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Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: neil_r] #1142521
10/12/2010 11:40
10/12/2010 11:40

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group5lancia
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I didn't mean your accident, as in you personally, I meant it to any person that brakes hard in snowy or icy conditions, particularly when cornering, or drives in a generally stupid way.

Any braking when cornering, but particularly hard braking, is a bad way of driving even on bone dry roads. In the wet, or worse in snowy/icy conditions, it is positively dangerous. End of.

Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: ] #1142531
10/12/2010 11:57
10/12/2010 11:57
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,581
London
MrCooper Offline
I need some sleep
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group5lancia, I don't know, nice puctuation and then letting yourself down by [mistakenly] slating a long standing and helpful forum member. Tsk tsk!



Ex Grigio Moon 20VT Plus
Ex 350Z
Now Aston Martin Vantage

Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: MrCooper] #1142547
10/12/2010 12:14
10/12/2010 12:14

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group5lancia
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group5lancia
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Originally Posted By: MrCooper
group5lancia, I don't know, nice puctuation and then letting yourself down by [mistakenly] slating a long standing and helpful forum member. Tsk tsk!


My appologies if that is what you also read into my post, but it was not my intention; I can't have made myself clear enough.

I was slating bad/unsafe driving in general, particularly in winter conditions. I meant no slur to safe drivers and specifically not to any individual on this forum.

Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: MrCooper] #1142554
10/12/2010 12:25
10/12/2010 12:25
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,522
Berlin
barnacle Offline OP
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Berlin
Originally Posted By: MrCooper
slating a long standing and helpful forum member. Tsk tsk!


Who, me? I don't feel slated. Just a polite discussion.

Oh, wait, you said 'helpful'... must have meant someone else. laugh

A car with the rear wheels locked is *unconditionally* unstable. Sooner or later the back wheels will be leading the way. The discussion is whether this is a likely scenario...

Since I can afford to fit decent snow tyres on each corner, it seems a reasonable thing to do. That way I get the best grip at both ends. I don't generally drive like a loon; in thirty years of driving to Scotland midwinter, usually with normal tyres, the only time I ever got stuck was the last hundred yards trying to get up my sister's drive last year - 1 in 3, eight inches of snow, and a Cupra which required the TCS turning off to let the wheels go around at all. That was *after* the six hundred mile drive at -15C.

And as Lancia says: don't brake on corners. Do it on the straight. Slow in, fast out...


[Linked Image]
Don't get no respect! Coupe Fiat 1994-2000 - an owner's guide <-- clicky!
Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: barnacle] #1142645
10/12/2010 15:31
10/12/2010 15:31
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869
Germany
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If it was possible to do everything by the book, there would be no accidents. We have to remember that even good drivers may become involved because of somebody else's mistake.

A quote from this weeks Telegraph:

"Even after last winter's lessons, we still see drivers over-revving their engines and spinning their wheels on icy surfaces, or driving too close to the car ahead, or failing to anticipate the need to slow down and hitting the brakes too suddenly and too hard."

... "Even if you can drive well in the snow, not everyone else can."

You may have to stop half-way around a bend because someone proving that he has less sense or skill than you is blocking the road. That is when you will be please you did not skimp on those other two winter tyres.

Anyway, I guess there are two camps here. I can live with that smile


1997 20V
2000 V6 manual S-Type and 2011 5.0 XKR
2016 Tucson 1.6T AWD
2018 Mazda2 GT
Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: neil_r] #1142691
10/12/2010 17:57
10/12/2010 17:57
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 32,122
Cumbria
stan Offline
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Originally Posted By: neil_r

Anyway, I guess there are two camps here. I can live with that smile



Yes, they are called Mario and Marco...... wink

Skids: caused by a failure in the human/machine interface, simple as that.


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Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: neil_r] #1142706
10/12/2010 18:28
10/12/2010 18:28

G
group5lancia
Unregistered
group5lancia
Unregistered
G



Originally Posted By: neil_r
You may have to stop half-way around a bend because someone proving that he has less sense or skill than you is blocking the road. That is when you will be please you did not skimp on those other two winter tyres.


Living in the countryside, as I do, I drive around every blind corner expecting the road to be blocked and drive accordingly, whatever the conditions.

