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My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please #1617336
15/03/2018 17:36
15/03/2018 17:36

J
Juliet_Hotel
Unregistered
Juliet_Hotel
Unregistered
J



Had my 20VT portofino for a year and a half now, it was taxed, MOT'd and insured.

I parked it up on a road near a scrapyard on Tuesday 13th afternoon, got back to it at midnight the next night. Gone. I had a strong suspicion it had been picked up and weighed in. I'd just taken the battery off of it.

I received conformation from an associate that the car was indeed in the scrapyard.

I spent 2 hours in the yard with the police, being intimidated, seeking the parts of my car. I found and alloy. My football which was in the boot, and my Engine.
No sign of the chassis.

The yard of course deny all knowledge of the car.

I really thought the engine was the breakthrough, but none of the numbers on the engine matched my engine code on the logbook.
I simply cannot prove those parts are mine, and without doing a massive sweep of the yard, can't find any other parts.

Can anyone think of a way to nail that engine to me? apparently the engine numbers on the block are illegible anyway.

Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: ] #1617337
15/03/2018 18:03
15/03/2018 18:03
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,450
Scottish Borders
G_Man Offline
Club member 1656
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Scottish Borders
Blimey what a nightmare shocked Just to get this right when did you take the battery out - when you parked it up? I assume your associate is unwilling to speak to the police and how / why did they know that the car was indeed scrapped? I'm assuming that it's someone within the scrappers? Any CCTV in the area? Sorry but can't help on the engine number front.. frown


77 77
Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: ] #1617338
15/03/2018 18:03
15/03/2018 18:03
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,621
Leicester UK
Ballypete Offline
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Leicester UK
Any CCTV in the street or shops around the compound? You could make a statement regarding the theft and the location of parts/property identified to you, from the vehicle and found in the compound. You also have the potential statement from an independent person- the person who told you that the car was indeed inside the compound. Will they support you in the investigation? Bit confused about the illegible numbers as Any competent vehicle examiner will use acid to restore the illegible serial number on the engine- even if they have been hacksawed/filed off the block.

There are issues legally around cars and possession if someone says they have purchased your stoveh legitimately but am surprised the cops haven’t used doctrine of recent possession in relation to handling, or S19 of pace as lawfully on the premises with you when the engine was found...


Doris the 1998 Portofino Blue 20V and Zoe the 1999 Alfa Romeo 916 Spider
Bog standard needn't be boring...
Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: ] #1617339
15/03/2018 18:40
15/03/2018 18:40

G
GrahamL
Unregistered
GrahamL
Unregistered
G



The engine number is here on the side of the engine:

click to enlarge

but it's just about impossible to read other than on a new engine, so you'd need to clean it as said above.

Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: ] #1617343
15/03/2018 20:28
15/03/2018 20:28
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 16,662
Auld Reekie
Edinburgh Offline
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Auld Reekie
Dreadful news, do hope you can pursue this - if anyone knows the lines of enquiry it'll be Ballypete thumb


BumbleBee carer smile
Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: Edinburgh] #1617344
15/03/2018 21:00
15/03/2018 21:00
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,621
Leicester UK
Ballypete Offline
Club Member 1578
Ballypete  Offline
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My life on the forum

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,621
Leicester UK
Originally Posted By Edinburgh
Dreadful news, do hope you can pursue this - if anyone knows the lines of enquiry it'll be Ballypete thumb


Thanks Edinburgh- something else has just sprung to mind. In addition to keeping records including name, address and identity marks (reg mark of vehicle the engine came from) I thought the law was that all scrap must be in the same condition as received for a period of 72 hours after purchase. The council could revoke his licence above and beyond any criminal offences identified if you were to complain to them and they found irregularities on inspection


Doris the 1998 Portofino Blue 20V and Zoe the 1999 Alfa Romeo 916 Spider
Bog standard needn't be boring...
Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: G_Man] #1617345
15/03/2018 22:41
15/03/2018 22:41

J
Juliet_Hotel
Unregistered
Juliet_Hotel
Unregistered
J



Originally Posted By G_Man
Blimey what a nightmare shocked Just to get this right when did you take the battery out - when you parked it up? I assume your associate is unwilling to speak to the police and how / why did they know that the car was indeed scrapped? I'm assuming that it's someone within the scrappers? Any CCTV in the area? Sorry but can't help on the engine number front.. frown


Yes the battery was flat so I removed it to charge it.

