RacingLine RR 15/09/07

Apologies for the clumsy posting but I've been unable to edit previous posts on this subject

The Racing Line is based in Halifax and comes with a good reputation, http://www.theracingline.co.uk.
They will do a club day on the 15/09 (saturday) kick off 0930 hrs with a rate of 5-10 cars at £45 each then 11-20 cars at £40 (an individual session is £75). Due to the numbers they can't offer the full mashings but it'll be the fundamental runs, prints, fueling checks etc

Interested so far:

G Man
Y20BMX
Cowboy
Eldinho
MattW
MABR
Coupedave (poss)
StradoZ (poss)

Any more

If this includes any adjustments that may be necessary then I'm in.

Thanks for sorting this.

suppose i'll have to try and get the day off then!!!

im defo looking forward to this, going to take my prv along get this set up once the fuelling is checked.

its my bday treat to me and the coop, its the only way to justify it to the missus! sad i know.

Im up for this too. £40 to check everything fueling ok is worth it.

is this still going ahead?? when do we need to pay up?

if you need to get a couple more to make up the numbers my mate wants to put his ctr on the rollers

Mark

yup - it's still on. I'll contact the RR and see what the deposit is then confirm numbers. It'll be easier for me to pay deposit then settle up on the day 'cos I'm that sort of guy Your mate will be more than welcome.

cheers, just confirmed with my mate

G Man
Y20BMX
Cowboy
Eldinho
MattW
MABR
Coupedave (poss)
StradoZ (poss)
Eldinho's mate in CTR

OK people I need to know quite shortly who are the definates for this. Those that are "poss" I've dropped a pm.

me

i'm a definate

Me too.

Replied, I'm in

One more and we all get it for £40, come on guys!

Ok that's:

G Man
MABR
Cowboy
StardoZ
Eldinho - plus mates in CTR and Fabia (?)

How's about MattW, Phil20vt and Y20BMX

Any other coopsters in the general area want to join the fun - think you have 300 bhp but in reality can't pull a skin of a custard - now's the time to find out....

yeah both my mates will be coming, feel bad disturbing the coop trend though but it may bring the price down

have you sent them all a PM, and ive noticed coupedave's name has gone missing?

Coupedave can't make it. I haven't pm'd the rest at the moment as they did indicate they were on for it. Don't worry about your mates diluting the pure breed.....

im a defo for this cheers g-man

Ok - I make that 6 coopsters for definate plus two invited guests Phil and Matt are going to let me know in a few days time.

Cancel my last - Matt's in so that's seven. This reminds me of that western when they go around collecting hired guns, what's the name now...... Cowboy - you might know

Ok - Phil's in as well so that's 8 coops in total.

Last call for any Yorks/Manchester/Lancs owners who want to come before I pay the deposit

my mate wants to come, mk2 golf with a g60 supercharger in.
this ok?

Ok - we've tipped the 10 car quota so should be £40 for the session. I'm placing the deposit with them tomorrow.

Will we get a fuel set up with the 40 charge?? If so add me to the list please

you should get bhp,torque figures+graph fuelling checked through either the lamda or exhaust.

not too sure what else, anybody add to this?

I think BMX is about right - we're not going to get the full treatment as there are a fair few turning up - but the basics will be covered. If that's OK I'll put you down as well. May be worth pming the others from your area and come in convoy

Yeah thats ok I will pm mabr see if i can tag along with him as he seems to be the closest to me!!!

gman,you have pm

OK folk the depoist for 11 cars was paid today so you better turn out! Being a tight fisted Scot - if ya dinnae then I'll hunt ye doon and squeeze ye till yer eye baws pop oot

No worries mate but I may not be able to respond till Monday.

MABR did you recieve my cheque for the prv you said you would sell me?

I have Pmed you 4 times and you have not responded!!!!

if you have sold it to someone elce please say so as this is just messing me around!

you coming too then Tomo?

Is there a chance i can still get on this?????

What's the plan time wise?

There's a chance I might not be able to get there until around lunchtime, if that's a problem I'll have to do some re-arranging.

Nah - too late Oh - Ok then. I'll let them know there's an additional car.

Stradoz: Kick off is around 0930 hrs so lunchtime isn't a problem. The last reckoning are 10 coops plus 3 additional cars at approx 30 mins each car - could be a full day. Get some pics while we're at it

So hows this gonna work... 1st come 1st served or what???

Do you want me to leave a deposit or anything?

^^^ I think its pay on the day Matt

It's more or less on a first come basis. It'll be £30 to RR and a tenner to me for those who I've already paid their deposit. Any extra cars over 11 will pay the full whack to RR.

i'm guessing all the coops will go on first then the other models will go on last so they don't have to keep adjusting the rr?

if so i may come slightly later as i'm with a ctr and fabia and even though i like watching rr's i don't really fancy watching it all day!

Mark

You're probably right. It's likely the local contingent will arrive first but this rr is the first for me so i'll probably hang about for most of the day.

I'll be there at the start of the day, not far from here.

ill be there most of the day as my mate is having his golf rr too, any convoys fancy meeting up on the 62 west bound?

I´ll need to get there first thing as this date clashes with a big family anniversary.

Only reason I´m being "allowed" to attend is that I´ll get back ASAP.

Well when you return off your hols give me your postcode & i'll be at yours what ever time you say

What will the full whack be?

"Full whack" £40.

Well, i probably wont be there early! Not too much of a weekend morning person myself.

Seriously though, if i needs to be there for a time let me know, guess i'll be there around lunch time.

Cheers.

I know I'm hijacking this thread but hey i started it If anyone's interested in a K&N induction kit I have one up for grabs - say £20. I'll bring it with me on the day.

i think i will probably be getting there for 11ish.

might be an idea to get a little list of what order we are going on the rr. saves lots of time because you know when you are on next and you can get your car ready. no messing around then.

i've been to an rr day before and at some points everybody was standing around trying to decide who was on next!

Mark

We can give it a try Would anyone be interested getting there earlier if the RR open at 0900 hrs - MABR?

Kick off:
MABR
GMan
Eldinho....

i'm being a pain in the backside aren't i

I think its a good idea getting a list together Well i'll be in convoy with Marb so there So can i go 2nd on the list please

well if youre offering me a lie in...

just put me in the middle somewhere.

