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Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" #1196257
04/04/2011 13:15
04/04/2011 13:15
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
Southsea
G
Gunzi Offline OP
Club member 189, Former Club President
Gunzi  Offline OP
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Hybrid Turbo Overview

I thought I’d put together a list of the hybrid turbos commonly used on the 20VT. The turbos are listed in a rough order from the standard turbo (least power) to the largest spec (most power) you can fit, and includes commonly referred to names.

Hybrid turbo definition
Hybrid turbos are a standard turbo which has had part of its internals changed from the standard specification and is a direct replacement for the original turbo. A GT series turbo requires a V-band adaptor or a 5 stud downpipe eg GT28RS.

The turbos which have been refurbished should have a 360° thrust bearing & staggered gap seals. These refurbished turbos, hybrid or not, will be able to safely run a decat without the risk of blowing the turbo seals, which is common for the Fiat factory fitted TB28. Each turbo has two sides, a “hot side” the exhaust turbine, and a “cold side” the compressor.

Standard Turbo:
50 trim compressor, 0.6 actuator & 62 trim exhaust turbine.

Hybrid Turbos:
55 trim compressor (Superspool Barbz)
60 trim compressor (CR Turbos Stage 1 & Power Italia Stage 1)
60 trim compressor & 0.8 actuator (GTiR Barbz)
62 trim compressor & 0.8 actuator (GTiRS Barbz)
62 trim compressor, 0.8 actuator & 76 trim high flow exhaust turbine. (CR Turbos Stage 2 & Power Italia Stage 2, FC Performance Stage 3).

Additional Information
Barbz may have supplied his GTiR without the 0.8 actuator which would make it the same as the “Stage 1” turbo from CR Turbos / Power Italia.

Power
Referencing the FC Performance Dyno Thread, the potential for any of the hybrid turbos with supporting mods is between 280bhp (Superspool / Stage 1) up to 350bhp for the Stage 2 / Stage 3 turbo. Flea mapped refurbished standard turbos with or without a decat seem to range from 247bhp - 288bhp (Listed as TB28 in the dyno thread).

"Stage" 1 is a not a standard turbo
The standard refurbished turbos have been quoted as a "stage 1" hybrid numerous times, and stage 1 numbers from the dyno table being linked to the standard turbo (TB28). Flea has confirmed that these refurbished standard turbos are NOT listed a hybrid stage 1, they are listed as a TB28. TimC's car has the highest listed power as a stage 1, with a 60 trim compressor, and so it is NOT a standard turbo.

FC Performance are now offering new listings of hybrid turbos, unfortunately this list does not come with the turbo specs.

Last edited by Gunzi; 25/06/2011 11:20. Reason: tidied.
Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: Gunzi] #1196274
04/04/2011 13:57
04/04/2011 13:57

D
doug20vt
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doug20vt
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pretty sure that Barbz gtirs uses a the standard turbine wheel as oppose to the larger 76trim turbine wheel

the standard turbine trim is 62trim as oppose to 60trim,

other than that fair play to you for putting this post up, should hopefully clear things up for a few folk

Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: Gunzi] #1196302
04/04/2011 14:41
04/04/2011 14:41
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
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Gunzi Offline OP
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Gunzi  Offline OP
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Posts: 8,057
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Cheers for that Doug. Made the amendments to the exhaust turbine.

I've just been through an old PM from Barbz and updated the list.

Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: Gunzi] #1196315
04/04/2011 15:13
04/04/2011 15:13
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 866
Derby
TimC Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gunzi
TimC's car has the highest listed power as a stage 1, his car has a 60 trim compressor, and so it is NOT a standard turbo.


Correct, but I do have the 0.8 bar actuator that Rog provided as an option - not sure if this makes a difference thumb



20VT+ 305bhp 284lb/ft
Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: Gunzi] #1196322
04/04/2011 15:32
04/04/2011 15:32
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
Southsea
G
Gunzi Offline OP
Club member 189, Former Club President
Gunzi  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
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Ah ha! Maybe that makes it a stage 2 for FC Performance? You're listed as stage 1 in the dyno table, but stage 2 in your "Hybrid Power!!" thread?!

Thanks for the reply Tim!

Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: Gunzi] #1196396
04/04/2011 19:19
04/04/2011 19:19
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,588
Essex
Rog20VT Offline
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TimC Has my stage 1 but with the optional uprated actuator, just to confuse things a little more.

