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Oh Hel !!! #1465484
27/12/2013 19:11
27/12/2013 19:11
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,831
Haslemere, Surrey
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Mark_S Offline OP
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Mark_S  Offline OP
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Haslemere, Surrey
This happened to me a couple of months ago, total brake failure at a substantial speed on a D/C:
click to enlarge
click to enlarge

The last time I had hit my brakes was about 4-5 minutes earlier when a car suddenly dived out to pass a lorry in front of me; I hit them quite hard and they were solid. The next time I applied the brakes to go off at my junction there was nothing shocked shocked , just nothing, so cruised half a mile to the next junction with a rising exit and pulled off at the roundabout at the top.

Took a while for it to really sink in just how lucky I had been; in just about any other situation I can think of it would have been an impact at best or wipe out at worst. I can only conclude that it was not my time to go.

Having owned the car for so long, I know all of the sounds it can make. There had been a warning, an intermittent kind of flapping sound which I had concluded was coming from deep in the dashboard in front of the driver, having been on my hands and knees to eliminate the front bumper and engine tray. In hindsight it must have been the braided hose which had come lose and was blowing about in the wind, went on for about a week before eventual failure and loss of all fluid and pressure.

Needless to say I have now reverted to standard rubber hoses! To be clear there was nothing wrong with the hoses themselves, they just got lose and rubbed clean through.

So, I am lucky to tell you this salutary tale.


997 C4S
Re: Oh Hel !!! [Re: Mark_S] #1465488
27/12/2013 19:48
27/12/2013 19:48

A
Alfa_Male
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Please don't tell me that was your idea of securing a brake hose - using a zip-tie.

Re: Oh Hel !!! [Re: Mark_S] #1465489
27/12/2013 19:51
27/12/2013 19:51

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Craig1989
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Craig1989
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Lucky escape. Those hoses should have a rubber grommet around them mounted to the strut though to prevent them from rubbing.

Re: Oh Hel !!! [Re: ] #1465500
27/12/2013 21:15
27/12/2013 21:15
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,831
Haslemere, Surrey
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Mark_S Offline OP
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Haslemere, Surrey
I have the correct rubber grommets on the new hoses. However, this was not where it had come lose, seems the hose was very long and thus able to contact in other places.


997 C4S
Re: Oh Hel !!! [Re: Mark_S] #1465515
27/12/2013 23:36
27/12/2013 23:36

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proccy
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I had the same with the HEL braided hoses, discovered by JBT when he was testing my car and the brakes failed totally shocked

Re: Oh Hel !!! [Re: Mark_S] #1465516
28/12/2013 00:20
28/12/2013 00:20
Joined: Sep 2009
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szkom Offline
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They're wrong for the car. It looks like you've used Na hoses. Why would you replace a solid pipe with a flexible section? If you've been sold those for the turbo, you've a pretty good case for kicking up a stink.

It was also pot luck the hose didn't fail where you've "attached" the hose to the strut.

Huge fitting error and incorrect parts were potentially lethal.

Re: Oh Hel !!! [Re: szkom] #1465528
28/12/2013 09:42
28/12/2013 09:42
Joined: Dec 2005
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Haslemere, Surrey
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Mark_S Offline OP
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Haslemere, Surrey
Originally Posted By: szkom
They're wrong for the car. It looks like you've used Na hoses. Why would you replace a solid pipe with a flexible section? If you've been sold those for the turbo, you've a pretty good case for kicking up a stink.


I think you could be right there, checking the paperwork, this latest set of hoses purchased 2012 are described differently and were cheaper than previous set supplied in 2009. Would perhaps explain the extra length and capacity to move about and chaff.


997 C4S
Re: Oh Hel !!! [Re: Mark_S] #1465529
28/12/2013 09:53
28/12/2013 09:53
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szkom Offline
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I am right. Even If they're supplied as correct. They're designed wrong. They may have survived had you attached them properly to the strut.You're bloody lucky you didn't kill anyone.

Re: Oh Hel !!! [Re: Mark_S] #1465531
28/12/2013 10:00
28/12/2013 10:00
Joined: Dec 2005
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Jimbo Offline
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I'd be more concerned about the idiot that fitted those hoses not them being the wrong hose.
If you fitted them yourself then I'd take yourself a outside for a serious talking to.

You're lucky no one got killed!!

Re: Oh Hel !!! [Re: ] #1465533
28/12/2013 10:19
28/12/2013 10:19

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johnnybravoturbo
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Originally Posted By: proccy
I had the same with the HEL braided hoses, discovered by JBT when he was testing my car and the brakes failed totally shocked


Sends shivers even to this day.
There's no way I could've stopped so had to swerve onto the opposite side of the road.