Yup you can say that again

Ycoopturbo - agreed you can go 2nd. I'll be arriving early so may go after you. This list is breaking down already and it's only be running for 30 mins

Yep, that'll work for me.

Would it be easier to put time slots up then let people put there names next to a time??
i.e;
0900- MABR
0930- GMAN
1000- ELDINHO
1030-
1100-
1130-

etc etc
Just an idea, tell me to sod off if u want!

good idea

0900- MABR
0930- YellowcoupeTURBO
1000- GMAN
1030-
1100-
1130-
1200- Eldinho
1230-
1300-
1330-
1400-
1430-
1500-

0900- MABR
0930- YellowcoupeTURBO
1000- GMAN
1030-
1100-
1130- MattM
1200- Eldinho
1230-
1300-
1330-
1400-
1430-
1500-

0900- MABR
0930- YellowcoupeTURBO
1000- GMAN
1030-
1100-
1130- MattM
1200- Eldinho
1230-
1300-
1330-
1400- Golf with g60 sc
1430- CTR
1500- Fabia

0900- MABR
0930- YellowcoupeTURBO
1000- GMAN
1030-
1100- MattW
1130- MattM
1200- Eldinho
1230-
1300-
1330-
1400- Golf with g60 sc
1430- CTR
1500- Fabia

0900- MABR
0930- YellowcoupeTURBO
1000- GMAN
1030-
1100- MattW
1130- MattM
1200- Eldinho
1230-
1300- Phil 20VT
1330-
1400- Golf with g60 sc
1430- CTR
1500- Fabia

Is there anything the RR virgins need to know, any setup or things we need to do before it goes on?

Just to make sure your car is topped up with oil and coolant. i also like to let mine run for a bit before putting on the rollers just to get the turbo warmed up

i'll be trying to keep my car as cool as possible since i'll be running 1.5bar, and will also be spraying water on the FMIC

Bloody hell what kind of BHP are you expecting eldinho?

360-370

Good Shit

Yeah don't think I need to worry about that! I'm just hoping it isn't 100hp off the original 220+!!

Thank goodness someone took control of this list - it was all getting a bit too much for me.......

I meant to add I'm new to this game, however a mate of mine with a TT said another owner got his clutch sha**ged 'cos the RR revved it up to 5000 rpm before letting in the clutch for the power runs. Does that make sense, am i going to do untold damage to the car, the ship cannae take it cap'n.......

gman you've done a top job so far, i wouldn't like to have all the hassle of trying to sort 13 cars out.

never heard anything like rr's revving up to 5000rpm before lifting the clutch

can a be a strain on the car because its getting nowhere near the same amount of cold air into the engine. they normally do it 4th gear so your car will be going over 120mph in a sense, and the fans are good but not that good.

as long as your engine is relatively healthy you'll be fine you do worry a bit when your car is on the rollers though!

Am a Virgin RR'er & now you got me worried, i dont want my baby blowing anything


Once the list is compleate i will print off a copy & bring it with me, that way we can mark each car when its done

don't worry about it, just enjoy the noise

this might be the most organised RR ever lol

can we have printed directions for each of us from our houses (just kiddin)

nobody is marking my car!!!

I may be up for coming along to this, however the Mrs has us penciled in for something else which may get cancelled.
Is it a turn up and test or do I need an allocated slot??

Would like the car RR'd to check fuelling etc.

Cheers

Dan

Well that idea seems to have worked.

I'll also be a RR virgin but as I'm up first my coop should be a standard 220 (oh I hope so ) so hopefully will give a target for the rest of you to beat.

Last time i went on a rolling road, they had a f**king huge fan in front of the car-blowing air into the engine to simulate air flow when driving. and then all they did was gently change gear til they got to 4th let the revs go as low as poss and then basically put there foot flat on floor and booted right up to rev limiter. they did that about 3/4 times. i dont think its too bad on car.

I'll also be a RR virgin but as I'm up first my coop should be a standard 220 (oh I hope so ) so hopefully will give a target for the rest of you to beat. [/quote]
Mine ran 225bhp when standard- i think Fiat may have slighty understated what the coop was

Some of the above was a quote from MABR!

And is copyrighted as such.

I've pushed my time slot forward half an hour to 10:30 as I have to dash off ASAP afterwards. double booked the day, I hate it when that happens


0900- MABR
0930- YellowcoupeTURBO
1000- GMAN
1030- MattW
1100-
1130- MattM
1200- Eldinho
1230-
1300- Phil 20VT
1330-
1400- Golf with g60 sc
1430- CTR
1500- Fabia

I'm going to hang around for as long as I can to get some piccies and hopefully my coop will still be in one piece for the return home.

What front tyre pressures are you guys using.
I guess its quite important.

hadnt thought about it. I'm currently using 39 front and 32 rear on 215/35/18 tyres. should the pressure be adjusted for optimal RR performance?

I wouldnt have thought it would matter-if the wheels start spinning while on the rollers they put a load of glue down

I spoke to the RR today and said there be more attending which was fine so I'd have thought come over after lunch?

On a general note they are happy to open the doors at 0900 hrs so I intend to get over 15 mins before hand.

0900- MABR
0930- YellowcoupeTURBO
1000- GMAN
1030- MattW
1100- cowboy
1130- MattM
1200- Eldinho
1230-
1300- Phil 20VT
1330-
1400- Golf with g60 sc
1430- CTR
1500- Fabia

is it just stradoz left then?

Stradoz are you ok with the 1230 slot?

i guess he'll have to be!

yeah i suppose so

are these guys not gonna want a lunch break?!?!

Lol, well I'm 'happy' with any time but I'm not promising I'll be there by then, I'll do my best.

we'll go get a happy meal for them

Are they likely to need to get under my bonnet? as i have a broken bonnet cable at the mo and don't really wanna be messing around on my hands and knees

mines broke too, about 2 seconds and i can have it popped for you.

Cheers, I'm pretty good at it too now but only because my grille is broken

Just a gentle reminder. I need to get £100 back from the deposit so make sure you have either loadsa wonga with you or a cheque book

im skint thought it was all inclusive? im kidding chaps

i'm setting off from preston just after 9 now so should hopefully be getting there for 10ish!

me too, along with the g60 mk2 golf and a redtop corsa

See you tomorrow boys! looking forward to it. going to get extremely drunk now. Matt

see you all at about ten.

be there around lunch time

I'll be there at stupid o'clock.