Stage 1 = 60 trim (optional 0.8 bar actuator)
stage 2 = 62 trim with larger turbine wheel (uprated actuator included).

An FMIC is essential with a stage 2 and advised with a stage 1 to get the most from the turbo's spec.


Doesnt barbz do an ultraspool GT28RS but with V band turbine housing? He used to, and it was a good unit for roller bearing power without the aggro of sourcing a downpipe or adapter.

smile





www.Poweritalia.com - The UK's leading Fiat Coupe Specialist
Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: Gunzi] #1196413
04/04/2011 19:35
04/04/2011 19:35

A
alfatim
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alfatim
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I just had a 'Stage 3' equivelent from Barbz, he called it a GTiRS with 62 trim but standard turbine and .8bar actuator. It was a CR Turbo's unit.

Last edited by alfatim; 04/04/2011 19:41.
Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: Gunzi] #1196426
04/04/2011 20:10
04/04/2011 20:10
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
Southsea
G
Gunzi Offline OP
Club member 189, Former Club President
Gunzi  Offline OP
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Je suis un Coupé
G

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
Southsea
More editing done, cheers chaps! I think this is closing in on a definitive list! Anything else is welcomed.

Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: Gunzi] #1196491
04/04/2011 21:56
04/04/2011 21:56

Z
zimpara
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zimpara
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Z



hey bud, cheers for knocking this up, can you emphasize that a re con t28 with 360 bearings and staggered seals isnt anything more than a T28. everyone thinks its a stage 1. good work

Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: ] #1196498
04/04/2011 22:05
04/04/2011 22:05

D
devbod
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devbod
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Originally Posted By: zimpara
can you emphasize that a re con t28 with 360 bearings and staggered seals isnt anything more than a T28.


The turbo boost characteristics may be unchanged but its more robust so you can safely decat and a staggered seal means less oil will leak out helping to avoid the problems that causes.

Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: ] #1196507
04/04/2011 22:11
04/04/2011 22:11
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
Southsea
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Gunzi Offline OP
Club member 189, Former Club President
Gunzi  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
Southsea
Originally Posted By: zimpara
hey bud, cheers for knocking this up, can you emphasize that a re con t28 with 360 bearings and staggered seals isnt anything more than a T28. everyone thinks its a stage 1. good work


Do I detect sarcasm in this post? You've highlighted the very problem. People think a recon standard turbo is a stage 1 then look at the dyno thread and think it will make 300bhp+ when it simply won't.

Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: Gunzi] #1196524
04/04/2011 22:29
04/04/2011 22:29

Z
zimpara
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zimpara
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no sarcasm dude,. you have hit the cow on the arse there
(People think a recon standard turbo is a stage 1 then look at the dyno thread and think it will make 300bhp+ when it simply won't.

Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: Gunzi] #1196531
04/04/2011 22:34
04/04/2011 22:34
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
Southsea
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Gunzi Offline OP
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Gunzi  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
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Ah sorry, I misinterpreted your post. Hopefully this will help clear up a few misunderstandings as to what's what!

Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: Gunzi] #1196538
04/04/2011 22:38
04/04/2011 22:38

Z
zimpara
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zimpara
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Z



Following on from this thread

as per my original post cheers mate,

Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: Gunzi] #1196565
04/04/2011 22:59
04/04/2011 22:59
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,564
Lincolnshire
bridges Offline
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Are Hybrid turbo's marked/stamped???

I know that I have one, I suspect a small trim but I wouldn't want it any other way as it spools up very quickly with a remap, decat and only 2x straight through silencers and a SIP.
Even the Evo Fmic does not seem to create loss in spool up.
with the handling modifications it is devestating in real world terms and does NOT understeer unless hard on the throttle/boost mid corner in low gears. I love this turbo for having fully usable power.
must get it remapped though for peace of mind.

Last edited by bridges; 04/04/2011 23:00.



Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: bridges] #1196758
05/04/2011 12:00
05/04/2011 12:00

S
s6BINGO
Unregistered
s6BINGO
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S



Originally Posted By: bridges

Are Hybrid turbo's marked/stamped???

