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Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: ] #1409371
06/02/2013 20:46
06/02/2013 20:46

T
tim42
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tim42
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T



Originally Posted By: johnnybravoturbo
Back on topic

After all peak power figures don't add inches to your Richard.



... especially when buried in a Leicester car park.

Maybe we should just test our Coupe's DNA.... wink

Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: ] #1409372
06/02/2013 20:47
06/02/2013 20:47

B
Barbz
Unregistered
Barbz
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B



rofl hehe

Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: ] #1409376
06/02/2013 20:52
06/02/2013 20:52

J
johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
johnnybravoturbo
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J



Originally Posted By: Barbz
rofl hehe


You had my number mate.
Did me fair and square,great driving thumb

Makes the score 2:1 to me still as I beat you at Bruntingthorpe and Santa pod laugh
As I said above your always behind.
The student beat the master.

Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: Begbie] #1409410
06/02/2013 21:55
06/02/2013 21:55
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
Flea Offline
Forum is my life
Flea  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
Good to finally see the graphs on here!

Barbz, your car is very similar to Speedy's, and I assume from the boost profile i.e. restricted to 1.5bar coming on boost before ramping up, that you have also suffered with significant compressor surge? This is all important information, as it will affect choices and further development.

Dynos are great, but I am more than happy with the Dastek dyno I use. It is consistant, has been tested as accurate on hundreds of factory cars including all my own, but most importantly it reflects the road data most accurately of all. That last comment is what I care about most of all, as all cars live on the road, not the dyno.


[Linked Image]

Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: ] #1409421
06/02/2013 22:23
06/02/2013 22:23

T
TurboJ
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TurboJ
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T



Originally Posted By: Barbz

Been using Charlie coming on 9 years now and we've had some real heart stopping moments on his dyno. Proper power! crazy hehe


9 Years and no deal on an S8 wink

Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: ] #1409427
06/02/2013 22:50
06/02/2013 22:50

B
Barbz
Unregistered
Barbz
Unregistered
B



Quote:

You had my number mate.
Did me fair and square,great driving

Makes the score 2:1 to me still as I beat you at Bruntingthorpe and Santa pod
As I said above your always behind.
The student beat the master.


How does this view look?
laugh
Before
click to enlarge

After
click to enlarge

Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: ] #1409430
06/02/2013 22:53
06/02/2013 22:53

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Barbz
Unregistered
Barbz
Unregistered
B



Quote:
9 Years and no deal on an S8


Hello Jay

Longtime, i heard you been a busy lad wink. We need to catch up sometime soon... smile

Yes, got a proper deal on S80 mate, thanks. thumb

Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: Flea] #1409452
07/02/2013 07:58
07/02/2013 07:58

B
Barbz
Unregistered
Barbz
Unregistered
B



Quote:
Good to finally see the graphs on here!

Barbz, your car is very similar to Speedy's, and I assume from the boost profile i.e. restricted to 1.5bar coming on boost before ramping up, that you have also suffered with significant compressor surge? This is all important information, as it will affect choices and further development.


Assumed wrong again im affraid. tongue

Had the boost profile set that way, didn't want 2.15bar landing on my lap so early. Running out of gearboxes fast...HELP! wink laugh

Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: ] #1409459
07/02/2013 08:28
07/02/2013 08:28
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,293
Sandhurst
Begbie Offline OP
Ex El Presidente
Begbie  Offline OP
Ex El Presidente
I AM a Coop

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,293
Sandhurst
Originally Posted By: Barbz


At least hit the apex of the corner rolleyes hehe


Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: Begbie] #1409463
07/02/2013 08:55
07/02/2013 08:55

B
Barbz
Unregistered
Barbz
Unregistered
B



laugh

Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: Begbie] #1409465
07/02/2013 09:01
07/02/2013 09:01

B
Barbz
Unregistered
Barbz
Unregistered
B



Quote:
At least hit the apex of the corner


Hairpin actually old boy! wink laugh

Get in touch with JDM in Carlise to help get your idle map right.

Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: ] #1409467
07/02/2013 09:09
07/02/2013 09:09
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,027
Carlisle
Rob40 Offline
Club Member 1717
Rob40  Offline
Club Member 1717
Enjoying the ride

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,027
Carlisle
Originally Posted By: Barbz


Get in touch with JDM in Carlise to help get your idle map right.


thumb


This is how it should have come out of Torino!
Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: DLT] #1409482
07/02/2013 10:01
07/02/2013 10:01

B
Barbz
Unregistered
Barbz
Unregistered
B



Quote:
Out of interest what were your AFR readings like?


Now the afr graphs are up, whats your opinion? smile

Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: ] #1409506
07/02/2013 13:00
07/02/2013 13:00
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 268
Swansea
DLT Offline
Making a profit
DLT  Offline
Making a profit

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 268
Swansea
Originally Posted By: Barbz
Quote:
Out of interest what were your AFR readings like?


Now the afr graphs are up, whats your opinion? smile


Well in fairness I know very little on this subject, or anything mechanical for that matter. Having sold my Motec in favor of the factory ecu, my interest lies in the various statements made about the factory ecu not being up to the job of mapping "big power" cars.

I therefore imagined that the AFR readings from Biggenz car (if on a factory ecu) would be all over the place in relation to your stand alone unit.

Looking at the two sets of AFR readings in connection with your AFR table at the bottom, I am not sure I can see where the problems caused by the factory ecu (in this area)are. Perhaps you could point them out? smile

Revs Barbz Biggenz
3,000 12.6 14.0
3,500 13.2 14.0
4,000 13.0 13.5
4,500 13.0 13.0
5,000 11.2 12.0
5,500 11.8 11.5
6,000 12.0 12.4
6,500 12.0 12.6
7,000 N/A 12.5
7,500 N/A 12.3


Air/fuel mixture and characteristics

6.0 rich burn limit (fully warm engine)
9.0/10.0 black smoke/low power
11.5 approx rich best torque at wide-open throttle
12.0 safe best power at wide-open throttle
13.3 approx lean best torque
14.6 stoichiometric AFR (chemically ideal) <-- mean just enough fuel and air
15.5 lean cruise
16.5 usual best economy

Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: Begbie] #1409513
07/02/2013 13:26
07/02/2013 13:26

B
Biggenz
Unregistered
Biggenz
Unregistered
B



I now see why you and Flea were hassling me to put up my graphs. wink

Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: ] #1409519
07/02/2013 13:44
07/02/2013 13:44

G
group5lancia
Unregistered
group5lancia
Unregistered
G



Originally Posted By: Barbz
Quote:
As for it having a power sapping 10 AFR, if you actually look at the graph you will see it only briefly touches 10.9 between 3.5-4.5k, but in all other areas it is averaging 11.1-11.2 and at peak power it is 11.4 so far from being power sapping!! There seems to be considerable lack of understanding regarding air fuel ratios on power/torque, something I will be addressing in detail later on.


Here's an AFR table to help.

Air/fuel mixture and characteristics

6.0 rich burn limit (fully warm engine)
9.0/10.0 black smoke/low power
11.5 approx rich best torque at wide-open throttle
12.0 safe best power at wide-open throttle
13.3 approx lean best torque
14.6 stoichiometric AFR (chemically ideal) <-- mean just enough fuel and air
15.5 lean cruise
16.5 usual best economy

smile


Lambda Efficiency Curve here

I prefer you use lambda as the target, as the stoichiometric ratio is different for different fuels. e.g. Tesco 99 has 5% ethanol, bringing the stoichiometric A/F ratio down to 14.358:1 (from 14.64) and BEST POWER 0.86 lambda becomes an AFR 12.348:1 (down from 12.59:1)

Lambda 0.82 gives best knock resistance as it produces the fastest flame speed. On regular petrol that is an AFR of 12.005 and on Tesco 99 11.774:1

If you map using Lambda as the target for closed loop trimming (if the ecu permits this) you will always get the right A/F ratio, whatever fuel you have in the tank...

