After many years of running Pagid yellows, I thought I'd try something different

I'd heard good things about Carbotech, so I decided to give them a go

They've been on for 6 months now, so I thought I'd give some feedback

Positives

At least as good as Pagid yellow - probably a bit better - zero fade, even from monster speed and repeated heavy application

Good feel - unlike the Pagid, the retardation stays constant (Pagids used to get even grippier as the temperature built up)

Seem to be wearing well - I've done about 12,000 miles on them and they look like they're less than half-worn

Negatives

They squeal more than any other pad I've used - ever! Its not just low speed, light braking - I can get squeal at motorway speeds with ease.

They're noisy - with slotted discs, they make a lot of noise when hot

Finally (and this is the one that will stop me buying them again) - they are spectacularly dusty. Its also a very dirty dust - I have just spent seven hours cleaning my car, out of which just over four hours was on the two front wheels. The dust had eaten its way into the paint on the wheels and even neat Bilberry wheel cleaner wouldn't shift it (Bilberry recommends up to 20:1 diluting for normal use). I also found that the sides of my car had a funny orange tint, which I put down to it being rather filthy (not been washed for a couple of months). However, a jetwash, followed by vigorous hand-washing failed to shift the orange tinge. So - out came a sample bottle of Iron.X - a cracking spray-on substance that goes on clear and reacts with iron. I tried some on my son's VW - it stayed clear. However, on the Coupe, the entire side of the car turned bright purple (the colour it goes when it reacts with iron)

Basically, the dust from the pads has eaten into my paint - its going to have to be clayed and mopped to get it clean again

So, if you're not overly bothered about the condition of your paint or your wheels, I can heartily recommend Carbotech, but if you like a clean car, stay away. I'll be back on Pagids for the next set.

Very good write up Nigel I've driven a coupe with these as well and I agree with the squeal didn't realise it was eating the paint though

Did you fit XP8 or XP10 Nigel?

XP8

I have the same and will keep a close eye on the paint situation...

I put these on last Wednesday and took my coupe for one braking in session.
The pads were very impressive and I enjoyed a fast (for me)road run but they squealed so loud.
I'll check the dust/paint situation and if there's an issue they'll be straight off.
Thanks for the heads up Nigel.

Exactly my experience of the XP8's..
No problem with the paint on the car yet, but the wheels yes.

My wheels got pretty bad after I didn't wash the car for a while. Managed to get them looking good again using some 'wonder wheels', acidic so not recommended for frequent use (and you certainly know if you get any on your skin!) but good for situations like this.

Had the pads in for a year now, and both wheels and bodywork are fine - I don't do many miles though, and do wash the car frequently..

Ok, I've had a look at the wheels and paintwork tonight.
All covered with a good layer of dust.
There doesn't seem to be any paint damage under the dust but I'll keep a close eye on things.
Then popped out for another run to see if they felt as good as Wednesday.
They are a joy at anything over 40 mph and are so so strong over 60 mph.
BUT under 40mph and I want to hide my head in a paper bag, and I'm bloody good looking young man (or so proccy keeps telling me ) !!
I'd like to keep them on until I've had a few laps of curborough but can I last for the 25 miles I'll cover in between ?

Hmmmm. This is concerning. I might see if I can send mine back as I haven't fitted them yet.

Chaps - don't get too paranoid...

I do huge mileage and I'm hard on my brakes. In the two months that I didn't wash the car, I probably did 5,000 - 6,000 miles

If you wash your car more often, you probably won't suffer the paint contamination that I did

Remember - performance-wise, I'd have to say that they are the best pads I've ever used (apart from some Red Dot racing pads, but they only lasted 2,000 miles!)

Nigel,

Seal your wheels now that you've cleaned them.

FK1000P

That'll see you good next time around.

Have you thought about a crystal Laquer sealant for your body work? Due to the mega miles you do I'd be thinking about getting the maximum durability protection on the car.

C1

That'll give you a year or so with the mileage you're doing. A normal wax wont stand up to the brake dust as I also found out for myself.

I use Rim-wax followed by Autoglym wheel seal

If the wheels are cleaned regularly, its possible to prevent the dust eating into the paint, although it still took me half an hour per wheel last weekend - it seems that the problem is that the brake dust is becoming baked onto the wheel due to heat.

Another development on the squeal - its getting worse... Earlier this week, I experienced full-on, properly-loud squeal at speeds that you don't post on public forums. My previous Pagids also squealed like a stuck pig, but rarely, if ever above about 30mph. The Carbotech seem to be capable of squealing at any speed - embarrassing enough in town, but cringe-worthy in the outside lane of the motorway....

Interesting, mine squeal only at very low speeds.

Well, when I say squeal, I mean more of a 'bray'

That's where a wax fails to protect as it won't be much use at temperatures of ~60 degrees C. Even in direct light in summer, wax protection can begin to fail as panel temperatures can far exceed ~ 60 degrees whereas a good, proven sealant (FK1000P, GTechniq C1 etc.) will offer a greater ability to protect over a greater variety of conditions.

If you applying AG wheel seal over the Rim Wax I'd bet that it can't properly bond to the wheel lacquer. If you want to stay with that combo you might be better off applying the wheel seal first, then Rim Wax over the top.

Some more feedback on the Carbotechs

In mid May, they started making the usual noises associated with reaching the brass pegs that help secure the pad material to the backing plate. I ran them for another few weeks, but last week, I swapped them over for Ferodo DS2500

Paul didn't mention the state of the pads, but he did suggest I take a look at the discs (M-Tec - fitted at the same time as the Carbotech pads).

Normally, the inside face of the disc (and the inside pad) wear faster than the outside, because of the extra heat on the inner face.