My associate lives next door to the yard, has access to it and knows all of the employees there. I have to protect him.

Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: Ballypete] #1617346
15/03/2018 22:47
15/03/2018 22:47

J
Juliet_Hotel
Unregistered
Juliet_Hotel
Unregistered
J



Originally Posted By Ballypete
Any CCTV in the street or shops around the compound? You could make a statement regarding the theft and the location of parts/property identified to you, from the vehicle and found in the compound. You also have the potential statement from an independent person- the person who told you that the car was indeed inside the compound. Will they support you in the investigation? Bit confused about the illegible numbers as Any competent vehicle examiner will use acid to restore the illegible serial number on the engine- even if they have been hacksawed/filed off the block.

There are issues legally around cars and possession if someone says they have purchased your stoveh legitimately but am surprised the cops haven’t used doctrine of recent possession in relation to handling, or S19 of pace as lawfully on the premises with you when the engine was found...


Looks like they have cctv, this is something I'll mention tomorrow when I go to provide more evidence at the station. They'll probably have wiped it by now though.

There was no competent vehicle examiner, just a standard policeman with no mechanical knowledge. Can an engine number really be retrieved if its been ground off?

We found an engine, I know its mine, but there is no proof.

Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: ] #1617347
15/03/2018 22:48
15/03/2018 22:48

J
Juliet_Hotel
Unregistered
Juliet_Hotel
Unregistered
J



Originally Posted By GrahamL
The engine number is here on the side of the engine:

click to enlarge

but it's just about impossible to read other than on a new engine, so you'd need to clean it as said above.


Thanks I'll provide the picture in my evidence and see if they'll pay the yard another visit.

Last edited by Juliet_Hotel; 15/03/2018 22:49.
Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: Ballypete] #1617348
15/03/2018 22:50
15/03/2018 22:50

J
Juliet_Hotel
Unregistered
Juliet_Hotel
Unregistered
J



Originally Posted By Ballypete
Originally Posted By Edinburgh
Dreadful news, do hope you can pursue this - if anyone knows the lines of enquiry it'll be Ballypete thumb


Thanks Edinburgh- something else has just sprung to mind. In addition to keeping records including name, address and identity marks (reg mark of vehicle the engine came from) I thought the law was that all scrap must be in the same condition as received for a period of 72 hours after purchase. The council could revoke his licence above and beyond any criminal offences identified if you were to complain to them and they found irregularities on inspection



I have no proof the vehicle ever went in there.

Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: ] #1617351
16/03/2018 05:33
16/03/2018 05:33
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,522
Berlin
barnacle Offline
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,522
Berlin
The engine number isn't stamped in; it's spark-eroded dot-matrix printed, so I'm not sure the deep structure of the metal will change sufficiently to allow acid recovery.

This may be the first case of a coupe stolen for scrap. There are very few cases of them being stolen at all. You have my sympathies.


[Linked Image]
Don't get no respect! Coupe Fiat 1994-2000 - an owner's guide <-- clicky!
Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: ] #1617356
16/03/2018 07:50
16/03/2018 07:50
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,385
Lightwater, Surrey
DaveG Offline
Club Treasurer Member 311
DaveG  Offline
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Je suis un Coupé

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,385
Lightwater, Surrey
click to enlarge
Here's a picture of the "dot matrix" engine number, it should normally be visible after some wire brushing, unless the surface has been attacked with an angle grinder, but if that's the case, it points to an attempt to conceal its identity.

However, it is difficult to access the engine number. With the engine still in the car it's at the front/far right of the block, at the top (of the block) and obscured by the coolant hose that goes from the coolant rail to the turbo, just to the right of the exhaust manifold. So if the engine was removed in a hurry, it's likely that the manifold, turbo and coolant hose is still in place, and given that the engine number is hard to see at the best of times, it may still be there?