Last edited by group5lancia; 07/02/2013 16:45.
Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: DLT] #1409564
07/02/2013 17:18
07/02/2013 17:18

B
Barbz
Unregistered
Barbz
Unregistered
B



Quote:
Well in fairness I know very little on this subject, or anything mechanical for that matter. Having sold my Motec in favor of the factory ecu, my interest lies in the various statements made about the factory ecu not being up to the job of mapping "big power" cars.


Fair comment Dave.

Keeping it short, my 2 years experience of the fc oem ecu at 500bhp+. A mixed bag really, the Good, the Bad and the Ugly. Time to move on...

Quote:
I therefore imagined that the AFR readings from Biggenz car (if on a factory ecu) would be all over the place in relation to your stand alone unit.

Lets just say, sometimes optimising enhancements are needed to arrive at the desired point. wink

Quote:
Looking at the two sets of AFR readings in connection with your AFR table at the bottom, I am not sure I can see where the problems caused by the factory ecu (in this area)are. Perhaps you could point them out?

Revs Barbz Biggenz
3,000 12.6 14.0
3,500 13.2 14.0
4,000 13.0 13.5
4,500 13.0 13.0
5,000 11.2 12.0
5,500 11.8 11.5
6,000 12.0 12.4
6,500 12.0 12.6
7,000 N/A 12.5
7,500 N/A 12.3


Biggenz's Coupe is a very unique platform at every level and Afr profiles on the day were near perfect love

In regards to fleas Afr table comparision above, there are some slight variation in data on mine, however, the JDM logs are near perfect. My afr calibrations were achieved by wideband logs taken from downpipe and not piece of tube stuck in the tailpipe (only if calibrated correctly).
Note, tailpipe readings can generally give inconsistant afr values.

Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: ] #1409570
07/02/2013 17:37
07/02/2013 17:37
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 268
Swansea
DLT Offline
Making a profit
DLT  Offline
Making a profit

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 268
Swansea
Originally Posted By: Barbz


In regards to fleas Afr table comparision above, there are some slight variation in data on mine, however, the JDM logs are near perfect. My afr calibrations were achieved by wideband logs taken from downpipe and not piece of tube stuck in the tailpipe (only if calibrated correctly).
Note, tailpipe readings can generally give inconsistant afr values.


Thanks Barbz. I should point out that the AFR table was nothing to do with Flea, I simply read the two graphs and noted the readings.

My interest is purely personal as my car will be mapped on the factory ecu within the next few weeks.

Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: ] #1409572
07/02/2013 17:39
07/02/2013 17:39
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
Flea Offline
Forum is my life
Flea  Offline
Forum is my life

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
Originally Posted By: Biggenz
I now see why you and Flea were hassling me to put up my graphs. wink


Pero you drama queen, I have asked to see everybodys graphs as it shows the full picture rather headline snapshots. Why wouldn't you put the graphs up??


[Linked Image]

Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: ] #1409574
07/02/2013 17:41
07/02/2013 17:41
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 268
Swansea
DLT Offline
Making a profit
DLT  Offline
Making a profit

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 268
Swansea
Originally Posted By: Biggenz
I now see why you and Flea were hassling me to put up my graphs. wink


You have lost me there.

I am just trying to get the best result having already spent......Well you know yourself don't you.

Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: ] #1409580
07/02/2013 18:25
07/02/2013 18:25

T
tim42
Unregistered
tim42
Unregistered
T



Originally Posted By: tim42
265bhp @ 5250rpm
275lb/ft @ 4300rpm
1.55bar @ 3700rpm then tailed off to 1.25 @ 6000rpm
The AFR was a bit all over the place.