Proccys had grommets,usually the reason for failure is there too small so on full lock over uneven ground it stresses the union.
This is also visable on an mot test under full lock.

Re: Oh Hel !!! [Re: Mark_S] #1465539
28/12/2013 10:50
28/12/2013 10:50
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,367
Staffordshire
Nigel Offline
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Those are the correct hoses - they replace the solid pipe section from the caliper to the shock body

However, they were designed with two items that are crucially missing in your pictures

1) a sliding grommet in the bracket on the strut - designed to allow the hose to move as the suspension compresses and extends

2) fixed rubber grommets to be positioned where the hose might touch anything - usually near the union on the wheel arch

I'm sorry, but the reason these have failed is because of an incorrect fitting. I've had my Hel hoses fitted for several years without issue


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Re: Oh Hel !!! [Re: Nigel] #1465541
28/12/2013 11:09
28/12/2013 11:09
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,022
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szkom Offline
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I have to disagree, Nigel. While there's no doubt they've been fitted poorly. The design of the hose is appalling.

1. Why would replacing the solid brake line with a flexible one make any sense?

2. A sliding line through a rubber grommet is asking for trouble. Nothing should rub. Period.

I'd suggest you're fortunate rather than proof of success of this product.

Re: Oh Hel !!! [Re: Mark_S] #1465542
28/12/2013 11:21
28/12/2013 11:21

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johnnybravoturbo
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Sorry Nigel I would have to disagree on this.
Its a problem hence the multiple failure posts down the years.

Regardless of blame Proccys were fitted elsewhere and fitted well.
It failed due to the stress at the union.
Even a sliding grommet wouldn't allow the slack to be taken on one side quick enough to stop the fatigue.
Again you can see this when the car is on the ramp,the pipe gets trapped on one side and doesn't return unless the union pulls abnormally on the pipe.
I refuse to fit these as the stock ones don't fail if visually checked every year.
Mine have been on for 5 years now and aren't perished or showing signs.

So I'm with szkom on this one.

Re: Oh Hel !!! [Re: Mark_S] #1465544
28/12/2013 11:27
28/12/2013 11:27
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,418
Lightwater, Surrey
DaveG Offline
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I have these hoses too but don't remember them being supplied with the two rubber grommets, but they are fitted with 'grommets' of some sort as Nigel mentions. Where the hose goes through the bracket on the strut I have a short section of rubber pipe very loosely wrapped around the hose and wedged into the bracket if that makes sense. Never had a problem and no signs of any wear to the hoses, it's hardly likely that the rubber grommets are going to wear out the braided hoses. As for the 'nothing should rub' comment, even the OE hoses are set up with a thick O ring thing around the hose near the inner wing...


1996 Portofino 20vt & 2000 Pearl White Plus
1985½ & 2016 2017 Fiat 124 Spider + XF Sportbrake
Re: Oh Hel !!! [Re: Mark_S] #1465552
28/12/2013 14:05
28/12/2013 14:05

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Alfa_Male
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They were definitely fitted incorrectly, if there was a rubber grommet fixing the flexible hose to the strut and 2 other protection grommets strategically placed this would not have happened.

You can clearly see its worn through the outer plastic coating on the strut-hub bolt.

JBT would you fit a customers brake lines using a zip-tie method, no, you wouldn't.

Re: Oh Hel !!! [Re: DaveG] #1465555
28/12/2013 14:23
28/12/2013 14:23
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szkom Offline
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DaveG, that's very different. What you refer to on the inner wing is protection 'in the event of'. And those are there to prevent direct rubbing of the hose.

What Nigel describes is the ability of the hose to slide through the strut on the grommet. While I agree that practically the grommet isn't likely to wear the hose it's certainly not beyond consideration. Even a small amount of grease or oil there would form a very nice cutting paste. However, thinking practically it's the grommet that will fail and let the hose touch the strut.

So I stand by my nothing should rub comment and that of the hoses being designed wrong.

Re: Oh Hel !!! [Re: ] #1465597
29/12/2013 05:01
29/12/2013 05:01

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johnnybravoturbo
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johnnybravoturbo
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Originally Posted By: Alfa_Male
They were definitely fitted incorrectly, if there was a rubber grommet fixing the flexible hose to the strut and 2 other protection grommets strategically placed this would not have happened.

