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Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: ] #1151632
04/01/2011 19:29
04/01/2011 19:29
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kidderminster
nick_d Offline OP
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kidderminster
according to c&b web sight mine should be 110/110.... So symetrical! Garage that installed engine originally said they checked compressions and they were all between 170-175...
thought that was quiet high considering compressions should rise slightly once run in.... Shouldn't they??

Nick



368bhp @ 1.5 bar
Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: nick_d] #1151644
04/01/2011 19:52
04/01/2011 19:52

T
tricky
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Yeah well yeah in theory smile

A few degrees here and there is'nt going to stop it running anyhow.
Are the cams timed on the correct crankshaft revolution ie; not 180 deg out ?

Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: ] #1151649
04/01/2011 19:59
04/01/2011 19:59
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kidderminster
nick_d Offline OP
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i don't know but i will ask the question as both you and 1nro have both asked about the cams being 180 degrees out now in this thread....!
the car will simply not idle at all at mo.. Will just about start but then only run/idle above 2500/3000 revs.... Where it seems to revs perfectly??
should be seeing engine guy anyway within next few days!!

Nick



368bhp @ 1.5 bar
Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: ] #1151656
04/01/2011 20:10
04/01/2011 20:10
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Posts: 1,618
Oswestry
Genic Offline
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Originally Posted By: sediciRich
Originally Posted By: Genic
Tanc Barret are out your way, there good with the lancia Delta's maybe worth asking them.


Erm, if you like junk yards. For real advice - go over to Neil Smith at NJS in Pershore, he will set you straight, and never ever beats around the bush.http://www.njsalfaromeo.co.uk/
WTF? whats with the arsey comment, was only trying to help the guy FFS.

Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: Genic] #1151665
04/01/2011 20:21
04/01/2011 20:21

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tricky
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Oh yeah I see, one step ahead as usual Nik !
It's quite easy to get wrong if your not familiar with the 16v, especially if youv'e got adjustable pullys fitted.

Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: Genic] #1151668
04/01/2011 20:35
04/01/2011 20:35

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sediciRich
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Originally Posted By: Genic
Originally Posted By: sediciRich
Originally Posted By: Genic
Tanc Barret are out your way, there good with the lancia Delta's maybe worth asking them.


Erm, if you like junk yards. For real advice - go over to Neil Smith at NJS in Pershore, he will set you straight, and never ever beats around the bush.http://www.njsalfaromeo.co.uk/
WTF? whats with the arsey comment, was only trying to help the guy FFS.


Take it how you like but thats the reality of that place sorry you are sensitive.

Nick can you just take a photo of it? It would help if number 1 cylinder was at top dead centre, that is when the big pulley on the end of the crank with its small notch in the outside is in line with the 20mm or so line on the crank cover – you can only see this with the inspection panel removed in the wheel arch. If this is all too much then whoever built your engine will have to confirm its not peculiar to the fiat most engines are the same so if he’s worth his salt then he’d be able to easily confirm if its right. The fact is runs at all make me think its in the ball park and a sensor might be the issue – maybe the cabling to the sensors they are easily damaged and the wires can be damaged, to run it only needs fuel, spark, compression, crank sensor, throttle sensor and cam sensor. I assume you changed round the spark leads on the coil pack to rule that out (normally it wont run at all). The car only knows where TDC is via the cam sensor in combination with crank wheel.


Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: ] #1151676
04/01/2011 20:51
04/01/2011 20:51
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kidderminster
nick_d Offline OP
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kidderminster
i haven't got adjustable pulleys... But i will ask the question.... Thanks 'Nik'.... Lol! ..... & Tricky of course! smile

Nick



368bhp @ 1.5 bar
Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: nick_d] #1151680
04/01/2011 21:00
04/01/2011 21:00

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sediciRich
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sediciRich
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actually nick I just re-read this saga, have you got the std injectors still, it sounds like its too righ which will foul the plugs and when they are wet with fuel they won't spark intead the current is bled to ground. If the cam timing was wildly out you'd get back fires in the inlet or exhaust. I'd shove the old injectors in to rule out the rich issue to an extent.

Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: ] #1151687
04/01/2011 21:20
04/01/2011 21:20
Joined: Oct 2006
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kidderminster
nick_d Offline OP
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'The Saga'..... Lol!
it has been backfiring/popping.... At lower revs! I really really really hope it the cam timing.... grr

Nick



368bhp @ 1.5 bar
Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: nick_d] #1151689
04/01/2011 21:31
04/01/2011 21:31

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sediciRich
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ok, as long as it hasn't bent the valves you should come out of this ok - easily checked with a compression test, whens this chap coming to see it?

Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: ] #1151698
04/01/2011 21:53
04/01/2011 21:53
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,829
kidderminster
nick_d Offline OP
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kidderminster
tomorrow or thurs.... As soon as he's been i'll update the thread buddy!....

