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cylinder head failure caused by corrosion #1630065
25/02/2019 21:23
25/02/2019 21:23
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 259
Italy, Reggio Emilia
hangar1138 Offline OP
Club member 1472
hangar1138  Offline OP
Club member 1472
Making a profit

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 259
Italy, Reggio Emilia
hi friend
I open this thread to inform the forum to what happened to me on 14th of february

Countrycruising already knows the story because we wrote some PM and mails in these days.

This is what happened:

14 february trip to Bologna from my town around 100 km 68 of these in highway

I very often check oil temp oil press and water temp expecially on these medium range trips. I was almost arrived and once again I checked the water and..... the indicator was stuck at 130°C .... it was terrible at 150 km/h on the overtake lane of the one of the most important and traficated highways....

I checked oil: temp and pressure were right. I immediately stopped the car in one emergency stop area on the highway and sadly I called for towing.

Steam was going out from under the expansion tank and I supposed that only 1 hose was broken...not bad.

Towing truck brought me to a garage near Bologna and when the car was down from the ramp I cant start engine, no also move from starter electric motor.
Guys of the garage removed all sparks and found water inside the chamber of the cylinder most near to thermostatic valve.

So, second towing to my usual garage.

click to enlarge
click to enlarge

Now the car is in Suzzara 15 km from my town in the Daniele Mariotti garage, specialized in works with Lancia Delta, various Ferrari and in general with sport cars.

He sent my 2 pics: in 1 is clearly visible an hole and in the other 1 detail of the head removed

click to enlarge
click to enlarge

Now some more pictures:

click to enlarge
click to enlarge
click to enlarge
click to enlarge
click to enlarge

please note that:

- thermostatic valve was changed in 2013 (hose of death failure)

- the sleeve of the "hose of death" was also changed in 2013 (hose of death failure)

now I have the whole head the sleeve and the thermostat valve extremely corroded...why?

The coolant used was regular Paraflu and sometimes I topped it with demineralized water. Mariotti says that he had never seen such a corrosion and for him the problem is Paraflu that after years became corrosive on the alloys parts.
This is confirmed also by installes of my solar thermal system which use glycol as exchage liquid between the solar collector on the roof and my water tank in garage. I started to see similar signs of corrosions on some hose connectors. This system started service in january 2012.

The rest of engine is in very good conditions so I listened the advice of Mr. Mariotti and use from now after this expensive repair the liquid

We decided with sir. Mariotti to use in place of standard paraflu coolant a waterless coolant:

click to enlarge

I also found this Edd China in Wheeler Dealer...

Edd China Wheelers Dealers

The most important thing with Evans is to not mix it with any other liquid (water included)

Very interested in all your considerations. I'm very afraid to put again Paraflu in this engine.

Thank you!

ciao

Re: cylinder head failure caused by corrosion [Re: hangar1138] #1630071
25/02/2019 22:59
25/02/2019 22:59
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 601
Spain
avtokrator Offline
Enjoying the ride
avtokrator  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 601
Spain
That’s indeed an absolutely massive amount of corrosion, and I have seen many cars run with tap water for 10-15 years, you know what maintenance means for some people in this part of Europe, saying this, and only in my humble opinion, I think this has more to see with the coolant than with the water. Also have some observations that the coupe have tendency to galvanic corrosion (which some coolants could accelerate) especially if the copper radiator is still used. To be sincere, have always used the optimum products for all my cars, at least in my consideration and availability/price/needs basis, starting with the oil and finishing with the bulbs, but have never applied this rule to the coolant, normally use some general “supermarket” brands or bought in bulk coolant we use for trucks, and never have had any problem with these, but also change it every 2-3 years...so, would suggest to investigate in the bad coolant and galvanic corrosion directions; copper, aluminium, steel, bad earths ans so on...Also use some normal coolant and change it regularly. The opinions on these fancy name/bottle coolants are a bit divided.

Re: cylinder head failure caused by corrosion [Re: hangar1138] #1630076
26/02/2019 08:02
26/02/2019 08:02
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,563
Melbourne, Australia
Scuderia Offline
My life on the forum
Scuderia  Offline
My life on the forum

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,563
Melbourne, Australia
Paraflu 11 will work fine but it is old tech and short life. It needs changing every 1 to 2 years.

I don't think I've ever seen a system that bad. I suspect something else to be contributing. Perhaps electrolysis caused by poor electrical connections.

I'm not a fan of Evans, I believe it needs every last drop of water removed or it won't work. Not a practical solution for most.