I'll be there ASAP sometime around lunchtime hopefully

with me in tow

Bugger that - you've got the Sat Nav.

Dont follow him then!

I'll be there about 10.

Good day out and glad everyone made it. Bit of an education and I'll beat Matt to it - Superchip 1 Gtech 0 Also impressive how the non modded cars performed - Stradoz on P reg with 113k on clock - snip under 220bhp

Good to some pics soon.

Any more info??

Ross

Got back couple of hours ago, interesting day to say the least!

Some of the runs were close to what people were expecting and then others were quite a bit below including mine.

I was expecting 360-370bhp as this is what Doctorfrag has got time and time again at other rolling roads which i have graphs of in my coop folder.

On the day it got 325bhp/280lb-ft, earlier it had got 319bhp!

My main reason going today was to check the fuelling was ok, but i haven't actually achieved this because on my 3 AFR charts they are a bit inconsistent.

The guys there also were having a problem with the RPM, don't the full details to this but were saying the revs were out approx 500rpm. I have done a quick search and on the Lancer register they had a RR day a year ago and were a few comments on the same issue. This says to me they don't really maintain the dyno too much.

Anyway, whinge over! The car is superb on the roads and feels the same as the first day i've got it, so taking the results with a pinch of salt! I actually tried to get the car on another RR today at TDI north, but couldn't fit me in so will be going in a couple of weeks!

Very well aranged by Gman (alan) and was good to meet a few more people!

I'll let everybody else post their results and views up!

One last damper on the day, my mate in his CTR has got a very big dent halfway down his 2 week old £450 buddyclub exhaust!

Sorry to here about your mates exhaust - when did it happen? Not sure about maintaining the dyno? Cowboy's was almost spot on to what he expected as was MattM's. Standard coops were almost at book values. Wasn't your mates CTR more or less spot on? For some of us the biggest shock was the Gtech1. A few of us had almost identical set ups ie Gtech1 and K&N and were posting 225-240

Anyhow glad you all made it back safely.

I thought you were gettig less than that with the gtec 1's.

I think 5-20 hp increase for a generic £25 chip isnt bad going. Imagine when your talking a few bhp theres quite a few other variables effecting the resulting bhp.

Well, i was chuffed anway, 225 at the flywheel with a panel filter and a greddy boost controller.

Was a well organsied day, despite the dissapointments. Cheers for the efforts Alan!

not too sure when it happened but probably when they were trying to get it on the ramps, they had a bit of trouble getting it on the ramps aswell as mine. Also his results weren't quite what he expected, especially the torque figure which was at least 10lb-ft lower than a standard CTR.

Anyway I should be going on the rollers again in the near future, so may shine a bit more light! Think yellow20vtbmx might be going on again as i think he was disappointed with his results, think he got 212 at the fly with a FMIC Gtec and cone filter??? would be good to know what the same coops get on different RR's! The one other thing that worried me was that on my graphs it showed that i peaked at approx 1.3 bar, but on my Blitz EBC it showed that it had peaked at 1.46

anyway, i still had a good time and am going to drown my sorrows with a few shandy's tonight

Once again thanks for arranging this gman!

Mark

thanks for sorting this gman,heres some pics of the day
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/cowboykarl/patsphotos020-7.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/cowboykarl/patsphotos007-8.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/cowboykarl/patsphotos008-11.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/cowboykarl/patsphotos009-12.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/cowboykarl/patsphotos010-7.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/cowboykarl/patsphotos011-7.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/cowboykarl/patsphotos012-6.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/cowboykarl/patsphotos013-6.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/cowboykarl/patsphotos014-9.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/cowboykarl/patsphotos016-6.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/cowboykarl/patsphotos017-7.jpg
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/cowboykarl/patsphotos018-7.jpg
think this pic is the best
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g45/cowboykarl/patsphotos015-8.jpg

after going on the rr with you guys, i went to get some food with mates at a cafe, on the way home following my mate on his road bike upto an unsuspecting hump back bridge he went over no probs, not knowing the road really dropped away, so i managed to launch the coop 30+ feet down the road manage to stay straight but i shit myself and ive cracked the sump and ripped the undertray off.

ive not checked the rest of the car over but i topped the oil up befor nursing her home hoping its only a sump!

what a shit day!!!!!

Ouch ben!! Not good...Best to get it fully checked dude. My mate done over £1500 to a cavvy a few years back when he done the same thing..


Ross

116k nearly 117

Thanks for organising this G_Man, was good even if I only made it for 45mins or so!

Pretty pleased with the results (10yrs and 116k and still pulling 98% of it's original power with nothing modded ) and I now know I need a PRV!

Was great to meet some other Coupe owners (my first meet) certainly looking forward to the next one

Oh, apologies for not knowing who it is but Scotts green who waved as we parted R*** KBU - your n/s breaklight is out, think it was the guys who've been to the nurburgring

Sorry to hear the bad news about the sump mate, hope its nothing more serious!

and cowboy, get that greddy fitted, made a big difference to my 16vt, and will also save you on fuel consumption!

I am totally baffled how coupe's totally standard can get more bhp than one with a gtec and other mods etc etc. obviously condition of the car comes into play, but i beleive before i got there today somebody got 180 odd bhp with a modded 20vt coupe?

i should be going to glasgow to meet up with h2ypr (ross) for a RR, so will be good to compare 2 quite heavily modded coupe's. maybe we might also be able to do some side to side road tests where it really matters! Should be very noisy

Sorry I've not been able to post earlier - family celebration and a very slight hangover.

Firstly thanks to Alan for arranging what turned out to be a well organised, smooth if slightly surprising event.

I was one of the first three on the rollers but all of us had the same setup; Gtech1, PRV and a K & N (cone or panel). Mine only came out at 234 and that was overboosting to 1.4Bar. Due to the overboost, I wanted to take the car back to standard asap which Craig (cheers mate ) did by swapping the chips over. IIRC Craig got 231 and can't remember Alans but I'm sure he'll post up. TBH, I think all three of us were expecting @ 240 - 250 so slightly disappointing. There's deffo more in Craigs as the PRV was wound down slightly.