I know that I have one, I suspect a small trim but I wouldn't want it any other way as it spools up very quickly with a remap, decat and only 2x straight through silencers and a SIP.
Even the Evo Fmic does not seem to create loss in spool up.
with the handling modifications it is devestating in real world terms and does NOT understeer unless hard on the throttle/boost mid corner in low gears. I love this turbo for having fully usable power.
must get it remapped though for peace of mind.

yours is a superspool. i loved this turbo when i owned the car :-) you managed to get the clutch sorted and it running at 1.3bar yet? its running one of barbz remaps if its not been changed since i had it. dont really know much more about it though.

Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: ] #1196949
05/04/2011 20:03
05/04/2011 20:03
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,564
Lincolnshire
bridges Offline
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Originally Posted By: s6BINGO
Originally Posted By: bridges

Are Hybrid turbo's marked/stamped???

I know that I have one, I suspect a small trim but I wouldn't want it any other way as it spools up very quickly with a remap, decat and only 2x straight through silencers and a SIP.
Even the Evo Fmic does not seem to create loss in spool up.
with the handling modifications it is devestating in real world terms and does NOT understeer unless hard on the throttle/boost mid corner in low gears. I love this turbo for having fully usable power.
must get it remapped though for peace of mind.

yours is a superspool. i loved this turbo when i owned the car :-) you managed to get the clutch sorted and it running at 1.3bar yet? its running one of barbz remaps if its not been changed since i had it. dont really know much more about it though.


Hey mate.. Yes! Although on a lower boost and driven not too aggresively clutch slip was minimal. First replaced the thermostat.
Then after a while I decided to take off the road for a couple of months so did the clutch and decided to change anything that would be easy whilst the gearbox was out

Hence renewed the brake pipes in the engine bay,
Did the Coolant hose of death, serviced the engine
renewed all fluids.
Then... started to really willy around.. decided to put some 3G front discs and pagid yellow pads as one old LE disc was a bit ropey also mintex rear discs and pads,
renewed wishbones and drop links
cleaned engine bay and sprayed rocker cover and strut brace.

also
fitted Xenon head lights which are a great upgrade and have got Led side lights to match.
Forge re-circ valve which is quiet when driven normally and through the Ramair gives a nice sharp pssssht at high boost.
Also now running camber bolts.

Car is up at 1.3 bar and really flies

back on topic, the car is very good on twisty roads and I genuinely would not want for any more bhp




Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: Gunzi] #1196962
05/04/2011 20:22
05/04/2011 20:22

T
tomlough
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tomlough
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T



superspools are quality i love mine wink

Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: Gunzi] #1196977
05/04/2011 20:50
05/04/2011 20:50

S
s6BINGO
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s6BINGO
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S



yeah the clutch wasnt that bad, but once id driven it at 1.3bar it had to be 1.3bar or nothing for me lol. i remember taking you out in it when you bought it and it held fine at 1.1bar then. difference is i didnt have the know how to change it if it decided to go and was undrivable so decided to sell when i did. im pleased your happy with it. barbz said it was running 305bhp when he done the work, but it didnt have the exhaust system on then its got on now. did you get the aquamist running? yeah the ramair kit is impressive. shame i couldnt show you it when you bought it lol. i miss the 5 pot sound sooooo much :-(.

Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: Gunzi] #1197005
05/04/2011 21:13
05/04/2011 21:13
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,564
Lincolnshire
bridges Offline
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Even at 1.1 bar it is very responsive, but yes.. 1.3 bar is where the car performs best, seems leagues ahead of my original 20vt with Gtech 1, although I think the exhaust and sip allow the best from the 55 trim superspool.

Yes, did get the aquamist operating was the pressure switch that was not operating fully, although only ran the aquamist a few times in the hot summer last year.
Love the car to bits as it has such a wide power band.

Last edited by bridges; 05/04/2011 21:14.



Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: Gunzi] #1197023
05/04/2011 21:29
05/04/2011 21:29

S
s6BINGO
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s6BINGO
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S



happy for you mate. definitely miss it myself, maybe go back to one, one day. not sure if i could afford to run one at the min though with the price of vpower!! i recognise the pic in your sig too. it was one of those look back at your car moments and i had to have a pic taken lol that car used to keep up with my mates 400bhp evo :-)

Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: Gunzi] #1197176
06/04/2011 08:49
06/04/2011 08:49
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Posts: 1,564
Lincolnshire
bridges Offline
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Is the pic that made me enquire about the car. Hence decided to use it, lol


I can believe the superspool is achieving around 300bhp, depending on the rolling road.
(boostmecoupeup) is running a similar tuning spec and running 304bhp mapped by Flea.




Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: bridges] #1197204
06/04/2011 09:47
06/04/2011 09:47

D
doug20vt
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doug20vt
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would it not be a good idea once the list of hybrids is finalised and references as to what kind of power can be acheived from them to add this to 'the knowledge' as that seems to dismiss hybrids and concentrates on garrett's gt series

while hybrids may not have the most up to date technology largely because they don't have a ball bearing centre housing, for most people they are the first step folk take when upgrading there turbo and as seen from the power now being acheived from them, a hugely effective one

Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: Gunzi] #1197206
06/04/2011 09:50
06/04/2011 09:50
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
Southsea
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Gunzi Offline OP
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That sounds like a great idea.

Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: Gunzi] #1197223
06/04/2011 10:09
06/04/2011 10:09

P
patch234
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patch234
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Well done Gunzi, a truly useful post

Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: ] #1197238
06/04/2011 10:31
06/04/2011 10:31
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
Southsea
G
Gunzi Offline OP
Club member 189, Former Club President
Gunzi  Offline OP
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Je suis un Coupé
G

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
Southsea
Originally Posted By: patch234
...a truly useful post


Thanks Phil. Not sure I make too many of those!

Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: Gunzi] #1202838
16/04/2011 19:57
16/04/2011 19:57

Z
zimpara
Unregistered
zimpara
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Z



hi gunzi,

after getting lost in your very detailed but all over the place thread, i came up with a few things,

can you also emphasize the following,

A Hybrid Turbo is a standard turbo that has had any work carried out on it to alter the way it performs as compared to standard, it is still the v band adapter - GtiR, etc


A GT series turbo is a 5stud- ie GT28R /RS/RSR which requires a different down pipe.

And that its pointless trying to define turbos in stages, as everyone still has no clue whats what.
how about we all just learn the trims and refer to the turbos as a 60 trim etc

Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: ] #1203063
17/04/2011 09:41
17/04/2011 09:41
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,564
Lincolnshire
bridges Offline
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Ive always understood a Hybrid to be a standard turbo, housing with reworked internals.
can someone confirm.




Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: bridges] #1203095
17/04/2011 11:44
17/04/2011 11:44

G
group5lancia
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group5lancia
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Garrett (and other turbo manufacturers) have a huge range of parts. "standard" turbos are specific combinations of these parts, sometimes put together to meet a car manufacturers specification and sometimes put together by Garrett themselves to be sold as aftermarket 'upgrades'.

If you take a 'standard' turbo and modify it away from specification by fitting a bigger turbine wheel or a bigger compressor wheel, machining turbine and/or compressor housings to suit or fitting a different design, A/R or size of housing, or machining turbine wheels to allow them to pass more exhaust gas with lower back pressure then the result will be a hybrid turbo.

Because of the huge range of parts available there is potentially a huge range of hybrids which could be put together. For this reason, one manufacturers or tuners "Stage 3" cannot readily be compared with someone elses "Stage 3" as they may have used a different combination of parts to achieve the same results.

Sadly, just knowing the trim of the compressor wheel used does not give sufficient information to judge whether turbo 'A' will have more power potential than turbo 'B'. For example, which flows more - a T04E 54 trim or a T04E 50 trim?

The 50 trim wheel flows more, not least because the 50 trim wheel is 76.2mm in diameter (exducer) and the 54 trim wheel is only 75mm diameter (exducer). Compressor wheels can also have different numbers of blades - Garrett have compressors with 6, 7 even 8 blades in their range, some more efficient than others and some flowing more than others for the same diameter and trim. The 50 trim T04E is capable of a maximum pressure ratio of 3.4:1 whereas the 54 trim can only manage 3.1:1 - so less flow and lower boost capability.

Have a read here for an idea of the modifications possible to make a hybrid:

http://www.turbodynamics.co.uk/services/turbo-upgrades/

Last edited by group5lancia; 17/04/2011 11:55.
Re: Hybrid Turbos & "Stages" [Re: Gunzi] #1230956
25/06/2011 11:23
25/06/2011 11:23
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
Southsea
G
Gunzi Offline OP
Club member 189, Former Club President
Gunzi  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
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I've done some tidying on the original thread so it's easier to read and understand. Any further comments on the list welcomed.


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