Re: cylinder head failure caused by corrosion [Re: hangar1138] #1630079
26/02/2019 10:31
26/02/2019 10:31
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,830
FCSS 01684 593187
Countrycruising Offline
Club Rep Europe, member 914
Countrycruising  Offline
Club Rep Europe, member 914
I AM a Coop

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,830
FCSS 01684 593187
It's certainly a rare occurrence to see alloy corrosion like this on a coupe, in my years I've only experienced it once before which was caused by the owner running it on tap water and then leaving it drained for a few years, the alloy had turned to jelly so when it came to me for repair there was no way of knowing it would fail until it did.

Head failure due to alloy corrosion.

Re: cylinder head failure caused by corrosion [Re: hangar1138] #1630090
26/02/2019 12:16
26/02/2019 12:16
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 32,183
Hemel in the Hempstead
barnacle Offline
Club Member 18 - Minister without Portfolio
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 32,183
Hemel in the Hempstead
Bloody hell, that looks as if you've been running minestrone as a coolant. Mine's 25 years old and nothing like that.

You only get electrolytic corrosion if there's a current path, and the standard water and antifreeze mixes are supposed to be non-ionic. Is it possible that you have previously been sold a counterfeit coolant? I know there are plenty of counterfeit parts out there, and coolant is pretty generic so easy to shift a few crates in amongst the real stuff.


[Linked Image]
Don't get no respect! [b]Coupe Fiat 1994-2000 - an owner's guide[/b] <-- clicky!
Re: cylinder head failure caused by corrosion [Re: barnacle] #1630100
26/02/2019 13:27
26/02/2019 13:27
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 259
Italy, Reggio Emilia
hangar1138 Offline OP
Club member 1472
hangar1138  Offline OP
Club member 1472
Making a profit

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 259
Italy, Reggio Emilia
Originally Posted by barnacle
Bloody hell, that looks as if you've been running minestrone as a coolant


biglaugh biglaugh biglaugh

minestrone made me laugh a lot... and maybe "minestrone della nonna" was less corrosive!!

by the way if no one has never seen a thing like that, something very strange and different is happened to my car

ok it's modded but with usual mods that most of us have made on the car

what about possible causes?

- galvanic corrosion?
- bad coolant quality?
- poor electrical connections?
- mods on the car?

thaks to all your partecipation

Re: cylinder head failure caused by corrosion [Re: hangar1138] #1630192
28/02/2019 14:08
28/02/2019 14:08
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 538
Freedom
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Club member 583
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Posts: 538
Freedom
Sorry you have had this happen,

That looks like corrosion you find in some areas with extreme limescale. Its like the system was filled purely with tap water.

The engine was sadly on a one way ticket with corrosion like that in the system.

Whats the diagnosis for repair?

MM

Re: cylinder head failure caused by corrosion [Re: hangar1138] #1630236
01/03/2019 11:42
01/03/2019 11:42
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 259
Italy, Reggio Emilia
hangar1138 Offline OP
Club member 1472
hangar1138  Offline OP
Club member 1472
Making a profit

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 259
Italy, Reggio Emilia
the reapair is a little late cause the garage has to finish a service on a F355 "Challenge" gearbox for a UK customer...

we have for now:

- a second hand new cylinder head freshly milled
- a new thermostat valve
- new Motul 300V competition 15W50 6 liter oil
- new oil filter
- 10 liter Evans liquid
- 2 new sensor on the engine block

Last edited by hangar1138; 01/03/2019 11:43.
Re: cylinder head failure caused by corrosion [Re: hangar1138] #1631219
30/03/2019 09:42
30/03/2019 09:42
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 259
Italy, Reggio Emilia
hangar1138 Offline OP
Club member 1472
hangar1138  Offline OP
Club member 1472
Making a profit

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 259
Italy, Reggio Emilia
hi friends
the car has come back at home; today I will post some pics
please only don't ask for bill because here we are speaking of marriagexit coat

Re: cylinder head failure caused by corrosion [Re: hangar1138] #1631220
30/03/2019 10:17
30/03/2019 10:17
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 259
Italy, Reggio Emilia
hangar1138 Offline OP
Club member 1472
hangar1138  Offline OP
Club member 1472
Making a profit

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 259
Italy, Reggio Emilia
here is the final pictures:

click to enlarge
click to enlarge
click to enlarge
click to enlarge
click to enlarge
click to enlarge
click to enlarge
click to enlarge
click to enlarge
click to enlarge

Re: cylinder head failure caused by corrosion [Re: hangar1138] #1631229
30/03/2019 10:32
30/03/2019 10:32
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 32,183
Hemel in the Hempstead
barnacle Offline
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barnacle  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 32,183
Hemel in the Hempstead
Originally Posted by hangar1138
here is the final pictures:

click to enlarge


I was wrong. It wasn't minestrone, it was puttanesca sauce. And possibly the spaghetti was also circulating in there.