However, this setup hasn't gone the same way

Outer face - un-evenly worn - grooves gone in some places

inner face - not pretty (but weirdly, still showing the grooves)

Close-up - possibly the worst mess I've ever made of a set of discs

What disappoints me is that I did that to the discs in around 12,000 miles - with the Pagid Yellows, I used to get two sets of pads to one pair of discs - around 12,000 - 15,000 from the pads and double from the discs

As revealed above, I was mighty impressed with the performance of the Carbotech, but the pad wear, disc wear and excessive dusting means they aren't going to be fitted again.

I might be opening a can of worms here, but why blame the pads for damaged discs? The mtec discs carry no e numbers or any other official stamps, are not tüv approved,... I know that is all road related and doesn't mean 'that' much, but... I would at least compare with a disc that has gone through some third party evaluation, whatever the personal experience etc.

Anyway, I know 'the scene' in the uk is very much unimpressed with any official approval, but here the mtec wouldn't even pass mot (if they knew about it).

Well - we will find out soon enough....

I have bought another pair of M-Tec discs for use with the DS2500 - I will keep an eye on them to see how they last

The good news with the M-Tec is that they didn't warp - every other disc I've ever used, with the exception of the DBAs, has warped with the heat

I have a feeling that the Carbotech were simply too abrasive for general use

Agreed about the carbotech being to abrasive,my pagid yellows are bad enough.

Trackday carbotechs sounds like a good idea,then just swap them back.

How do you rate the DS2500s Nigel ?

I like my Carbotechs apart from the squealing !

Only done 30 miles on them so far and I'm still bedding them in, so not able to comment yet

http://www.ctbrakes.com/faqs.asp

Very interesting reading.

They state the pads are very rotor friendly with minimal dust, the dust is non corrosive and they are a ceramic based material, not iron.

Maybe the problem is the rotors? In your earlier post you mentioned the iron on side of car?
If the carbotech pads are ceramic then the problem may be that mtec rotors are not up to the task? And I am no metallurgist but perhaps they aren't hard enough?
I have drilled mtec rotors on mine with XP8s but I am thinking about swapping to a pair of brumby drilled rotors

I've had 3G disc's with the XP8's, twice - with no problems like that. Yes the inner side wears faster but that's normal.
I just got my first pair of Mtec's still to go on the car, but this is worrying. Especially as I'm thinking of XP10 this time.

HI Guys,
Just stumbled across this thread when i was searching around for feedback on our pads for the coupes, thought i would chime in here as feel our pads are being blamed for something that isnt really their fault, yes they can squeal on a road car and yes they are dusty compared to some brands, but the dust is not corrosive in itself and will clean off fairly easily if not left on for long periods and baked on, just like all brake dust, the problem of sticking/orange dust down side of car that Nigel has experienced is caused by the discs not being upto the pads as someone else has mentioned above and not the pads themselves, pad dust isnt a problem but mix in the iron from low grade discs wearing excessivly and you can have issues with it sticking to paint, especially if not cleaned off on a regular basis.

Our pads are not disc aggresive for a competition compound and usually i would expect 3-4 sets of pads to a set of discs which for this type of performance is very good, our pads work on a film transfer technology to get the friction levels and not abrasive friction like some other pads, this means our pads perform a transfer of pad material onto the disc for the pad to work agaisnt, giving high friction levels without wearing the disc excessivly that you get with abrasive friction pads, if the disc is of a low grade of iron (which it sounds like Nigels were from his post) then disc will wear quicker and pad film on disc is never as it should be, also this can contribute to excessive noise as our pads work best when its pad to pad film on disc.

Im not normally one to blame other products for issues with ours, but in this case and from what ive read elsewhere it would seem that these discs are not upto the performance of our pads, they still work just not as well as they could and the lifespan is shorted, as a side effect dust has higher than normal iron content which can lead to sticking onto paint etc.

Hope this clears things up, but anyone with any questions please get in touch with me.

Cheers
Ian

Carbotech Europe Ltd

Thanks for that info Ian. I am on the cusp of ordering a set of pads from you,ready for next years trackday season.

Is there a make of disc that you would recomend for the XP8 Or 10s?

No worries glad to help if i can, discs wise we dont usually see problems with most oem spec brands but sounds like those Nigel has are a little softer than most our customer use, that said any good premium brand like Pagid, Brembo or Brembo HC (high carbon) are good option if you can get them in coupe fitment, also we have a lot of mini guys who use the Nitrac Cryo'd discs with good reports.

I will have a hunt around tomorrow when im back in office at whats available.

Ian

Ian,

Thank you for confirming what I and Kayjey seemed to suspect regarding the MTEC rotors, There has to be a reason why a set of 2 Brembo Rotors are sold for £199 and a pair MTEC's sell for less than half that price.

I am more than satisfied with my XP8s. And will be buying another set when they expire.

Good to hear your happy

Cheap discs are a lottery and sometimes they are ok but othertimes they just dont last, my supplier only has SBS ones in this fitment which have proved ok on other cars but dont know about the Coupe, ive had a hunt around and see there are some guys selling genuine Brembo ones for sensible money on ebay, here is one example i spotted - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/fiat-coupe-20v...6#ht_171wt_1161

Ian

Hi Ian, good to hear from you on here!

I'm on my third set of XP10's over the last few years of my (probably the most number) of track days in a coupe.

In terms of stopping power, they do exactly that, better than any other set I've tried.

I've used them with 3G's, and MTEC discs. The last two sets of MTEC discs have warped badly on their first outing, and I have had them skimmed immediately on both occasions, as I reckoned on this initial exposure to the heat cycle being a one off reaction, and have managed to have continued to enjoy the phenomenal stopping power on track of this combo on track. Also, their longevity is better than anything I've used previously also.

So, for that, thanks

And, nice to read a constructive thread on here too