the OEM size disc). I ordered 6-off of each the other day so there should be stock again in a week or so (in theory!). This works out ok, the 1.381/.38 caliper on the Coupe gives a 15.7% drop in area you see, although it might be nice if there are soft pedal issues (some models of car benefit more from a harder pedal than anything else!).

- Repair kits, all service parts are available and the seals etc are the same as some other calipers making them easy to find. I don't have prices offhand as I never sell any (but it's not painful).

- Heat tollerance for track use is better as a result of 1. stainless pistons not transmitting heat to the fluid, 2. any radiated heat absorbed by the aluminium body is rapidly conducted throughout the material, cooling the hotspots, 3. higher temp rated pads are cheaper for WMS calipers than for OEM ones!!! (to be blunt!)

- Disc size, the discs ARE the Coupe 284x22 ones (in on or other of the two offsets!) - people might be able to re-use any funny grooved etc branded ones they are already running if they are in good nick. There will be future bigger kits, maybe one for the 305mm Coupe disc, depending on fitting/offsets etc.

Also in talks for a 330mm upgrade kit aswel

Thanks Steve

if these fit on a 16vt with stock rims, i would love to get my hands on a red set

Update

Keri is finishing up the prototype kit today and this will be with 300mm discs and 4 pot calipers and should fit behind the standard rims

cant wait for these to be sorted, my brakes are terrible

Would have to add that I am VERY Interested in these as an upgrade on my VIS!

Will watch this thread with interest

a video from WMS

http://vimeo.com/9987198

I thought it was time I joined up for a natter, but most importantly to point out that I'm not the driver in this video, it's a customer!

hi keri, any updates on how these upgraded brake kits are coming along, im very interested for my 20v na, cheers

Well the 16vT news is that I am looking at the kit, bolted up on a 16vT hub, and it all fits perfectly! I'll get some photos up ASAP - I have two kits for now, but can only guarantee the 16vT hub fit, and we'll need to work out brake line specs with the first buyer as I don't have a car to hand sadly.

Re the 20v n/a I suspect the offset is different, can anyone confirm? Here's the range I know of, I suspect there are three hub types (39 offset 1-pot caliper, 44 offset 1-pot, 44 offset 4-pot Brembo?):

1.8 95-96 (284x22, 39 high)
2.0i 16V 95-96(284x22, 39 high)
2.0i 20V 94-96 (284x22, 39 high)
2.0i 16V 96-01 (284x22, 39 high)

2.0i 16V Turbo 95-96 (284x22, 44 high) < My hub!

2.0i 20V Turbo 96-01 (305x28, 44 high) < Brembo

The two 1-pot types probably use exaclty the same caliper, Fiat like messing about with the offset on their hubs!

Here you go - preview!

just about to post kez

i dropped you a pm mate

Beat you! I took a few more but need to sort through them etc - also that PDF would be handy, busy busy...

are those the same brackets used for the gt ?

Very very close (tweaked)...the Coupe is M12 and a different offset!

well its looking very shiney and after all my new suspension and bearings are kitted WMS brakes here i come

you got anymore pics of the front of the disc just for the extra drool factor

so a kit for the 20v na should be available then ?

Here you go!


Also here's the PDF to test wheel clearance! http://www.keri.co.uk/wms/http://www.keri.co.uk/wms/4P150+152-Fiat-M12-298_5mm-T20-rotated.pdf
Print it, check the scale is 1:1, cut it out and give it a go, like this:

That's the plan, either the WMS bits for the 16vT will fit the 20v na, or the WMS Punto etc bits will fit, or I'll do a bit of R&D once I get a 20v na hub.

Has anyone got the various hubs to compare with each other? I could source one hub from every engine type (five?) but it would be nice to just buy the hub variations instead of the engine variations!

niff, I read that you have a spare 20v hub - would you be happy for me to borrow it to see if this setup works on your car?

It would be really handy to see if there are any variations between it and the 16vT one I have...

Just a thought, no problem if not! :-)

Also on a more general note, if anyone prints out the PDF and tries it in the 16" Turbo alloy (20v and 16v?) could you let me know what the result was? Or any other wheels the Coupe tends to have for that matter maybe!

the spare hub i have is having to go on my car as there is some play in my old hub, i need to do this before the end of this month for the MOT so if you can hang on till then you can have the other hub, there is play where the wheel bearing goes so this should not be a problem for what you need it for.

Gotcha - that sounds like a plan maybe? The play means I can't take "reference" measurements off it, but I can see if it's very close/the same, or totally different and what the comparison is.