Blocked where I live can mean a tractor and trailer taking up all the road, an idiot in a 4 x 4 or anything from a white van to an artic driving down the middle coming the other way, or a stationary car stuck in snow halfway round a blind corner as you suggest. The only way to avoid an accident is to be driving slow enough to stop, whatever the conditions and whatever your tyres. If you can't stop in time, you are driving too fast for the conditions/level of grip. Simples. In my experience, driving with anticipation or what the police and advanced motoring instructors call 'defensive driving' is what avoids accidents - not tyres or tyres alone.

To anyone that feels safer with four winter tyres, I would be the last person to tell them not to. It's a free choice.

Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: ] #1142719
10/12/2010 19:17
10/12/2010 19:17
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,581
London
MrCooper Offline
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Posts: 2,581
London
Originally Posted By: group5lancia
In my experience, driving with anticipation or what the police and advanced motoring instructors call 'defensive driving' is what avoids accidents - not tyres or tyres alone.


Be able to "stop in the distance you can see to be clear". It's that straightforward, or difficult, depending on what you take from it.



Ex Grigio Moon 20VT Plus
Ex 350Z
Now Aston Martin Vantage

Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: MrCooper] #1142721
10/12/2010 19:33
10/12/2010 19:33
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,522
Berlin
barnacle Offline OP
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Berlin
Doesn't everyone drive like that anyway? At least, those of us who can drive?

I'm conscious that we're all furiously agreeing with each other here...


[Linked Image]
Don't get no respect! Coupe Fiat 1994-2000 - an owner's guide <-- clicky!
Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: barnacle] #1142727
10/12/2010 20:05
10/12/2010 20:05
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 32,122
Cumbria
stan Offline
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Originally Posted By: barnacle

I'm conscious that we're all furiously agreeing with each other here...


Hey! If you're looking for an argument, Lancastrians are nicer people......


<waves from the safety of being beyond visual range>


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Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: barnacle] #1142731
10/12/2010 20:10
10/12/2010 20:10
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,581
London
MrCooper Offline
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London
You are quite right. Could not agree more.



Ex Grigio Moon 20VT Plus
Ex 350Z
Now Aston Martin Vantage

Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: MrCooper] #1142748
10/12/2010 21:16
10/12/2010 21:16
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,298
Pontefract, West Yorkshire
andyps Offline
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Going back to the point about remoulds there is an interesting point in evo this month about them that I had never considered - because they are remoulds the carcasses can be from very different tyres so, despite the visible branding and tread pattern, you could could have very different tyres on the same axle. I haven't used remoulds for many years (I once wore a set of remould crossplies out on a mini in less than 3000 miles) so not saying they are good or bad, just an interesting perspective.

One other point, winter tyres on the front, summer tyres on the back, snow, handbrake, fun smile


Andy

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Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: andyps] #1142755
10/12/2010 21:39
10/12/2010 21:39
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,083
Pontypandy
mr_tickle Offline
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Pontypandy
I can't be bothered will all this messing around with winterising the car malarchy.
If the weather is bad I take the winter car instead: an old golf diesel with skinny tyres. ultra reliable and pulls throught the snow no problem.
No frozen locks, doors, fuel caps, handbrakes and the thermostat never fails laugh


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Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: mr_tickle] #1142771
10/12/2010 23:10
10/12/2010 23:10
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,522
Berlin
barnacle Offline OP
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Berlin
What temperature does the diesel fuel start to wax at? <grin, duck, run>


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Don't get no respect! Coupe Fiat 1994-2000 - an owner's guide <-- clicky!
Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: barnacle] #1142781
10/12/2010 23:43
10/12/2010 23:43
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,385
Lightwater, Surrey
DaveG Offline
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Lightwater, Surrey
"arctic" diesel is typically produced with a pour point of -15°C, but the more critical test is CFPP (cold filter plugging point) but that can be improved with additives. Typical summer/europe spec is 0°C pour point.