The day turned up a few shocks for people but Cowboys estimate was almost spot on - claimed 280, got 278 - not bad for a chargecooler Karl.

Nice to meet up with some old faces and meet some new ones as well. I will be going back on the rollers once the Greddys sorted and a few bits and pieces.

Ben - I hope the coops OK mate.

Nice to see the hybrid is still giving good results there Karl.

you know me guys it'll be fine once ive skinned my knuckles etc,

ive been under the car this morning and its a tiny paper cut size crack behind the 4bolt exhaust mount just befor the cat.

as ive landed the bumper flexed up and its scuffed the whole under side of the fmic, ive checked all the wishbones,linkages,suspension and cant see any noticable proplems itll be on the ramps at work tomorrow and ill check the front without any load.

thanks for the support guys

MABR - I was 220 at slightly under 1 bar and 226 at a tad under 1.2.

Thanks for thanks lads and also thanks to Eldiniho for sorting out the bating order.

Yellow - hope everything's OK after you've had the coop on the ramps. Let us know how you get on.

Hi there, good to see you doing a rolling road, however the results are way off what has been found on many other rolling roads.

a standard Coupe running 1.2 bar achieves 250bhp, maybe more, and the GTEC is rated at 250-260 bhp which has been shown time and time again on various reference roads, so to get 'only' 225 bhp suggests the rolling road is out.

Remember, the road measures torque and extrapolates via revs to get bhp.

If the rolling road was out by 500 revs, this would change the figures by 500/5250, therefore 225 bhp would *really* be 246bhp, and Eldinho with my old Coupe would be 355bhp, and I have over 50 rolling road runs at different rolling roads to show it should do 350-370 depending upon atmospheric conditions etc.

Joe

I'm no expert with this however how do you account the standard coupes returning what they ought to plus Cowboys and MattM's were almost bang on to what they anticipated As MattM pointed out he spent a few hundred notes getting it superchipped and a proper map to achieve 255 - is it realistic to expect the same from a chip through the post. I know many owners swear by them and indeed my power delivery is smoother and the cars more economical but gaining an extra 25-30bhp, I dunno......

G_Man, what was your result with the G-Tech?

You would think if it was showing lower than it should then the standard coops would be much lower, however, if people are going to argue that then I'm happy since it means mine would be outputting more than manufacturer's spec.

Well.... quick question fraggers...

500/5252 would be the calculation for torque? So the torque figure maybe lower...now torque is what is actually measured from the rr, then converted to bhp? But this throws everyones results right out? How would this happen?

Ross

On my first run (slightly under 1 bar) it was 220. On the second when the lads adjusted it to almost 1.2 (for the Gtech1)it was 226. I recall MattM expected 255 (which he got at a previous RR) and I think he posted 256 so no issue there Have to say I'm intrigued now so I may book myself in for another run else where for a comparison - like Well Lane......

I've never been to this dyno but I am assuming it is the standard type of coast down dyno.

Normally they calibrate the dyno rollers to engine revs, so they can then extrapolate engine revs from roller speed. There is an ideal range of roller speed, so they will choose the 'gear' in the car to achieve the ideal roller speed.

If they do not calibrate correctly ,or the rollers themselves are out (poorly calibrated maintained etc), then the extrapolation to revs will be incorrect.

I think it was mentioned somewhere that the revs were out by 500rpm, if they think the revs were less than they actually were then the calculation to power will show less power.

Bhp = revs x lb/ft/5250

Rolling road days can often be a source of frustration, especially if peeps don't get what they were expecting ,that's why I used to go to several different dynos.

The Gtec 1 chip will generally mainly increase power due to running higher boost levels, so if you fit one then take out the ebv, and run stock boost, then you won't really see much improvement.
You really need to run higher than standard boost levels to get increases in power.

It would be interesting for everyone to list their modifications (or not) the boost level run and their results.

Joe

G-Man, time and time again a Gtec1 coupe running 1.2-1.3 bar will see 250-260bhp being otherwise standard.

joe

Yeah agree with what you said dude. Because of the run down date tho, it might not be the increase that would expected from running 500rpm out...

Eldinho is comming up here for a direct comparison against myself. Will be using a dastek rolling road i believe, so should be a good comparison. Its a new rolling road aswell.

Ross

It all depends on boost control method fraggers. Its the boost at redline which causes the problem. The torque figures would give a better indication of the rollers.

Ross

Joe - as an example, mine was running a Gtech1, PRV, K & N Panel and a BlueFlame Cat-Back exhaust.

I knew the car was overboosting to 1.4 Bar but it still only managed 234 BHP. Was hoping for @ 250.

Before it goes back on the rollers, I'll be having a Greddy EBC fitted. At the moment, the standard chip is back in and the standard EBV is in operation.

Check ur boost at redline mabr.... also what was your torque? running 1.4 it would be around 270-280lb/ft.

Ross

MABR, what was your midrange boost level? , PRV's can overboost a fair bit?
Has been shown that this setup will see 250bhp often enough



Yep, I was referring to midrange boost levels in otherwise standard cars.

h2ypr, yes Dastek rolling road should be a very useful comparison between Eldinho's setup and yours

Joe

Mine was hitting 234 at between 5500 and 6000 RPM. Power started to tail off after 6000.

Sorry, forgot to say that torque peaked at 240 at 4250 RPM.

Bugger - you're too quick for me!

Boost peaked at 3500 RPM.

Hi Joe

I was looking forward to your comments on this, I knew you would have had a few!

It is quite strange how a few people got very low figures and then others got what they expected!

I will try and get the graphs up in the next day or so, so you can have a good look. I'm not really too fussed on the power figure as at the end of the day it is just pub talk, the car does itself justice on the road My main aim was too make sure the fuelling was ok and everything was ok, which i haven't really accomplished as the results aren't consistent.

Also i will be sending a PM shortly regarding something else.

Mark

RacingLine appear to have a DynoDynamics rolling road. They are one of the best for WHP measurements, I know Cyclone and Jamiepm have always liked the DD rollers. Normally on a rolling road day, DynoDynamics use a "shootout" mode which simply calculates wheel torque based on the acceleration of the roller mass. This is a very accurate and repeatable measurement for WHP i.e. the mass of the rollers never changes, which a lot of people prefer. However, the fly power does not use a coastdown method therefore they simply add a fixed % drivetrain loss to give you the power figure. If you have your wheel power figures then that may give a better indication. I think it very unlikely that calibration is an issue so need to look at other issues.

