Clearly we don't know the specifics, but this does sound like a worrying development

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic...rom+a+track+day

Worrying it is Dave. Hints in the thread are pointing to different facts than first explained by the OP.

Sounds like the civic lad said sorry and its my fault to the cat driver.

Its a reminder to us all to try and stay calm on track and dont let the red mist descend.

Cant help feeling sorry for civic boy though! (at the moment)

That sets pretty horrific precedents for track days going forwards

Worrying indeed.

Yes, we really do need the full story If it turns out that personal liability can be attributed to drivers for mistakes on track, it'd be the end of track days for me.

Further worries ... although unsubstantiated (and I'm trying to find MSV T&Cs to see if it can be substantiated) ...

There is a claim on the PH thread that MSV has changed its small print to include:

"I shall reimburse MSV and other Relevant Persons against any loss or liability suffered by them as a result
of my error, default, act or omission."

if true

Was that small print for novice sessions Dave?

'Kin hell Dave. I am struggling to understand how any court could award damages over the existing waivers we sign accepting the risks

Insurance companies must be rubbing their hands with glee...

If that is true I just won't go with MSV......plenty of other companies out there.

On reading the pistonheads thread, it seems like the cateram driver claimed from his own insurance (Chaucer) and they then paid out, but went after the driver that hit him for all the costs..... And won.....nothing to do with MSV?

Difficult to comment without knowing all the facts on this case, so I won't do so.

But I quite like the idea that someone may now decide not to turn up in a 500 quid banger and drive like they don't care until they get kicked off, safe in the knowledge that they have no responsibility if they decide to do something really stupid and hurt someone. (Extreme example, but you get the idea.)

To be honest, Joe, I don't know. That was just hearsay from the PH thread, and I've not been able to find MSVs track day T&Cs on the web.

Si, you definitely have a point. Having said that I once had a very near miss with a 911 Turbo (he'd lost it out of a hairpin and was facing the wrong way on the track). It'd had only just happened, and the flags weren't out yet. I missed him, but not by much.

I'd be bankrupt if I had hit him and something similar to this had happened!

I understand your point Dave - very daunting, but I guess the best way round that would be to make sure that you are nowhere near any high value cars, and either get well ahead of them, or let them go. Still does not get round it if there is a blind corner and you are 10-20 secs behind..... most of the people that are erratic or push a bit too hard seems to be the cheap car owners, or the expensive ones come to think of it.

I guess we've also got a solid reason to film our sessions now as well....!

That's an excellent point. I now just need to convince my wife that I'm buying two new GoPro's so that I can protect us from bankrupcy

Yes I was thinking that.

Bookatrack have contact Chaucer (the insurer who claimed) to find out the details.

Carefull - there is a very obvious counter argument to that! "so you can't do any trackdays anymore, and now you have no use for the silly little car with no windscreen...."

Don't forgett any cameras have to be bolted to the car - non of those suction devices!

It does state in the PH thread that the court deemed all cctv footage irrelevant

I was on track at donnington on monday just gone and i had a very close shave with a caterham that had spun infront of me where he very nearly came into the side of me.

I wouldnt like to be in this position thats for sure.

It's gone, replaced by a Clio It was going to be a stopgap before getting something with silly power in a few years time. We'll have to see how it pans out Might be back to a nice car for the road.

I know - I was replying to Dave T!

Ahh But Dave needs his to commute

Oh..... well if that's the case the excuse is watertight then!

Indeed!

But (fortunately) only whilst my Alfa had its chocolate gearbox sorted!

Surprisingly (or not) that is an oft-used sentence in my house!

But I've managed to get the kids on-side They love trips out in 'Brum'

Listen to them Dave, they talk a lot of sense

Received an email this afternoon from Trackdays saying they're included a new paragraph to their T&C's

‘It is a condition of your participation of the activity, or activities, in which you intend to take part that in the event of accident, loss or damage occurring during such activity or activities you will not pursue any claim for damages against any other participant (save in respect of injury or death)’

That's an interesting development, Joe. But I'm not sure it'd have much bearing on the situation on the PH thread.

From the comments (from a lawyer?) there, there is nothing that can be written into T&Cs that can prevent you being sued if you are negligent.

Essentially, there is no clause that can protect against negligence.

And that sounds like a good thing, I think. Certainly, if someone was acting like a complete tool on a track day and wrote off my Westy, I'd think about pursuing a claim (in all honesty).

The issue is 'what is negligence?' in terms of a track day.

It seems (although not confirmed) that the guy being sued was deemed to be negligent as he was travelling too fast to take avoiding action.

But that's the point of a track day! Driving hard round the blind right-hander Coppice at Donington is what it is all about!

The worry is, that if you do that and then hit someone, you could be deemed negligent. And then be sued and lose a lot (potentially) ...

I think it is this that needs to be cleared up ... but I've no idea how it will/ can be

The way I've read it is Trackdays is being told to cover their arses by their insurance company.
Either way it's a can of worms that's going to have a massive impact for all participants, novice or experienced as you can't plan against accidents unless we drive like Miss Daisy and then what's the point.