Nick



368bhp @ 1.5 bar
Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: Genic] #1151719
04/01/2011 22:31
04/01/2011 22:31

1
1NRO
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Originally Posted By: Genic
Originally Posted By: sediciRich
Originally Posted By: Genic
Tanc Barret are out your way, there good with the lancia Delta's maybe worth asking them.


Erm, if you like junk yards. For real advice - go over to Neil Smith at NJS in Pershore, he will set you straight, and never ever beats around the bush.http://www.njsalfaromeo.co.uk/
WTF? whats with the arsey comment, was only trying to help the guy FFS.


Tanc's might not be as well organised as they might be (breaks my heart to think of the stuff lying out in the elements) but they do most definately know their way round the 16v engine, guys there doing it day in day out. Not sure why Richard is dissing them ...

Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: ] #1151728
04/01/2011 22:52
04/01/2011 22:52
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Genic Offline
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My mate has taken his Delta there and they have always done a great job, 99% they have fitted c@b cams in his if not others, have you had a bad experience with them rich?

Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: Genic] #1152208
05/01/2011 20:24
05/01/2011 20:24

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sediciRich
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Because Nik due to a fundemental argument regarding incorrect information supplied by Barrett to someone who used to come on this forum. Horses for courses, might be alright for Nick, but I'd expect no such mistakes from someone claiming to be an expert (I'm sure you can understand that point of view Nik). Could be some element of hear say, but I had to prove the info given wrong and it was fundementally wrong. I'd not go there.

Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: ] #1152268
05/01/2011 21:38
05/01/2011 21:38

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1NRO
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:)I don't know the nature of the misinfomation but I catch your drift, nobody is perfect though, mistakes can happen.

Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: nick_d] #1152323
06/01/2011 00:27
06/01/2011 00:27

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fcck2000
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Nick,
If you have standard pullies then it's a simple job to set the engine at TDC and also check cam timing without taking the rocker cover off.
My guess after reading this thread is that your engine builder has put the exhause pulley on the inlet cam and visa versa.
Can you see the marks on the rear of each pulley when looking through the instection holes when the sparkplug cover is removed and the engine is at TDC?
To check the engine is timed correctly should take 5 mins, only things to remove are spark plug cover and a sparkplug.
Paul

Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: ] #1152729
06/01/2011 18:10
06/01/2011 18:10

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sediciRich
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sediciRich
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Paul thats what I was thinking - but do both cams have the drive for the cam phase sensor? Or maybe the cam sensor isnt spinning without a drive?? - I cant remember if thats possible as I removed the distributor on my 16v.

Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: ] #1152764
06/01/2011 19:03
06/01/2011 19:03
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,829
kidderminster
nick_d Offline OP
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kidderminster
this is entirely possible as the engine builder DID NOT take it to pieces.... The numty place that that stripped it could well have misinformed him to what parts were what...?
Also as the engine guy has been out and checked the timing once... If the pulley wheels are the wrong way then no matter how many times he checks it, it will be right 'to him' as he thinks the pulleys are correct.... Think I'll alert him to this possibility!

nick



368bhp @ 1.5 bar
Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: nick_d] #1152867
06/01/2011 22:37
06/01/2011 22:37

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group5lancia
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Originally Posted By: nick_d
the cams are in if we look at it like the points of the cams are hands on clock are: inlet points to 7-8 mins..... Therfore the exhaust cam should point to 52-53 mins... But its more like 48-49....

hope this makes sense... Lol smile

nick


By my reckoning (by calculation), at TDC on the inlet stroke and timed at 110 degrees and using your clockface notation, the inlet cam should be between 5 and 6 minutes past and the the exhaust cam at 43 minutes past. Each minute away from that will be 12 degrees out. So it looks like the inlet cam COULD be 50 degrees or more advanced than it should be and the exhaust cam 72 degrees advanced.

If this is the case (which may be down to the pulleys being on the wrong cams) I am sure that any cam signal would be so far out timing wise that the ECU would not be able to use it.

Last edited by group5lancia; 07/01/2011 08:40.
Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: ] #1152895
06/01/2011 23:36
06/01/2011 23:36

T
tricky
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Gee, how can you tell all that confused

Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: ] #1152996
07/01/2011 09:56
07/01/2011 09:56
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,829
kidderminster
nick_d Offline OP
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kidderminster
think you were right the first time before you edited it... Inlet should be at 17 (on clock face) and exhaust on 43.... This does seem to suggest that the cam wheels may be wrong way round.... Is this easy fix... i.e do-able with engine in?

nick



368bhp @ 1.5 bar
Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: nick_d] #1153142
07/01/2011 13:08
07/01/2011 13:08

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group5lancia
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I'm sure I did the maths wrong late last night - and maybe messed it up again this morning, so I'll go through it here and maybe someone can spot a mistake.....

At TDC the inlet cam should be 55 (cam) degrees before full lift and the exhaust cam should be 55 (cam) degrees after full lift. On a clock face this would be approximately 9.2 minutes after the hour for the inlet cam and 39.2 minutes after the hour for the exhaust cam.