If you have your chassis number you can look up the original engine number on ePer, and the V5C should be correct if it shows an engine number, although it's not unknown for grey imports to have no engine number recorded.

Any other numbers that you may have seen on the block or other parts are casting numbers or part numbers, and won't match anything on the V5C.

Whereabouts in Surrey are you? I'd like to avoid parking near that scrapyard too, especially if they are keen on Porto Blue 20vts!


Last edited by DaveG; 16/03/2018 07:51. Reason: Forgot to add picture

1996 Portofino 20vt & 2000 Pearl White Plus
1985½ & 2016 2017 Fiat 124 Spider + XF Sportbrake
Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: ] #1617357
16/03/2018 07:50
16/03/2018 07:50
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,027
Carlisle
Rob40 Offline
Club Member 1717
Rob40  Offline
Club Member 1717
Enjoying the ride

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Posts: 1,027
Carlisle
Wow, that's unbelievable!

Someone needs to phone them up with a tale of woe saying their coupe was broken into and looking for a replacement rear quarter glass, hopefully it still has the VIN No. stamped on it, or any other part that would tie it in to your coupe.

Good luck!


This is how it should have come out of Torino!
Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: ] #1617358
16/03/2018 07:55
16/03/2018 07:55
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,385
Lightwater, Surrey
DaveG Offline
Club Treasurer Member 311
DaveG  Offline
Club Treasurer Member 311
Je suis un Coupé

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,385
Lightwater, Surrey
Yes, all of the glass should have been etched with the chassis number (last 8 digits, full chassis number on windscreen) if it was a Fiat UK dealer supplied car. And the chassis number is stamped into the offside suspension turret, and there is the VIN plate on the slam panel. But no other stampings (eg: on the floorpan, common on new cars these days) and the "build number" stamped into the boot is of no help unless you happen to have made a note of it before, but then again, the chassis is missing...


1996 Portofino 20vt & 2000 Pearl White Plus
1985½ & 2016 2017 Fiat 124 Spider + XF Sportbrake
Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: ] #1617359
16/03/2018 08:17
16/03/2018 08:17
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 16,662
Auld Reekie
Edinburgh Offline
Club President, member225
Edinburgh  Offline
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Forum veteran

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 16,662
Auld Reekie
Originally Posted By Juliet_Hotel
Had my 20VT portofino for a year and a half now.....

I really thought the engine was the breakthrough, but none of the numbers on the engine matched my engine code on the logbook.
I simply cannot prove those parts are mine, and without doing a massive sweep of the yard, can't find any other parts.

Can anyone think of a way to nail that engine to me? apparently the engine numbers on the block are illegible anyway.



Is there a chance the engine was replaced at some stage? Perhaps if previous owners were forum members some light could thrown on that.

Also if they were to crush most of the car would they strip out the seats first? They'd be quite big to conceal....


BumbleBee carer smile
Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: ] #1617362
16/03/2018 09:08
16/03/2018 09:08
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,385
Lightwater, Surrey
DaveG Offline
Club Treasurer Member 311
DaveG  Offline
Club Treasurer Member 311
Je suis un Coupé

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,385
Lightwater, Surrey
But if the engine had been replaced, the V5C *should* have been updated by the owner


1996 Portofino 20vt & 2000 Pearl White Plus
1985½ & 2016 2017 Fiat 124 Spider + XF Sportbrake
Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: ] #1617365
16/03/2018 09:44
16/03/2018 09:44
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,290
Staffs
Dazvr6 Offline
My job on the forum
Dazvr6  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,290
Staffs
I doubt very much if there is any of it at that yard now the police have been there. Anything that was left would probably have been disposed of that day frown

Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: ] #1617366
16/03/2018 09:45
16/03/2018 09:45
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,095
Berkshire
AnnieMac Offline
Enjoying the ride
AnnieMac  Offline
Enjoying the ride

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,095
Berkshire
What a nightmare! Does your insurance company have any advice?


[Linked Image]
Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: ] #1617367
16/03/2018 09:48
16/03/2018 09:48

G
GrahamL
Unregistered
GrahamL
Unregistered
G



If the V5 doc isn't available when scrapping a car then apparently photo ID and proof of address have to be provided. Presumably the police will be checking that out if they're already involved.

Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: barnacle] #1617385
16/03/2018 15:10
16/03/2018 15:10

J
Juliet_Hotel
Unregistered
Juliet_Hotel
Unregistered
J



Originally Posted By barnacle
The engine number isn't stamped in; it's spark-eroded dot-matrix printed, so I'm not sure the deep structure of the metal will change sufficiently to allow acid recovery.

This may be the first case of a coupe stolen for scrap. There are very few cases of them being stolen at all. You have my sympathies.


Thanks for the info. Yeah they aren't stolen because the key coding to the ecu, i.e. the immobiliser is bloody solid! Mine was towed or lifted onto a truck.

Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: DaveG] #1617386
16/03/2018 15:12
16/03/2018 15:12

J
Juliet_Hotel
Unregistered
Juliet_Hotel
Unregistered
J



Originally Posted By DaveG
click to enlarge
Here's a picture of the "dot matrix" engine number, it should normally be visible after some wire brushing, unless the surface has been attacked with an angle grinder, but if that's the case, it points to an attempt to conceal its identity.

However, it is difficult to access the engine number. With the engine still in the car it's at the front/far right of the block, at the top (of the block) and obscured by the coolant hose that goes from the coolant rail to the turbo, just to the right of the exhaust manifold. So if the engine was removed in a hurry, it's likely that the manifold, turbo and coolant hose is still in place, and given that the engine number is hard to see at the best of times, it may still be there?

If you have your chassis number you can look up the original engine number on ePer, and the V5C should be correct if it shows an engine number, although it's not unknown for grey imports to have no engine number recorded.

Any other numbers that you may have seen on the block or other parts are casting numbers or part numbers, and won't match anything on the V5C.

Whereabouts in Surrey are you? I'd like to avoid parking near that scrapyard too, especially if they are keen on Porto Blue 20vts!



This is really useful info and I'm presenting it as a part of my evidence if you don't mind? (I'm using the picture)

I haven't updated my profile and the car was actually taken from east Hampshire, I'll divulge the exact location at a later date.

Last edited by Juliet_Hotel; 16/03/2018 15:13. Reason: forgot to mention....
Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: Edinburgh] #1617387
16/03/2018 15:16
16/03/2018 15:16

J
Juliet_Hotel
Unregistered
Juliet_Hotel
Unregistered
J



Originally Posted By Edinburgh
Originally Posted By Juliet_Hotel
Had my 20VT portofino for a year and a half now.....

I really thought the engine was the breakthrough, but none of the numbers on the engine matched my engine code on the logbook.
I simply cannot prove those parts are mine, and without doing a massive sweep of the yard, can't find any other parts.

Can anyone think of a way to nail that engine to me? apparently the engine numbers on the block are illegible anyway.



Is there a chance the engine was replaced at some stage? Perhaps if previous owners were forum members some light could thrown on that.

Also if they were to crush most of the car would they strip out the seats first? They'd be quite big to conceal....


I think the engine is original, am I right in thinking that to change the engine, you change the ecu and all locks too? (if you want the same keys to works all locks)

there are no telltale signs that its ever been changed.

Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: ] #1617388
16/03/2018 16:13
16/03/2018 16:13
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,522
Berlin
barnacle Offline
Club Member 18 - ex-Minister without Portfolio
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Forum Demigod

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,522
Berlin
Nope, you can drop any old engine in. Might run a bit rough as the ECU learns it. As long as the stuff on the driver's side of the bulkhead has worked together previously, it'll run any engine.


[Linked Image]
Don't get no respect! Coupe Fiat 1994-2000 - an owner's guide <-- clicky!
Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: DaveG] #1617395
16/03/2018 18:53
16/03/2018 18:53

J
Juliet_Hotel
Unregistered
Juliet_Hotel
Unregistered
J



Originally Posted By DaveG



If you have your chassis number you can look up the original engine number on ePer, and the V5C should be correct if it shows an engine number, although it's not unknown for grey imports to have no engine number recorded.




I've had a quick look on eper, couldn't work out where to go to confirm my engine number. Would anyone mind seeing if they can get any results?