Neil


[Linked Image]
Don't get no respect! [b]Coupe Fiat 1994-2000 - an owner's guide[/b] <-- clicky!
Re: cylinder head failure caused by corrosion [Re: hangar1138] #1631234
30/03/2019 12:18
30/03/2019 12:18
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 259
Italy, Reggio Emilia
hangar1138 Offline OP
Club member 1472
hangar1138  Offline OP
Club member 1472
Making a profit

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 259
Italy, Reggio Emilia
Neil

it was only Paraflu topped with demineralized water

the mistery still not solved

the part you have reported it was changed in 2013 during "hose of death" failure

Re: cylinder head failure caused by corrosion [Re: hangar1138] #1631250
30/03/2019 19:27
30/03/2019 19:27
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 32,183
Hemel in the Hempstead
barnacle Offline
Club Member 18 - Minister without Portfolio
barnacle  Offline
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Forum Demigod

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 32,183
Hemel in the Hempstead
Something has caused a severe electrolytic corrosion. Is it possible that the paraflu was counterfeit? (actually I think I might have already suggested this, but the whole point of the correct coolant is that it is a corrosion inhibitor, as it doesn't contain any ionic chemistry).


[Linked Image]
Don't get no respect! [b]Coupe Fiat 1994-2000 - an owner's guide[/b] <-- clicky!
Re: cylinder head failure caused by corrosion [Re: hangar1138] #1632306
07/05/2019 06:48
07/05/2019 06:48
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 259
Italy, Reggio Emilia
hangar1138 Offline OP
Club member 1472
hangar1138  Offline OP
Club member 1472
Making a profit

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 259
Italy, Reggio Emilia
Coop is back now I have to drive carefully under 3000 rpm without raging for around 1000 km and after I will have "medical" check of the work

for now I have an unusal question: after this work the smell of the exhaust gas is really different from before...

difficult to explain but in general much more strong than before, is it possible or this is a signal of something other to pay attention?

thank you

Re: cylinder head failure caused by corrosion [Re: hangar1138] #1632355
08/05/2019 09:27
08/05/2019 09:27
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,830
FCSS 01684 593187
Countrycruising Offline
Club Rep Europe, member 914
Countrycruising  Offline
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I AM a Coop

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,830
FCSS 01684 593187
Good to read you're back up and running Davide, as for the exhaust smell are you saying it's richer?

Re: cylinder head failure caused by corrosion [Re: hangar1138] #1632359
08/05/2019 10:10
08/05/2019 10:10
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 259
Italy, Reggio Emilia
hangar1138 Offline OP
Club member 1472
hangar1138  Offline OP
Club member 1472
Making a profit

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 259
Italy, Reggio Emilia
thank you Joe for answer

can't say if is richer the smell is more heavy and penetrating but I have A/F ratio gauge in my dashboard so can I make some tests with this instrument?

Re: cylinder head failure caused by corrosion [Re: hangar1138] #1632366
08/05/2019 15:05
08/05/2019 15:05
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,830
FCSS 01684 593187
Countrycruising Offline
Club Rep Europe, member 914
Countrycruising  Offline
Club Rep Europe, member 914
I AM a Coop

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,830
FCSS 01684 593187
I think you're smelling a freshly rebuilt engine, takes a few heat cycles to clear that smell and lets not forget you're going to be super paranoid of everything at the moment, noise, clonks and eyes on stalks watching your dials.

Re: cylinder head failure caused by corrosion [Re: hangar1138] #1632396
09/05/2019 20:01
09/05/2019 20:01
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 259
Italy, Reggio Emilia
hangar1138 Offline OP
Club member 1472
hangar1138  Offline OP
Club member 1472
Making a profit

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 259
Italy, Reggio Emilia
laugh laugh
Joe, you described perfecty my emotions now! how do you do that?
I feel really nervous and worried I check every 20 sec: oil press, oil temp, water temp

in these days I'm also testing the new 5 speed gearbox after the collapse of the 6 speed box and I'm double under pressure

the things are going better to be honest for now

I think that Evans Power Cool is a good choice but I see that is a little worse that water/paraflu with temperatures during traffic jam or traffic light waits.

Now the weather is still acceptable during day but what will happens when we will have 40°C in june or july

this is my main doubt for now because as I said Evans has lower specific heat than water.


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