I think ATW it was 279bhp. which i beleive is still 30 bhp less to what Joe used to get!

The issue with the RR being out by 500rpm and has been like that for a year doesn't fill me with confidence!

mines got a fmic,gtec1 k&n filter and prv set at 1.1bar was expecting 250ish,

first run made 212at the flywheel that was my best run, dissapointed to say the least.

then i turned to coop into the general lee!!!!

Hows ther carbon fibre splitter Ben?

Now good i imagine.

fine the whole bumper flexed up 6inches and scrapped the whole bottom of the fmic

sorry I had to rush off yesterday, just got back now.

My results were 215 bhp at the fly, 180 at the wheels, with:

Gtech 2
GTi-R Hybrid Turbo
Pace FMIC
Straight Induction pipe
K&N Cone
Blueflame 3" turbo back with decat
Forge DV006
Walbro 255 fuel pump + wiring mod
Blitz i-D 3 boost controller just under 1.2 bar at 4500rpm according to the graph.

I was expecting upwards of 250 bhp so 215 was disappointing, just had a full service at motormech and engine and turbo are in excellent condition. I was told the reason it was down was because it's running rich.

2000-3750rpm = 14.5 ~ 15 AFR
3750-4250rpm = drops to 11 AFR
4250-7000rpm = drops to 10 AFR

Any advice? Would I be better switching from Gtech 2 to Gtech 1, or a different chip altogether? I cant afford £500 for a live map!

Thanks

Gtech 2 shouldnt be running that rich at redline. I would agree that your richness is causing your power loss top end...

What is your water temperatures like?

Also 14.5 afr is rather lean for that point in the rev range... Seems as if there is another problem.. like a sensor that is causing mixed figures... what boost was it running between 3000-3750?

Ross

Once warmed up the water temps never go above 90 or below 80.

Boost graph is as follows:

3250rpm = 0.3 bar
3750rpm = 0.7 bar
4300rpm = 1.2 bar

I dont know which sensors do what, too many of them!

Thermostat sounds ok.

Boost figures are VERY LOW for those rpm's. Would explain why the fuelling is like that aswell... there isnt enough boost to trigger the increase in fuel. What boost at 5500rpm/6000rpm/7000rpm?

Ross

between 4300 and 7000rpm it drops down to 0.7 bar according to the graph, which is a far bigger drop than it used to. I tested it a few months ago and it was keeping 1.15 - 1.2 bar at the redline from 1.35 bar peak, but I'm starting to think that might have been wrong and it has never really held that much, because recently the boost gauge pipe split and after it was repaired the boost gauge gave a much lower reading for the same EBC settings (so i turned them up to get 1.2 bar again). I should have looked at the boost controller's reading as well before but I didnt.

Well your lack of boost at the top end will be preventing your power. Not the chip u are using. I ran 0.9 bar redline and got 264bhp with a gt28r... so boost at redline and holding the boost is imperitive. Maybe someone resetting up the boost and getting the correct figure? Have u checked all your boost pipes etc? Do you know that the boost controller is working?

Ross

Pace FMIC and running rich are your main problems I feel.

What are the possible causes of boost dropping so much at the top end? If my redline boost was 1 bar instead of 0.7 bar would that difference correct the fuelling ratio and give me a good BHP figure at 5500rpm?

I'm considering exchanging it for a totally standard coupe and never touching modifications again! I'm out of my depth to be honest

If you got 1 bar and changed the intercooler as Matty says, it would make a huge difference.

Ross

OK, thanks

how do I get 1 bar? what does "resetting up the boost" involve?

Well there is 2 problems as far as i can see.

1. The boost controller isnt setup correctly.
2. There is a boost leak somewhere causing problems getting to desired boost.

Resetting up the boost is putting all the settings back to 0 and running the car on base boost. See what happens. It could be a problem with the actuator?

Ross

I need to put it back on that same RR again for a longer session, editing boost gauge settings on the fly, and monitoring the effects it has on the fuelling, it's the only way I'm going to be able to understand what my car is doing, rather than asking any more stupid questions

Thanks for all the advice!

Matt



btw, I think the floor mat might have been jammed under the accellerator pedal ( ) when they did the test, preventing full travel. I remember it was pretty far up and I put it back in position before I left, but in my adsent mindedness didnt think anything of it at the time. That still wouldnt explain my overfuelling and poor boost holding though...

I think there was a small fly under my pedal preventing full travel on mine

If you're going back to Racing Line, they do a longer and more thorough test for £76.38 inc VAT or something like that, I was asking the guy about it.

I ran over 270bhp with a slightly inferior but very similar setup at two other rolling roads, your richness could be down to a mild boost leak, but would only account for 10-15 bhp or so loss I'd suspect, the rest is down to the rolling road reading low I'd suspect.

Where does the "500 rpm" out come from?

Joe

Actually Joe, Matt's low readings will be down to the fact he is only holding 0.7bar to redline...



Someone needs to post their graphs

i've got my graphs but can't upload to photobucket at work. I can email them to somebody if they would be kind enough to uplaoad them.

I'll PM you my email and post them up for you.

I'll post my graphs tonight. How much should the boost drop to at redline on a totally standard 20vt running 1 bar boost?

Your not standard though are you?

I'm not standard, but if a standard car drops to 0.7 bar as well, then I should be getting more than 215 bhp if everything else is in order...

If I had a boost leak then could that cause it to still hit the desired boost but drop off more steeply?

Will increasing the Gain on my boost controller help keep the boost at the top end or make it harder to keep boost? I've seen conflicting reports on this one using the search function.

There is something very wrong with these values - on that turbo you should see over a bar at 3,000 rpm.

You need to eliminate your boost controller as the source of the problem - if you have a mechanical valve then put that in and see if there's a difference. Failing that then join the two hoses up that go to the boost controller's solenoid and you should get base boost (do you have a 0.6 or 0.8 bar actuator?)

Once you're sure if the controller is the issue (or not) then you can think about where to go next.