1996 Portofino 20vt & 2000 Pearl White Plus
1985½ & 2016 2017 Fiat 124 Spider + XF Sportbrake
Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: andyps] #1142787
11/12/2010 00:04
11/12/2010 00:04

G
group5lancia
Unregistered
group5lancia
Unregistered
G



Originally Posted By: andyps
Going back to the point about remoulds there is an interesting point in evo this month about them that I had never considered - because they are remoulds the carcasses can be from very different tyres so, despite the visible branding and tread pattern, you could could have very different tyres on the same axle.


I can't be sure (you can check with Maxsport) but I believe they only use Michelin carcases and each type of tyre uses only one carcass type.

I wouldn't trust imported remoulds, but a remould from a known British manufacturer with a long and good reputation in the business should be ok. I've certainly used them in motorsport with never a failure, despite some pretty rough treatement.

Companies which sell them, like Ears and Demon Thieves, have business reputations to maintain too, and if they sold rubbish their names could be severely tarnished.

A clue to a badly made tyre, or a potentially damaged carcass, is if it won't balance easily; I have had brand new budget tyres (i.e. not remoulds but not mainstream brands either) that have taken more lead to balance than any Maxsport I have used over the years.

Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: ] #1142813
11/12/2010 07:33
11/12/2010 07:33
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 32,122
Cumbria
stan Offline
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Cumbria
Remember to check with your insurance company regarding winter tyres, I jest ye not!

Just to back up my point......


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Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: stan] #1142816
11/12/2010 07:40
11/12/2010 07:40
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 12,643
Watford
MarioCirillo Offline
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Watford
Well that doesnt make sense!!
Even if it reduces the chances of an accident by 1% why on earth would they charge more

BAH! Money Makers laugh


Proud Owner of Rosso Speed LE041
Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: MarioCirillo] #1142822
11/12/2010 07:49
11/12/2010 07:49
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 32,122
Cumbria
stan Offline
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Money, money and more money! They'll use the argument that it's a non-standard modification and charge accordingly, just to keep the shareholders happy. Where insurance is concerned there is no logic applied.

Having said that, I can "sort of" see their point: when the snow disappears how many people will immediately swap back to normal tyres and how many will try to drive normally on winter tyres on dry tarmac?


[Linked Image]
Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: stan] #1142824
11/12/2010 07:50
11/12/2010 07:50
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 12,643
Watford
MarioCirillo Offline
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Whats the implications of using winter tyres on dry tarmac?


Proud Owner of Rosso Speed LE041
Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: MarioCirillo] #1142830
11/12/2010 08:34
11/12/2010 08:34
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,522
Berlin
barnacle Offline OP
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Berlin
(a) they wear out faster
(b) you're unlikely to have the same speed rating (though it will be at least 130mph)
(c) if it rains, you'll stop faster.

So, you'll feel safer and therefore drive like a loon, bumping into things right and left and therefore increasing your risk. The price therefore goes up.

Last year there was a hard frost - -5C - in May...


[Linked Image]
Don't get no respect! Coupe Fiat 1994-2000 - an owner's guide <-- clicky!
Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: barnacle] #1142834
11/12/2010 08:57
11/12/2010 08:57
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 32,122
Cumbria
stan Offline
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Just one other small point to be aware of: winter tyres should be changed when the tread depth gets to 3-4mm.

Reason for highlighting this? I am seeing a lot of naughty people on Ebay who I suspect know this and have bought new winter tyres and decided to prey on the ignorance of the general public by selling their "part worn" old set of winter tyres, where they state that the tread depth is "still up to 4mm in places", in other words, useless and destined for scrap!


[Linked Image]
Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: stan] #1142836
11/12/2010 09:09
11/12/2010 09:09

D
DaveM
Unregistered
DaveM
Unregistered
D



Is the 3-4mm the snow+ice wear bar? I would imagine they are still legal in this country (but perhaps not in countries mandating winter tyres).

Bit pointless, I know winter tyres benefit you on cold wet roads but the major bonus for me is being a bit more controlled on snow+ice.

Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: ] #1142840
11/12/2010 09:20
11/12/2010 09:20
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 32,122
Cumbria
stan Offline
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To the best of my memory/knowledge Dave, they'd be treated as legal without any issues in the UK. I'd have to do some digging to get a definitive answer but I actually doubt that we have a different ruling for winter tyres, in fact I'm sure we don't, it's only a recent phenomenon in the UK.