You can clearly see its worn through the outer plastic coating on the strut-hub bolt.

JBT would you fit a customers brake lines using a zip-tie method, no, you wouldn't.


No I wouldn't,I was making a general statement on these failing in response to my name being mentioned.
It wasn't about this particular failure.

Re: Oh Hel !!! [Re: ] #1465666
29/12/2013 21:27
29/12/2013 21:27

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jobuguk
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I am shocked at the photos above of these Hell flexible hoses the way they have been fitted.

Took my front wheels off today to change my front wings click to enlarge and also check my break lines after reading this post last night,

I have these on the front and rear of my car which i put on with my ongoing project car,i've done what i can to stop any rubbing (see photo) but now i am getting worried about any stress on the bottom union pulling the flexy hose through the grommet as JBT said.

these have been on two years and done about 7,000 miles
click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge

JG

Re: Oh Hel !!! [Re: ] #1465678
29/12/2013 22:53
29/12/2013 22:53
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,144
Southampton, Hants
Roadking Offline
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I'm confused. It appears from posts on here that the problem is a metal brake line has been replaced by a flexible hose. If the original is metal, how is the pipe being pulled through the grommet? That implies the brake line moves somehow, in which case a metal pipe would fracture?

Frankly if the pipe does flex, I'd assume a flexible hose would be a better option.

Or have I mis-read the thread?

Last edited by Roadking; 29/12/2013 22:55.

"RK's way seems the most sensible to me". ali_hire 16 Dec 2010
Re: Oh Hel !!! [Re: Mark_S] #1465708
30/12/2013 07:38
30/12/2013 07:38
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,568
Berlin
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It's a fixed distance from the caliper to the strut; a flexible section there is used to allow the caliper to be removed more easily, without draining the fluid.

The movement occurs between the strut and the inner wing, and as the steering or suspension moves the flex pipe can move just to equalise its own tension/compression, moving through the strut fixing and thereby rubbing.

Although the OEM hose is flexible throughout, it's a much firmer fix at the strut and doesn't slide - or at least, not significantly.


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Re: Oh Hel !!! [Re: Mark_S] #1465719
30/12/2013 09:42
30/12/2013 09:42

C
Craig1989
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Craig1989
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Jobuguk, that fitting looks spot on to me. Correct fitting like that should avoid any problems.

Re: Oh Hel !!! [Re: Mark_S] #1465731
30/12/2013 11:26
30/12/2013 11:26
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szkom Offline
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Jobuguk's look like they'll rub on the inner arch, also note how the hose slides through the grommet on the strut. Again I'd say it's good fortune that the hose hasn't shifted and rubbed through. Granted they've had more thought than the OP's installation, but still.

Re: Oh Hel !!! [Re: szkom] #1465745
30/12/2013 13:57
30/12/2013 13:57
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,144
Southampton, Hants
Roadking Offline
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Thanks Neil thumb


"RK's way seems the most sensible to me". ali_hire 16 Dec 2010
Re: Oh Hel !!! [Re: ] #1466189
02/01/2014 20:26
02/01/2014 20:26

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Alfa_Male
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Originally Posted By: johnnybravoturbo
Originally Posted By: Alfa_Male
They were definitely fitted incorrectly, if there was a rubber grommet fixing the flexible hose to the strut and 2 other protection grommets strategically placed this would not have happened.

You can clearly see its worn through the outer plastic coating on the strut-hub bolt.

JBT would you fit a customers brake lines using a zip-tie method, no, you wouldn't.


No I wouldn't,I was making a general statement on these failing in response to my name being mentioned.
It wasn't about this particular failure.


I am not 'having a go' its just the failures you have encountered in your experience differ to this one in the sense that they were installed differently.

Incorrect installation, this time, is the culprit.

On another note, why have a 'sliding grommet' at all?
The distance between the caliper and strut is a constant where as between the inner wing and strut is variable.
Surely it would be best to fix the length from strut to caliper, then use 3 hose spacers between the strut and inner wing?

Re: Oh Hel !!! [Re: ] #1468407
14/01/2014 17:37
14/01/2014 17:37
Joined: Dec 2005
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Haslemere, Surrey
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Mark_S Offline OP
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Haslemere, Surrey
Originally Posted By: jobuguk

click to enlarge click to enlarge click to enlarge



That looks really well done. thumb

As a long term owner, I am frankly feeling very sheepish and foolish blush having taken a convenient local fitting option. Lying here battling flu I continue to count my chickens and will certainly be entrusting ALL of my future brake related work to the specialists!


997 C4S

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