On the other hand it might be that the play isn't a problem at the hub, 1mm at the tyre is more like 0.1mm at the hub.

well if the play is a problem ill see if i can source another to borrow you, as i can always keep it as a spare.

Ill get onto it and see what i can do, i can usually get them for around £20- £30 so i may aswel get one.

That would be cool if you don't mind doing it - I normally buy the bits to keep but I've already got a whole rack of Fiat hubs so the less new ones the better! :-)

Also if I pick them up s/h there's always the risk it isn't what the seller says it is - this way it's confirmed.

Well, here's the "what's in the kit" product shot, hot off the press!

looking good keri

Now, if you did this with a bigger disc, then i would be very interested.

if i can get everything that comes with the kit, without the discs (i'm getting a new Brembo pair) and it's just a straight on swap for the average mechanic and it's red....i will sell one of my kidneys!

of all the upgrade kits i've found for the 16VT, this looks the best by far!

what kind of brake pads fit in the caliper?

Cheers!


That will be the plan - the next size up WMS caliper and 320-330mm ish discs/rotors.



The kit doesn't use standard discs (not a huge mod though), what size ones have you just bought? EDIT - Ah, do you mean the 305x28 "Brembo caliper fit" discs, or "cast by Brembo"?

Any mechanic should be able to fit the kits very easily as long as the torque ratings are used. The only complication tends to be WMS>Coupe hoses (these are not done yet).

The calipers are black only for the forseeable I'm afraid, although there's nothing stopping customers getting them powder coated.

The calipers take a very common motorsport pad shape, not a shape that was ever fitted to any car. There are pads to fit available from EBC and Ferodo via us, plus Mintex / Pagid (VERY expensive) / Carbotech / Hawk / Performance Friction and probably more I've forgotten.

The discs are cast by Brembo, but are the normal size for the 16VT Coupe, that i can just swap right now and use them with the standard caliper. At least that's what they say

So by what i can figure out, if i want to get the WMS upgrade, i'd have to get the whole package, including new discs.
And the pads are not the standard coupe ones.

That's correct, the discs you got are standard for your car and wouldn't fit the WMS kit, so you would need the whole WMS kit including the 300x28 discs if you wanted to use it. The WMS pads are also not the same as Coupe...

If enough people are interested it's easy to create a WMS kit to fit the 284x22mm size discs but I would have thought demand was low?

bigger is better keri lol im running 17's and later this year 18's if i find a suitable set i like so a BIG brake kit would be good, But will brackets be strong enough to extend the caliper that far

The Fiat lugs, part of the strut? Put it this way, the ultimate leverage applied to the strut-lugs is from the surface of the tyre at the point it starts sliding (worst case being a big wheel / oversize and wide slicks on a hot dry track, braking in a compression).

If you have bigger brakes then at this point the force at the caliper is less, meaning you can press the pedal less. With smaller brakes you have to press the pedal harder, but the force on the strut is exactly the same at the point of lockup!

The only time you can increase the MAXIMUM force on the strut lugs with the brakes is if the smaller brakes can't lock the front wheels due to a lack of power, but it's arguable that this is less of a risk than not having enough power to lock the wheels!!!!

So the bottom line is having bigger brakes would mean you can increase the AVERAGE force applied to the strut as they won't get as much brake fade etc, but shouldn't affect the MAXIMUM in most cases.

keri do you still want that hub i have, i changed it today and to me it looks like its only the wheel bearing that has gone and this was causing the play, so if you fit a new bearing the whole hub should be fine, let me know cheers

Sure that would be handy, thanks! If you could chuck it in a box (a bit of padding to stop the heat shield getting bent) I can get it picked up by UPS for borrowage? Drop me a PM if it's a plan!

i can do that, there is not actually a heat shield on this hub, will this cause any problems as they are only small things on the front hubs.

That should be fine (thanks!) - the kits are designed to bolt straight to the hubs without sandwiching that bit of heat shield anyway. This is partly because people take them off, partly because they rot and fall off by themselves, and largely because the guy who thought of the idea at Fiat many years ago needed a slap for such a nasty idea in the first place!

i agree totally. the rear shields are even worse, i have just bought 2 new ones, think im going to get them powder coated or something.

Ill pm you later once ive finished work to sort out the hub, cheers

It doubles the number of mating surfaces, and the errors caused by any paint/dirt, and after a fews years makes a perfect rust sandwich! Just to save the cost of an extra M6 screw.