The poor beastie was suffering a misfire and a possible boost leak. Barbz has offered to mend my broken heart next week bow before I resort to suicide


My heart is mostly mended. I spent the day with Barbz being educated whilst the Scottie was undertaking some minor cardiac surgery. My jaw bones were most entertained whilst sorting out the boost and AFR on the A3, and my right foot was equally entertained on the drive home once I'd got past the road works on the M25.

Just need a boost controller now to complete the package, but I'll give the rollers a miss for the time being. Barbz, legend as usual bow ; many thanks!!

Tim

Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: DLT] #1409582
07/02/2013 18:29
07/02/2013 18:29

B
Barbz
Unregistered
Barbz
Unregistered
B



Quote:
Thanks Barbz. I should point out that the AFR table was nothing to do with Flea, I simply read the two graphs and noted the readings.

My interest is purely personal as my car will be mapped on the factory ecu within the next few weeks.


Your welcome Dave,

I hope it works well for you in the end.

Consider this, 2 years worth of R&D was done on mine which opened the doors to the 500hp club.

Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: Begbie] #1409585
07/02/2013 18:47
07/02/2013 18:47

J
johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
johnnybravoturbo
Unregistered
J



But you don't have 500bhp Barbz?

Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: ] #1409588
07/02/2013 18:55
07/02/2013 18:55

B
Barbz
Unregistered
Barbz
Unregistered
B



On my dyno it has! laugh

Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: ] #1409590
07/02/2013 19:01
07/02/2013 19:01

T
tim42
Unregistered
tim42
Unregistered
T



Originally Posted By: Barbz
On my dyno it has! laugh


... is that the A3? crazy

Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: Flea] #1409604
07/02/2013 20:01
07/02/2013 20:01

B
Biggenz
Unregistered
Biggenz
Unregistered
B



Originally Posted By: Flea

Pero you drama queen, I have asked to see everybodys graphs as it shows the full picture rather headline snapshots. Why wouldn't you put the graphs up??


Haha.

I told you I was just being lazy and finally got round to it.

Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: Begbie] #1409605
07/02/2013 20:04
07/02/2013 20:04
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
Flea Offline
Forum is my life
Flea  Offline
Forum is my life

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
DLT mentioned the AFRs and ECUs, so I have compiled a few graphs of Barbz's car as it has been on Surrey RR more than any other.

This is Barbz's last Surrey RR graph with the 2.4 before his engine spun number three big end bearing. Same turbo as the current 2 litre setup with 1.45bar, mapped by me on the factory Bosch ECU.

click to enlarge

If we overlay the torque and BHP curves we can see the difference between the old and new set-ups.

click to enlarge click to enlarge

As for the air fuel ratios, well over the last couple of years I have mapped Barbz's car on a few different setups and turbos, all of which have been on Surrey RR's dyno.

Jan 2011 - GT3076R turbo @ 1.3bar
click to enlarge click to enlarge

March 2011 - GT3076R turbo @ 1.3bar
click to enlarge click to enlarge

May 2011 - GT3076R turbo @ 1.3bar
click to enlarge click to enlarge

December 2011 - GTX3076R turbo @ 1.45bar
click to enlarge


[Linked Image]

Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: Begbie] #1409614
07/02/2013 20:27
07/02/2013 20:27
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 268
Swansea
DLT Offline
Making a profit
DLT  Offline
Making a profit

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 268
Swansea
^^^I am really confused now. So how is this worse than the current setup on the stand alone?? crazy

Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: Begbie] #1409616
07/02/2013 20:29
07/02/2013 20:29
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
Southsea
G
Gunzi Offline
Club member 189, Former Club President
Gunzi  Offline
Club member 189, Former Club President
Je suis un Coupé
G

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
Southsea
If you are talking about the power and torque curves that would probably be down to the differing displacement.

Re: Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results [Re: Gunzi] #1409617
07/02/2013 20:37
07/02/2013 20:37
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 268
Swansea
DLT Offline
Making a profit
DLT  Offline
Making a profit

Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 268
Swansea
Originally Posted By: Gunzi
If you are talking about the power and torque curves that would probably be down to the differing displacement.


I was referring to afr

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