LOL!, that's what I get by scan reading at 130am!!

Yes, as Matt used to get I used to see a lot better at redline, the Pace FMIC certainly caused a boost drop at higher revs, and caused peak power to be delivered earlier, less boost does mean less power, obviously.

I did run 290bhp with the unichip and a setup v.similar to Matts, running a bit more ignition advance, maybe not quite as much as his Gtec2, so I suspect we can say that Matts results are certainly not representative.

Matt, seeing as it was running a lot better before your boost leak, and now you get poor boost readings after the boost leak, checking very carefully for a leak is the way forward. Check the big thick fat pipe running to the inlet manifold, especially for cracks underneath there, mine had split once underneath. Check all your boost controller pipes, and all the hoses.

Even with the Pace FMIC you should see better boost levels earlier and higher up.

Joe

I have a 0.8 bar actuator. Is the boost controller's solenoid the silver box under the dash or the black one in the engine bay? I'll join the pipes up as I dont have a standard valve. Thanks

Joe, it didnt feel like it was running any better before the boost leak, here is what happened:

July: boost gauge shows 1.35 bar dropping to 1.2 bar at the redline. SBC settings are about 12 and 60 for gain and set

August: boost gauge pipe from dump valve splits causing comp surge and boost leak. After this is fixed boost gauge reads much lower (less than 1 bar) but car feels just as fast as it did before. I increase the boost controller gain and set to get the same boost gauge reading as I was getting before, the car feels MUCH quicker which makes me think that it was never really holding 1.2 bar at the redline, I cant see how that can have been possible.

September: It still feels as fast as it has always done.

If it's true that I should be getting 1 bar by 3000rpm even with the laggy Pace FMIC then something is definitely wrong. Could be the boost controller as above which I will attempt to diagnose tonight

OK, here are your first two runs Eldinho...

RUN 1

319bhp & 300lbs/ft

AFR & Boost

270whp


RUN 2

325bhp & 280lbs/ft

AFR & Boost

276whp


OK, some quick observations Your AFR is pretty rich on the first run, engine too cold perhaps? Your max boost is also only 1.3bar so it's not surprising you are down on power compared to Joe's 1.5bar runs. The 300lbs/ft torque is pretty good, it starts to drop off as you would expect towards redline as you run less boost. The torque curve actually follows Joe's previous PTS torque curve very well the only difference being less boost equals less peak torque. Your second run has better fueling and runs more boost but is down on torque however it doesn't drop off as quickly hence slightly more peak power.

You will notice how your fly power has exactly 49bhp added to the wheel power in all three of your runs. This is what I mean about the DynoDynamics rollers not using a coastdown method for fly power but simply adding on a fixed number. In reality your wheel power is the most accurate figure for these dynos and is the preferred choice in USA. Can I ask if all runs were done in 3rd or 4th gear as it has been hand written as a correction on two graphs with 3rd gear. The gear used will effect transmission losses and whp i.e. you get higher wheel power in higher gears. This is shown by you getting 6whp more in your 4th gear run compared to your 3rd gear. Based on this you can't really add the same fixed transmission losses as they have done but that is the way DynoDynamics do this. Most users like the whp figure as it is very repeatable and therefore accurate to monitor changes/modifcations.

All in all, good results and should be happy that all is well with the car

IIRC they used 4th gear on most of the coops but did run a couple in 3rd.

They ran mine in 3rd for some reason

mine was in 3rd as well.

Leighton

As you say on the 1st graph it shows that the boost peaks at 1.3bar. but when i checked what the blitz had peaked at it showed 1.46! This run was done in 3rd. I then asked if the next run could be run in 4th.

Also the engine wouldn't have been cold, it didn't actually have that much time to cool down as i was on the rollers quite shortly after i had arrived from an hour journey.

On the third graph the AFR is quite similar to the second run, fuelling around 11AFR.

After the first run I could have quite easily put the boost up, but didn't feel it was worth risking anything for what i thought was a misreading RR. And also i was expecting the boost to have peaked a bit higher in fourth. I forgot to reset the peak boost on the blitz after the first run, but it never peaked over the original 1.46.

But when peaking at 1.46 I would normally expect the boost to be highr than 1.2 at redline, it is usually around 1.25 on the road.

Mark

Just to add the third run was done in third gear, they did this without me knowing. I think most of the runs for everybody else were in 3rd.

Then again I could be wrong.

What does the boost actually read on your mechanical gauge as this will likely be more accurate than the Blitz for an absolute reading especially visually seeing what it spikes to? The heat won't be an issue on your first run especially if they have a good fan. It is only after a few runs that it starts to loose power from heat soak. That said, Joe does like to do the "max power" runs when the car is left on the rollers overnight so it is stone cold in the morning with cooler ambient temps... that does give you an extra 10-15bhp

The blitz seems pretty accurate when i have compared it to the boost gauge, although it is quite difficult sometimes as one is in bar and the other psi.

The other thing that concerns me is that on all 3 runs the line stops at different RPM!

I'll crank the boost up next time

That is normal, as soon as the operator starts to see bhp drop (or even stop climbing) he will stop the run. Obviously this could be at different rpm points based on the current variables.

Black one in the engine bay - join the hoses up and you should get 0.8 bar with that actuator, if the boost is lower than this you have a leak or dodgy actuator.

I'm pretty sure he hit the limiter each time!

Cheers for posting the graphs up Leighton!

Eldinho, thinking about it, we should maybe get the rr done at somewhere which will show a comparison. I.e. a dastek or maha dynometer?

Ross

Ross, have you got any suggestions where to go? Also I may be struggling to make the weekend which we had originally planned may have to be the week later. Also would like a bit of time to play around with the settings on the blitz this time!

Thanks for organising this guys, i had a great day and enjoyed meeting everyone. Chuffed with my results - 255hp with cone filter, exhaust and SUPERCHIP! this trip put my mind at ease about blowing £400 on the chip cos by the looks of it if i had gone for a gtech it would have done nothing! but to be fair it has smoothed out the power curve and improved mpg on a few peoples cars from what i saw.
Just makes me wonder if the gtech may have actually been harming some peoples motors cos some were well down on power, but this could have been anything i suppose. I dont think there was anything wrong with the rolling road, i was expecting about 260bhp but got 255bhp. had a good day though

Well there is dastek which is up here, or one of there rollers which is slightly closer. Or there is a maha dynometer at falkland performance in fife. They have a website.

http://www.falkland.co.uk/

Ross

think fife is just a bit too far to be honest ross, i think i'm a bit crazy driving all that way for a rr as it is!

