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Track day crash ... court awards damages #1449091
19/09/2013 17:00
19/09/2013 17:00

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dave_t
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Clearly we don't know the specifics, but this does sound like a worrying development frown

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic...rom+a+track+day

Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: ] #1449102
19/09/2013 17:44
19/09/2013 17:44
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In the coupe.
magooagain Offline
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Worrying it is Dave. Hints in the thread are pointing to different facts than first explained by the OP.

Sounds like the civic lad said sorry and its my fault to the cat driver.

Its a reminder to us all to try and stay calm on track and dont let the red mist descend.

Cant help feeling sorry for civic boy though! (at the moment)



Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: ] #1449112
19/09/2013 19:18
19/09/2013 19:18
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Bristol, UK
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Hovedan Offline
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That sets pretty horrific precedents for track days going forwards frown

Worrying indeed.

Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: Hovedan] #1449117
19/09/2013 19:53
19/09/2013 19:53

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Jonny
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Yes, we really do need the full story shocked If it turns out that personal liability can be attributed to drivers for mistakes on track, it'd be the end of track days for me.

Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: ] #1449119
19/09/2013 20:12
19/09/2013 20:12

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dave_t
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Further worries ... although unsubstantiated (and I'm trying to find MSV T&Cs to see if it can be substantiated) ...

There is a claim on the PH thread that MSV has changed its small print to include:

"I shall reimburse MSV and other Relevant Persons against any loss or liability suffered by them as a result
of my error, default, act or omission."

shocked if true

Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: ] #1449144
20/09/2013 04:50
20/09/2013 04:50
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In the coupe.
magooagain Offline
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Was that small print for novice sessions Dave?



Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: ] #1449146
20/09/2013 05:15
20/09/2013 05:15
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Bristol, UK
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'Kin hell Dave. I am struggling to understand how any court could award damages over the existing waivers we sign accepting the risks frown

Insurance companies must be rubbing their hands with glee...

Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: ] #1449156
20/09/2013 06:23
20/09/2013 06:23

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suba
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If that is true I just won't go with MSV......plenty of other companies out there.

On reading the pistonheads thread, it seems like the cateram driver claimed from his own insurance (Chaucer) and they then paid out, but went after the driver that hit him for all the costs..... And won.....nothing to do with MSV?

Difficult to comment without knowing all the facts on this case, so I won't do so.

But I quite like the idea that someone may now decide not to turn up in a 500 quid banger and drive like they don't care until they get kicked off, safe in the knowledge that they have no responsibility if they decide to do something really stupid and hurt someone. (Extreme example, but you get the idea.)

Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: magooagain] #1449159
20/09/2013 06:35
20/09/2013 06:35

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dave_t
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Originally Posted By: magooagain
Was that small print for novice sessions Dave?


To be honest, Joe, I don't know. That was just hearsay from the PH thread, and I've not been able to find MSVs track day T&Cs on the web.

Si, you definitely have a point. Having said that I once had a very near miss with a 911 Turbo (he'd lost it out of a hairpin and was facing the wrong way on the track). It'd had only just happened, and the flags weren't out yet. I missed him, but not by much.

I'd be bankrupt if I had hit him and something similar to this had happened!

Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: ] #1449174
20/09/2013 08:31
20/09/2013 08:31

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suba
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suba
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I understand your point Dave - very daunting, but I guess the best way round that would be to make sure that you are nowhere near any high value cars, and either get well ahead of them, or let them go. Still does not get round it if there is a blind corner and you are 10-20 secs behind..... most of the people that are erratic or push a bit too hard seems to be the cheap car owners, or the expensive ones come to think of it.

I guess we've also got a solid reason to film our sessions now as well....!

Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: ] #1449191
20/09/2013 10:06
20/09/2013 10:06

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dave_t
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Originally Posted By: suba
I guess we've also got a solid reason to film our sessions now as well....!


That's an excellent point. I now just need to convince my wife that I'm buying two new GoPro's so that I can protect us from bankrupcy wink laugh

Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: ] #1449195
20/09/2013 10:49
20/09/2013 10:49

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Jonny
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Originally Posted By: dave_t
Originally Posted By: suba
I guess we've also got a solid reason to film our sessions now as well....!


That's an excellent point. I now just need to convince my wife that I'm buying two new GoPro's so that I can protect us from bankrupcy wink laugh


Yes I was thinking that.

Bookatrack have contact Chaucer (the insurer who claimed) to find out the details.

Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: ] #1449196
20/09/2013 10:59
20/09/2013 10:59

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suba
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suba
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Carefull - there is a very obvious counter argument to that! "so you can't do any trackdays anymore, and now you have no use for the silly little car with no windscreen...." tongue

Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: ] #1449200
20/09/2013 11:18
20/09/2013 11:18
Joined: Dec 2005
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england
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Don't forgett any cameras have to be bolted to the car - non of those suction devices!


[Linked Image]www.chrisdoyle-photography.co.uk

Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: ] #1449201
20/09/2013 11:23
20/09/2013 11:23

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dazs78
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It does state in the PH thread that the court deemed all cctv footage irrelevant shocked

I was on track at donnington on monday just gone and i had a very close shave with a caterham that had spun infront of me where he very nearly came into the side of me.

I wouldnt like to be in this position thats for sure.

Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: ] #1449215
20/09/2013 13:10
20/09/2013 13:10

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Jonny
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Originally Posted By: suba
Carefull - there is a very obvious counter argument to that! "so you can't do any trackdays anymore, and now you have no use for the silly little car with no windscreen...." tongue


It's gone, replaced by a Clio tongue It was going to be a stopgap before getting something with silly power in a few years time. We'll have to see how it pans out frown Might be back to a nice car for the road.

Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: ] #1449229
20/09/2013 15:23
20/09/2013 15:23

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suba
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suba
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I know - I was replying to Dave T! wink

Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: ] #1449237
20/09/2013 15:44
20/09/2013 15:44

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Jonny
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Ahh rolleyes But Dave needs his to commute crazy

Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: ] #1449244
20/09/2013 16:33
20/09/2013 16:33

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suba
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suba
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Oh..... well if that's the case the excuse is watertight then! laugh

Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: ] #1449249
20/09/2013 16:53
20/09/2013 16:53

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dave_t
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dave_t
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Originally Posted By: Jonny
Ahh rolleyes But Dave needs his to commute crazy


Indeed! laugh

But (fortunately) only whilst my Alfa had its chocolate gearbox sorted! laugh

Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: ] #1449250
20/09/2013 16:57
20/09/2013 16:57

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dave_t
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dave_t
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Originally Posted By: suba
Carefull - there is a very obvious counter argument to that! "so you can't do any trackdays anymore, and now you have no use for the silly little car with no windscreen...." tongue


Surprisingly (or not) that is an oft-used sentence in my house!

But I've managed to get the kids on-side wink They love trips out in 'Brum'

Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: ] #1449252
20/09/2013 17:14
20/09/2013 17:14
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,192
Bristol, UK
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Hovedan Offline
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Originally Posted By: dave_t
But I've managed to get the kids on-side wink They love trips out in 'Brum'


Listen to them Dave, they talk a lot of sense tongue

Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: ] #1450060
26/09/2013 13:40
26/09/2013 13:40
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Posts: 17,112
FCSS 01684 593187
Countrycruising Offline
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Received an email this afternoon from Trackdays saying they're included a new paragraph to their T&C's

‘It is a condition of your participation of the activity, or activities, in which you intend to take part that in the event of accident, loss or damage occurring during such activity or activities you will not pursue any claim for damages against any other participant (save in respect of injury or death)’

frown

Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: ] #1450063
26/09/2013 14:10
26/09/2013 14:10

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dave_t
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That's an interesting development, Joe. But I'm not sure it'd have much bearing on the situation on the PH thread.

From the comments (from a lawyer?) there, there is nothing that can be written into T&Cs that can prevent you being sued if you are negligent.

Essentially, there is no clause that can protect against negligence.

And that sounds like a good thing, I think. Certainly, if someone was acting like a complete tool on a track day and wrote off my Westy, I'd think about pursuing a claim (in all honesty).

The issue is 'what is negligence?' in terms of a track day.

It seems (although not confirmed) that the guy being sued was deemed to be negligent as he was travelling too fast to take avoiding action.

But that's the point of a track day! Driving hard round the blind right-hander Coppice at Donington is what it is all about!

The worry is, that if you do that and then hit someone, you could be deemed negligent. And then be sued and lose a lot (potentially) ... frown

I think it is this that needs to be cleared up ... but I've no idea how it will/ can be frown

Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: ] #1450065
26/09/2013 14:18
26/09/2013 14:18
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Countrycruising Offline
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The way I've read it is Trackdays is being told to cover their arses by their insurance company.
Either way it's a can of worms that's going to have a massive impact for all participants, novice or experienced as you can't plan against accidents unless we drive like Miss Daisy and then what's the point.

Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: Countrycruising] #1450074
26/09/2013 15:28
26/09/2013 15:28
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Bristol, UK
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I was going to post this up myself Joe - received an email from them today ahead of my track day at Combe tomorrow.

Like Dave says negligence is negligence, and nothing can be written that counters that. But, the definition of negligence on a trackday, when you are pushing the limits, is one hell of a grey area.

I know if some tool came into the side of me at 120+ at the top of Avon Rise tomorrow, I'd be far from impressed.

Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: ] #1450077
26/09/2013 15:38
26/09/2013 15:38
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Bristol, UK
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Actually, scratch that. I see that extra paragraph came from BHP trackdays, who are running our day at the end of October.

Apex are running tomorrows, and their paperwork doesn't include anything similar.

Hey ho, hope the rain clears by the morning.

Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: Hovedan] #1450080
26/09/2013 15:52
26/09/2013 15:52

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Jonny
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According to the thread, it appears the solution is a block third party insurance policy with the track day organiser. The norm in other countries apparently? Extra few quid on the cost of the day and fingers crossed this won't be an issue for us frown

Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: ] #1450243
27/09/2013 13:00
27/09/2013 13:00

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Nobby
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Just to make things more complicated, where does the track owners obligation to keep the track safe come into things.

If you sign something to say 'I agree I cannot pursue any claims', then you go with oil on an otherwise dry track but no red flags etc... Who's fault is that?

Crashes must be fairly common ish, albeit minor ones. I'm suprised this hasn't come up before.

Re: Track day crash ... court awards damages [Re: ] #1450252
27/09/2013 13:36
27/09/2013 13:36
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magooagain Offline
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I am on track tomorrow evning for a couple of hours here in France. The first since my new clutch and suspension.(Horaay) The cost is 60 Euros but as i dont have a track/circuit licence i have to pay an extra 22euros for some sort of insurance. I will find out more when i get there.

I will also have to show my mot cert,driving permit and my normal insurance documents.

I think all vehicles have to have an insurance of some sort.

I will try to get it all understood tomorrow night.



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