T745 WEU
chassis/VIN: ZFA175000P0062425
engine no: 1238873

Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: ] #1617398
16/03/2018 21:35
16/03/2018 21:35

G
GrahamL
Unregistered
GrahamL
Unregistered
G



Yes, Eper confirms that engine number :

Engine: 1238873 , Vehicle: 00062447 , Manuf. date: 16/10/1998

Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: ] #1617435
17/03/2018 16:25
17/03/2018 16:25
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,462
Kent
Submariner Offline
My job on the forum
Submariner  Offline
My job on the forum

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,462
Kent
You found a Coupe alloy, a Coupe engine and your football? Given that alone would be huge grounds to arrest, Police Officers have double suspicion they suspect an offence has been committed and suspect a person has committed it. There is no need for CCTV evidence at this stage; highly unlikely but once nicked he may cough it during interview.....appallingly shoddy policing..

Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: Submariner] #1617437
17/03/2018 17:18
17/03/2018 17:18
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,621
Leicester UK
Ballypete Offline
Club Member 1578
Ballypete  Offline
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My life on the forum

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,621
Leicester UK
Originally Posted By Submariner
You found a Coupe alloy, a Coupe engine and your football? Given that alone would be huge grounds to arrest, Police Officers have double suspicion they suspect an offence has been committed and suspect a person has committed it. There is no need for CCTV evidence at this stage; highly unlikely but once nicked he may cough it during interview.....appallingly shoddy policing..


Have got to say that in my time in the job I worked with many people that I rated highly and would trust with my life- and then there were a few others that I wouldn't have paid in washers such was the value of their contribution...now I am on the outside I have started to realise that which one you get turning up to your door can be a bit of a lottery...


Doris the 1998 Portofino Blue 20V and Zoe the 1999 Alfa Romeo 916 Spider
Bog standard needn't be boring...
Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: Ballypete] #1617438
17/03/2018 19:48
17/03/2018 19:48
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,831
Haslemere, Surrey
M
Mark_S Offline
Forum is my job
Mark_S  Offline
Forum is my job
M

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,831
Haslemere, Surrey
This is shocking. What is the probability of a Fiat 20VT engine being in there? Miniscule. Hope you get justice.


997 C4S
Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: Ballypete] #1617453
18/03/2018 06:25
18/03/2018 06:25
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,462
Kent
Submariner Offline
My job on the forum
Submariner  Offline
My job on the forum

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,462
Kent
Originally Posted By Ballypete
Originally Posted By Submariner
You found a Coupe alloy, a Coupe engine and your football? Given that alone would be huge grounds to arrest, Police Officers have double suspicion they suspect an offence has been committed and suspect a person has committed it. There is no need for CCTV evidence at this stage; highly unlikely but once nicked he may cough it during interview.....appallingly shoddy policing..


Have got to say that in my time in the job I worked with many people that I rated highly and would trust with my life- and then there were a few others that I wouldn't have paid in washers such was the value of their contribution...now I am on the outside I have started to realise that which one you get turning up to your door can be a bit of a lottery...


Yes indeed Pete and a refreshingly open acknowledgement too. cool

Oh and Happy Birthday!

Last edited by Submariner; 18/03/2018 06:26. Reason: Birthday
Re: My 20vt's been stolen and scrapped, Advice please [Re: Ballypete] #1617513
19/03/2018 05:27
19/03/2018 05:27
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,095
Berkshire
AnnieMac Offline
Enjoying the ride
AnnieMac  Offline
Enjoying the ride

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,095
Berkshire
Originally Posted By Submariner

Have got to say that in my time in the job I worked with many people that I rated highly and would trust with my life- and then there were a few others that I wouldn't have paid in washers such was the value of their contribution...now I am on the outside I have started to realise that which one you get turning up to your door can be a bit of a lottery...


I have unfortunately met a really evil police officer. He handcuffed me in such a way that I was in terrible pain all the way to the hospital (30 minutes), when I was having a nervous breakdown. A couple of years later I found out he had been sacked for photographing the unwell people he arrested and sending the pictures to colleagues because he thought they were funny.


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