Just another thought- RS tuning in Leeds have just purchased a brand spanking RR. maybe it would be a good idea to organise a day there for comparison!?

id be up for that

me too. my Blitz boost controller and boost gauge are giving higher readings than the RR boost graph gave me.

Me too so long as I've got the Greddy sorted by then.

Likewise, nice sig pic by the way matt!

Thanks, cowboy took it on saturday, great picture

thats my pic,copy rights lol,
let me no when the next one is as i will come the night before and leve it there over night nice and cold for the rr next day as flea saz, dont think it was right to travel 150miles the go stright on the rollers,plus ill have the greddy in then,sure theres more in her some were

yoink! what's copyright?

your RR results could have been worse...

could

I have just emailed rs tuning and requested some prices,will let you now what they say. For anyone interested in a proper chip-they'll do one for £350 and a rolling road thrown in

What qualifies as a proper chip?

I've still got faith in the Gtech1 chip and will put it back in (or ask Craig to ) once I know the Greddy's OK.

a proper chip qualifies as one that does something!

just recieved an email from RS tuning and if there are 10 cars or more they will charge £35 a motor for the same package as racing line did, but they are currently moving so it will be availible in 3-4 weeks

That sounds perfect for me, I've already spent my life for this month

As long as it doesnt clash with the lakes meet on 6th October.

What is the difference between a £350 chip and a £35 gtech?

Erm i dont know-all i can go off is the results from the rolling road-and it seemed to me that all the motors with similar mods to me were running less power. I had superchip, they had gtech! at the end of the day if a gtech was really that good, would he be charging £30 for it? i think that you get what you pay for. however i have no doubt that someone will have a different opinion!

Including engine damage?

I think that someone needs to do some research before making that kind of comment. The GTEC is based on a Novitec - with a reduced overboost for safety, and has been used by huge numbers of coop owners. Novitec chips are £250 by the way. Superchips have been known to overfuel badly, and the Novitec's 1.8 bar overboost created issues - though I'm sure it felt quick in the midrange.

If you're running any form of boost control then all the chip does is regulate the fuelling and ignition advance. Plenty of cars have made 250-270 bhp on a gtec if their other mods support it, but as with any plug and play chip the results will vary from car to car.

matt were you not the only person out of all of them that had a decat though? makes a big difference in my opinion.

I'm guessing the £350 chip is custom mapped for your car rather than taking a conservative / average value of what can achieved safely with a plug and play chip.

I have a decat yes, what big difference does it make?

sorry was talking about the other matt lol i wasn't there when you were there mattw so didn't know you're spec. but i think performance exhausts only make a difference once you get rid of the cat.

The exhaust gasses can flow out better - and the exhaust gasses also drive the turbo, so you get more efficiency and should also be able to hold more boost towards the redline where you make your peak power figure.

There is certainly nothing wrong with the G-Tec chip. This was the first mod I made 3 years ago and with a panel filter I had 245bhp & 245lbs/ft.

I agree, nothing wrong with the Gtech. I recently got 280bhp & 250lbs/ft.

Perhaps an idea for one of those that got lower than expected power to go back to their standard chip and then go for another run at the same rolling road and see what result they get?

I'm just taking the mick cos i was the only one with a superchip. Yes i am running a de-cat, and the superchip is just a eprom chip. however it is giving me extra power and is not overfuelling as proved on rolling road. just seems a bit odd to me that all the standard cars ran around 220bhp but the ones with gtec ran less!?

This is probably due to a better ebv in your car. Honestly.

Ross

Cheeky Monkey ;), its like the kettle calling the pot black

Mark, my 1.3 bar (midrange) runs used to give me around 330bhp, so if the boost recorded was off that would explain that, still strange that so many peeps found the same?, The Blitz records a peak value which can sometime be a bit off to the steady midrange value, I wonder where they measured the boost reading from?

Is the boost guage reading similar to the Blitz Mark?

Otherwise nice graphs, my last runs in the car were recorded with a hot car at 38degC, so ner!
Otherwise as Leighton says ,looks nice and healthy

Joe

I was the 1st on the RR & ran 231bhp with a Gtec1 & K&N at 1 bar

i was last ish on, first run made 212 running 1.1bar with gtec1 k&n filter and fmic, prv set to 1.1 kinda gutted with that performance. mate has a leon cupra r we did rolling start and the coop was much faster.

mixed feelings with the rest of the guys there about the rr, would be good to try somewhere else and compair cars,set-ups and rr's

what did your fuelling and boost graph look like?

max boost was 1.1bar @ 4300rpm. fueling at 13.2?

i understand the boost and vaguelly the afr

RS tuning is moving to armley road in Leeds in 3-4 weeks and they will do it for £35 a car if there is 10 or more cars. thats all the same stuff we got at racing line. so we should book it and confirm all these different readings!

looks like Joe and Leighton have just jinxed me with saying the car is running healthy! i haven't had the car today with my mechanic mate having the car to take it for an MOT, but he was taking it there and the car lost power and oil was coming out from the oil cap!

i'm not going to know the full extent until later this week when the head comes off! my mechanic thinks its the head gasket, but couldn't guarantee it until friday! but also said it could be lots of things such as pistons etc!

Maybe time to go forged?

Trying to remain upbeat, but it could be a lot worse, my mate feels really bad as he had the car when it happened, and is going to do the labour for free he knows his stuff aswell as he races stock cars with rover V8s planted in them! So ross we may have to delay the RR day!

art tuning in wakefield have just got a new rr aswell, guy does alot of jap stuff,seems to know his stuff, he's 5mins from work,im going to go speak to him see what he thinks

Oh dear. Glad to see you're thinking positive about it though mate.

that sucks, hope you get it sorted mate

Out of the filler cap?? Need to do a compression test and see what's happening.

i should know more later in the week anyway once my mate gets down to work on it! but he can only look at it from thursday! the one week when something goes wrong he has to be away on a course i haven't had a proper chance to talk to him yet as he's working but will post up when i get more info

there isn't much point getting down about it, it isn't going to get me anywhere, the racelogic traction control will just have to wait.

i guess it was my time to suffer the downsides of having a tuned coupe!