But each valve is inclined at 23 degrees, so looking at the cams from the front, the 'clock face' on the inlet cam needs to be rotated 23 degrees clockwise and the 'clock face' on the exhaust cam needs to be rotated 23 degrees anti-clockwise.

Turning the inlet cam clock face 23 degrees is the same as subtracting 3.8 minutes from the 'time' and a similar number of minutes would need to be added to the exhaust cam 'time'. That's how I arrived at 5(.333) minutes past and 43 minutes past

Last night I turned the clock faces the wrong way in my head (inlet cam anti-clockwise and exhaust cam clockwise) which gave, what I now think, was the wrong numbers.

I don't think the engine would run at all if the cam timing was as far out as I calculated last night, which is what made me look at it again!

Last edited by group5lancia; 07/01/2011 13:23.
Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: ] #1153200
07/01/2011 15:33
07/01/2011 15:33

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group5lancia
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group5lancia
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Nope, I'm wrong again above! (But I was right last night!)

55 degrees before full lift on the inlet cam would mean the cam would be 9.2 minutes before the half hour on a clock face referenced to the inlet valve, not after mid day!

Adjusted by the 23 degrees/3.8 minutes to allow for the valve angle would mean the inlet cam would be at 17 minutes past the hour. The exhaust cam would still be at 43 minutes past the hour.

I think it's staggering that your engine runs at all with the inlet cam apparently so many degrees retarded!




Last edited by group5lancia; 07/01/2011 16:06.
Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: nick_d] #1153324
07/01/2011 17:54
07/01/2011 17:54

T
tricky
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Pictures might help eh, With pistons 1+4 at TDC (referenced by the marks on the bottom belt pully) you need to take off the crank front pullys to see it, the marks on the large outer pully that align with the belt cover or whatever are not at true tdc.

In the picture below is where the camshafts should point to, when the crank is lined up (roughly, these ones are timed at 115 deg not that you can tell exactly by looking) This is on No. 1 cylinder looking towards the back of the pullys from gearbox side.

If you have the cam pullys on the wrong way round, the cams will point in more or less opposite directions and this will put you 180 deg out of sync.

click to enlarge

Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: ] #1153332
07/01/2011 18:10
07/01/2011 18:10

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sediciRich
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sediciRich
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Tricky the notch on the harmonic balancer lines up fully with the long mark on the cam cover I check that. Its only compounded by the confusion of the 2 smaller marks. For a quick check they should be sufficient (its not as good as a real firm line on under I know but that involves taking the Alt and PAs belt away), but I'm not sure Nick will be able to do this at the moment? The balancer Nick on the end of the crank can only fit on one way - assuming the bolts have not been forced in. Tricky's picture shows you what you need to know.

Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: ] #1153352
07/01/2011 18:32
07/01/2011 18:32
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kidderminster
nick_d Offline OP
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well those cams are pointing pretty much the complete opposite to mine.... So that pretty much comfirms my cam pulley wheels are the wrong way round!
NUMPTY'S!!! grr

nick



368bhp @ 1.5 bar
Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: nick_d] #1153379
07/01/2011 18:59
07/01/2011 18:59

T
tricky
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If that is the case right now, with both the crank and the cam marks lined up.

Don't take the belt off and move any of the shafts, best to turn the whole engine untill the actual cams lobes are pointing like the picture, take off the belt, turn the crank only about 90 deg, swap the pullys over and line up the cam marks acuratley, then bring the crank back to it's tdc mark. Then fit belt, this will eliminate any valves clashing or piston hitting valves. Good luck

Last edited by tricky; 07/01/2011 18:59.
Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: ] #1153388
07/01/2011 19:13
07/01/2011 19:13
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,829
kidderminster
nick_d Offline OP
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kidderminster
thanks Tricky..... Seems a simple fix!?

Nick



368bhp @ 1.5 bar
Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: nick_d] #1153399
07/01/2011 19:20
07/01/2011 19:20

T
tricky
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Hopefully, just be carefull.

What other mods have you done then ?

Re: so near but yet so far? [Re: ] #1153448
07/01/2011 20:04
07/01/2011 20:04
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,829
kidderminster
nick_d Offline OP
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kidderminster
ok... Thanks for advise bud!

Mods:

C&b max road cams
wossner 84.6 pistons

balancer shafts removed

whole bottom end lightened & balanced

head polished & ported

pro alloy intercooler

630 siemens injectors

inlet manifold ported

tubular manifold

Hybrid turbo with 360 thrust bearing, stepped oil seal, cut back blades..(turbo guy called it a t38?) journal bearing... Originally a/r48 hot side but i've changed to a 55 (rare)...

sip with k&n group a cone

2.75" turbo elbow and downpipe, stepping down to 2.5"

uprated fuel pump with live feed

uprated clutch

and after Fleas had it, it will have
3 bar map sensor and Apexi AVRC with hope fully 3 settings!!

think that's it... Lol

nick



368bhp @ 1.5 bar
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