In the wet, I'd be quite happy at 4mm, but in the snow.....


[Linked Image]
Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: stan] #1142864
11/12/2010 10:33
11/12/2010 10:33
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,522
Berlin
barnacle Offline OP
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Berlin
Ah, memories of trying to do a running commentary live on air while piloting a go-kart around Bradford ice-rink on 'studded' tyres (they'd just shoved a fistful of self-tappers through the rubber from the inside).

I blame Pudsey bear.


[Linked Image]
Don't get no respect! Coupe Fiat 1994-2000 - an owner's guide <-- clicky!
Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: stan] #1142865
11/12/2010 10:43
11/12/2010 10:43
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 602
Inverness Scotland
R
Ryan20VT Offline
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 602
Inverness Scotland
Originally Posted By: stan
Remember to check with your insurance company regarding winter tyres, I jest ye not!

Just to back up my point......

Apparently they have revised their view now, there should be no penalty.



By your command.

Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: Ryan20VT] #1142876
11/12/2010 11:35
11/12/2010 11:35
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 32,122
Cumbria
stan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ryan20VT
Originally Posted By: stan
Remember to check with your insurance company regarding winter tyres, I jest ye not!

Just to back up my point......

Apparently they have revised their view now, there should be no penalty.


Quite right too!! I suspect it's either sensationalist reporting or a storm in a teacup, as usual.

The BBC are rapidly confirming their status as the "Red Top Tabloid" of the internet!


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Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: stan] #1142887
11/12/2010 12:04
11/12/2010 12:04
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,522
Berlin
barnacle Offline OP
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Berlin
It's all since I left.

If the insurance companies considered non-standard tyres as modifications, any car more than a couple of years old would be in trouble; the original tyres for my sixteen haven't been available for ten years in that size.


[Linked Image]
Don't get no respect! Coupe Fiat 1994-2000 - an owner's guide <-- clicky!
Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: barnacle] #1142895
11/12/2010 12:34
11/12/2010 12:34
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 32,122
Cumbria
stan Offline
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Cumbria
Exactly correct Neil! I mean, the tyres fitted to my daily driver were Pirelli "Ditchfinders" and I've never been so glad to get rid of a set of tyres in my life! The insurance company would have had a very time in court if they'd argued that changing the standard tyres was, in any way, a modification from factory standard! In fact when I asked the supplying dealer why they'd gone with those awful tyres he stated that it would be "Just whatever the buyers had managed to get the best deal on that month" and sure enough, look at a pre-registered car a few months older and it had Goodyear tyres fitted! GRRRRR!!!


[Linked Image]
Re: Winter tyres for the 20vt [Re: ] #1142970
11/12/2010 18:18
11/12/2010 18:18
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,298
Pontefract, West Yorkshire
andyps Offline
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Pontefract, West Yorkshire
Originally Posted By: group5lancia
Originally Posted By: andyps
Going back to the point about remoulds there is an interesting point in evo this month about them that I had never considered - because they are remoulds the carcasses can be from very different tyres so, despite the visible branding and tread pattern, you could could have very different tyres on the same axle.


I can't be sure (you can check with Maxsport) but I believe they only use Michelin carcases and each type of tyre uses only one carcass type.

I wouldn't trust imported remoulds, but a remould from a known British manufacturer with a long and good reputation in the business should be ok. I've certainly used them in motorsport with never a failure, despite some pretty rough treatement.

Companies which sell them, like Ears and Demon Thieves, have business reputations to maintain too, and if they sold rubbish their names could be severely tarnished.

A clue to a badly made tyre, or a potentially damaged carcass, is if it won't balance easily; I have had brand new budget tyres (i.e. not remoulds but not mainstream brands either) that have taken more lead to balance than any Maxsport I have used over the years.


You could well be right in all you say about the motorsport remoulds - I was just quoting evo magazine who are usually well informed.

In terms of tread depth, certainly for my wife's Berlingo I will probably just use them on the back during the summer once they have worn down to 3-4mm, it doesn't get cornered hard and we might as well get the use out of them!

The SMMT agreed with insurance companies that there would be no loading of premiums for fitting winter tyres.


Andy

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