Mark

i'll post this on technical problems so i don't change the topic

i wish i could be as cool as you eldinho,when i took the wroung chip out of the ecu in my car(dont ask how)i had to wait 4 weeks to get a new ecu and my wife still saz to this day that thats the hardust 4 weeks she has ever had in her life,

it will probably get me down in the next few days, i think this time it might be the actual cost that gets me down rather than being without it. i only live 2 miles from work so can quite easily get there. it makes it so much better when you get it back.

hope its not to bad mate,

Just as an interesting point for everyone...

The gtech is comprised of all the best bits of the squadra, novitech, millenium, superchip, *something*star chips. So its unlikely that the superchip would be a better chip all round than the gtech.

Ross

TBH Ross I haven't got a problem with the Gtech1 chip. The only reason I put the standard chip back in was due to the overboosting problem - once the Greddy's been fitted and my boost levels are solidly adjustable then the Gtech is likely to go back in.

Here are my graphs, what do you make of them?


Graph 1 - BHP and Torque at the flywheel
Graph 2 - Boost and fuelling, plus BHP at the wheels in the top right

MattW: I still use the standard TB28 and got 274 hp / 281 lb/ft. You can see my mods in this thread: The Swedes second RR
Something is clearly wrong with your engine. You should, after installing a hybrid turbo, see at least 280-290 hp or close to that.
I hope you find the problem as soon as possible

^ Thats good results on a standard Turbo, I moved my problems out of this thread onto this one.

That's a VERY good result for the standard turbo. I could only get 240 bhp out of mine with a boost controller, FMIC (probably too big for the turbo TBA, and exhaust + pannel filter).

Wouldnt the FMIC just strangle the spool up?

Ross

Well - the top end also felt pants. It could have been the turbo on it's way out though.... no other reason for it as the engine was fine + when a hybrid went on it jumped to 280 bhp.

I was just wondering if the FMIC done anything else.... that was all!

As i have said i made crap power on the gt28r... it was all down to boost.

Ross

one more thing to say about the results for that day!

my mate in his CTR spoke to the owner of TDI North (Honda Specialists) and he has never seen a CTR with a torque figure as low as what my mate got and thought that the dyno must be wrong. anyway he's going on their rollers in a couple of weeks so will be a good comparison!

Mark

CTR's have low torque figures stnd tho? 147lb/ft against 197 bhp?

I believe with the multitude of results there *could* be a problem with the rollers, but everyone who got a low result, i can see an explanation for.

Ross

yeah they do have a low torque figure, but he got about 15/20 lb/ft lower than standard! and his isn't standard!

i dont think all people who got low figures have an explanation, what was the reason for yellow20vtbmx low figure? he got 212bhp i beleive with gtec and FMIC.

i still don't think my result was correct, and the way the boost figures were incorrect doesn't fill me with confidence.

Mark

Has he posted his graph. Best way is to go to another rolling road with a coupe who has "proven" power.

Ross

i don't think he has posted his graphs up!

i think my car has "proven" power, it has been on more than 50 rolling roads!

Mark

Sorry. I meant a car that has ran recently, and shown its power, so that if there is figures below what is expected u can compare directly with the other coupe.

When was the last time Fraggers ran the car?

Ross

Where did they take the boost reading from? my controller and gauge both say 1.3-1.35 bar max on the road, but the RR graph indicates just under 1.2 bar.

MattW, on the rolling road the blitz EBC peaked at 1.46, yet on the graph it showed that it only peaked at 1.3. the blitz seems accurate to what my boost gauge reads. also the blitz doesn't really spike, it goes to its highest figure holds it for a moment or two then starts to drop towards the redline.

ross, I think Joe took it on the rollers this summer before i bought it with temps of 38C and it got 363bhp.

Oh did he? Cool... well there is defo something wrong.... ambient temps of 38c? Did he rolling road in spain?

Ross

ambient temps?

U edited that!!!

Ross

Never

My boost controller's max reading shows 0.1 bar higher than my analogue gauge as it registerd a very very brief overboost spike.

Yep, it was in the summer , on the second hottest day of the year!, I took a look at the thermometer in the RR bay and it showed between 38-40degC!

Still there have been at least 3 other similar GT28RS owners , similar mods etc (Flea Squid etc) that have shown similar powers between 350-370bhp, Been verified at PTS ,Powerstation and the 'hallowed' perfect Touch amongst others, so my reading of 363bhp is in the same ball park.

Joe

Nah Nah told ya so lol

took a while to get these pics up, my mate took them, but better late than never

http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l172/meldin01/?action=view¤t=CIMG0740.jpg
http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l172/meldin01/?action=view¤t=CIMG0741.jpg
http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l172/meldin01/?action=view¤t=CIMG0744.jpg
http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l172/meldin01/?action=view¤t=CIMG0745.jpg
http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l172/meldin01/?action=view¤t=CIMG0746.jpg
http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l172/meldin01/?action=view¤t=CIMG0747.jpg
http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l172/meldin01/?action=view¤t=CIMG0748.jpg
http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l172/meldin01/?action=view¤t=CIMG0749.jpg
http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l172/meldin01/?action=view¤t=CIMG0751.jpg
http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l172/meldin01/?action=view¤t=CIMG0752.jpg
http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l172/meldin01/?action=view¤t=CIMG0758.jpg
http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l172/meldin01/?action=view¤t=CIMG0760.jpg
http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l172/meldin01/?action=view¤t=CIMG0762.jpg
http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l172/meldin01/?action=view¤t=CIMG0764.jpg
http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l172/meldin01/?action=view¤t=CIMG0766.jpg

Sorry didn't get everyone's cars, he took all the photos within 10 minutes or so and everybody wasn't there at that point!
Mark

this pic

http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l172/meldin01/?action=view¤t=CIMG0747.jpg

I think the power increase the Gtec gives is worth every penny for £35 notes. If I had spent £500 on a custom map I would expect the power increase. I am happy with the RR results I have got using the Gtec (not at this event) you pays your money...........I guess.