Cool, speak to you later. :-)

is this all sorted now how much for the package?

The 16vT is sorted other than brake lines, the 20vT and other types aren't yet as I don't have any hubs to work with.

ok thank you will wait until the pipes are all sorted, will they be a direct fit? actually I will just pm you what I need and will go from there thanks in advance

The kits are a direct fit (calipers on brackets of course), I won't know exactly what spec the brakes are until a kit is fitted to each version of the car....unless anyone's got some old lines lying around I can get the basics from (or more likely confirm they are very like the other Fiat lines)?

Loooong time since I posted, sorry guys!

Quick question, do people fit the 16" 20vT wheels to the 16vT often?

yes

Can you do the 16VT kit with 305mm rotors? And will they fit with 20VT wheels?

I was sure I'd posted here about the new kit that does just this? Strange. Anway (16vT hub, 20vT 305mm disc, 20vT alloy, WMS T30x caliper):







This is the first/prototype kit, I'd just like to apologise to Piero for the time it took to develop and ship - sorry!!!

how much is this kit for the 16vt?ill be looking at options this year.thanks

No problem Keri!!

Guys hi have to say that the quality is fantastic, i still haven't tried them out but im going to the circuit this weekend so ill be able to tell you guys the overall of the kit.

Its very easy to fit no problems att all and no mess.

I have to thank Keri for his good work and for finishing to help me out with some bits.

crgracing:
Glad to hear things are going well, first/one-off kits are always a bit more work than "production" ones! :-)

GS_Racing:
The 305mm T30x (larger) caliper kit is in the region of £650+vat (plus pads and lines).

The 300mm T20 (smaller) caliper kit is £438.89+vat by comparison (plus pads and lines).

5mm has never costed so much!

Ah, it's the caliper that makes the difference!

The T30x is a beast of a caliper, with a "mono-bridge" design. This makes it lot stiffer (see the triangulated bolts), but adds cost due to the extra machining. And it's bigger!

Scuderia I can guaranty that the calipper is enormous.
I first tought it wouldn't fit .

Keri if you have a chance ive sent you a pm , chek it out please.

Regards.

Here are some pics so that you guys can see what it looks like and how well made they are. Ill be back on tuesday to give my opinion on the brakes, this time on track!!

http://s814.photobucket.com/albums/zz62/piero134/?action=view&current=IMG00055-20110615-1107.jpg

I actually got a video from another guy at Spa today (also running 300mm WMS but on a Mk2 Punto HGT).

Great looking track, I want to have a go!

http://www.youtube.com/user/sh0Oks?feature=mhee#p/u/0/r8hI8os_cUE < Spot the Coupe at 9:12!

Well well!!! what a day a ther track!! i have to admit that brakes are better than i thought , the biggest problem is that i didn't have a camera to film it but i promise next time there will be.

Well what can i say about this kit ( i can't compare with brembos as ive never used them) the braking is very clean and it dosen't block the wheels instantly. I like the feel of the pedal as its not soft but either very hard unless you put your foot down a bit. The feeling through corners is great as is give just what you need to brake the car, as on standards if you brake to much it eventually blocks.
The diference with standard are enormous.

I just didn't expect it to perform as well as it does.

16vT guys I now its cash, but its worth it!!
as for you 20vT like a sayed before I can't compare it to the brembos as I haven`t used them.

Good to hear they are working well - thanks for the feedback! :-)

Anybody got any details for contacting Keri other than a PM?

I can't send him a PM on PSC cos I've not got 50 posts and I don't have that much to say about Puntos!!

YOu can contact him through the fiat punto forum to!

Oops, not been online for a few days, sorry about that! PM on the way in a sec... :-)

No worries I'll keep an eye on my inbox!!

for the 305mm kit with the T30x caliper, could someone supply the dimensions or type of pads I will be needing? I have to know I can buy the pads here also.

With the disc, I think that there is no issue. I can just swap it with a 305mm disc and I should be fine, right?

Could this be the cure for brembo squeel ...replace calipers on a 20vt.

The 305mm kit just uses the Coupe 20vT disc, so they are easy to get.

The pads are a common motorsport format - available from most manufacturers (its not just WMS that uses them).

As for squeel....I wouldn't like to say. That's down to a lot of factors, like pad coef-friction, disc shape....you might or might not get squeel with WMS calipers in the same way as you might or might not get it with Brembos.

A lower friction pad and grooved discs can help.

No news about WMS brake system?

I still have them and after 5 years I still have a great perforan ce.