I was going to post this up myself Joe - received an email from them today ahead of my track day at Combe tomorrow.

Like Dave says negligence is negligence, and nothing can be written that counters that. But, the definition of negligence on a trackday, when you are pushing the limits, is one hell of a grey area.

I know if some tool came into the side of me at 120+ at the top of Avon Rise tomorrow, I'd be far from impressed.

Actually, scratch that. I see that extra paragraph came from BHP trackdays, who are running our day at the end of October.

Apex are running tomorrows, and their paperwork doesn't include anything similar.

Hey ho, hope the rain clears by the morning.

According to the thread, it appears the solution is a block third party insurance policy with the track day organiser. The norm in other countries apparently? Extra few quid on the cost of the day and fingers crossed this won't be an issue for us

Just to make things more complicated, where does the track owners obligation to keep the track safe come into things.

If you sign something to say 'I agree I cannot pursue any claims', then you go with oil on an otherwise dry track but no red flags etc... Who's fault is that?

Crashes must be fairly common ish, albeit minor ones. I'm suprised this hasn't come up before.

I am on track tomorrow evning for a couple of hours here in France. The first since my new clutch and suspension.(Horaay) The cost is 60 Euros but as i dont have a track/circuit licence i have to pay an extra 22euros for some sort of insurance. I will find out more when i get there.

I will also have to show my mot cert,driving permit and my normal insurance documents.

I think all vehicles have to have an insurance of some sort.

I will try to get it all understood tomorrow night.

After reading all of this I think il be investing in trackday insurance but probably only if it's wet in the uk but if out of the UK il be doing it for certain

Unsure off any companies offering third party track day insurance though.

Since my ordeal I've spoken with a company that specialises in bringing crashed cars back to the UK from the ring. The chap there has been doing the open public sessions for years and this year he was unable to find any company willing to cover the ring. I'd checked my foreign use part of the policy, paid the extra for the green card and was not told of any road/toll road exceptions but the ring is listed in the general exceptions right at the end of the policy.

Yes as Coupedummy says, you can only insure your own car for damage at the moment, nothing more.

What an ordeal

There must be an insurer out there that does

Just waiting to see if my insurer has any joy challenging the claim on the basis of proof he came off on oil from my car and not someone else's or due to his riding. I plan to attempt to challenge the decision of not being covered via the ombudsman and have a specific complaint to support this which I'll divulge once the outcome is decided.

While at the Ring I met another driver who's Porsche 911 burst a coolant hose. He paid out £1300 there and then for clean up and other related charges and faces paying out for a 911 GT3 that crashed into the barrier supposedly on his coolant leak.

Makes you wonder if the Nurburgring is facing financial viability due to these gross "cleanup" costs putting people off that other tracks absorb as part of the day, or if in fact it is the only thing that keeps them going??

What you are experiencing Phil really puts me off going to the Ring, and I really hope it is resolved for you.

I'm sure I read in Evo they said you're taking a massive gamble if you go on the 'ring and the best advice was not to bother.

Well it is putting me off going but it's a track I must do. On the other hand I have friends that go a couple of times a year and they say just drive within your skill level and you will be fine.

With the spillage issues I guess just checking before going out will have to do and if you do have engine failure or gearbox etc then just make sure your covered before hand

Yes it's been this way for a long time. Not a risk I'm willing to take

Good luck Phil.

For my part,i have a pal that goes to the ring on a monthly basis and has no problems.

Its a circuit i wont be trying.

At my local track here in France last saturday evening i saw a 911 wrote off . He had (like me,paid 22 Euros) track insurance for track damage.

He aquaplanned into the pit straight barrier.

Bloody mental. He lost about 40,000 euro car.

I ran on 888s in heavy rain. Spot on with no problems.

My brother and friends went to the nurburg earlier this year and after talking to one of the marshals there, they were told that the ring themselves offer trackday insurance for the day at 25 euros and that covers any breakdowns, towing or barrier repairs etc in the event of an incident. The insurance has apparently been there for ages but the dont publicize it.
How true this is i am not sure.

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=866450


Just had a little read of this it's abit of an eye opener to do with 3rd party cover etc and eu law maybe worth so read to you mate

Thanks. I've already read this thread as I have done extensive research when I returned and my insurer said I wasn't covered. The 'prepared circuit' ruling was pretty much the nail in the coffin for everyone I guess. But certain other issues I have with regard to information given to me I intend to pursue. I have nothing to lose.

With regard to other comments about the Ring scaring people off. I think they'll be ok when you see the cars and people there queuing in their hundreds in cars most of us only dream about. It's us enthusiasts on a budget who will ultimately be pushed out of track days.

What authority does a ruling made in Germany have to someone in the UK?

In NZ/Aus liability insurance is included in our competition licences and events run under motorsport authorities have insurance for the organisers. Are you saying in the UK people organise "private" track days not run under any governing body? That’s crazy stupid and would not happen here.

You can’t contract out of any law (liability) by getting people to sign a waiver. Private organisers could be liabile for injury and all sorts of stuff, you could end up in prison. Even under the proper system, organisers will be in trouble if they are found negligent. i.e. not following procedure etc.