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Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: karl_20VT] #1617821
25/03/2018 21:54
25/03/2018 21:54
Joined: Oct 2010
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Denmark
mli Offline
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Thanks for following up guys.

@ cc: yeah 10w-60 probably best - I think I misunderstood SAE J300 when I read about it yesterday. 60 means higher viscosity at hot engine... When I changed to 10w-40 last night my oilpressure dropped to 1.5bar hot idle (from 2.5bar with 10w-60).
Also noise is slightly worse with 10w-40 - and comes back a bit quicker when going from 1500rpm back to idle. (Oilpressure drops slightly quicker as well).

@mago: i guess noise from manifold would not disappear when changing temp/revs?

@graham: I haven't timed exactly - but my notion is that noise is there for 2-3mins after cold start. Then while engine is warming up the noise disappear for about 7-10mins.
Then the noise start to appear slowly when engine reaches normal temp.

My theory was that some tappets were not able to keep oilpressure inside (eg due to poor retain valve inside) - hence I cleaned all and changed 4.
But since all feels hard now I'm not sure...
I'm considering now if it's due to 1 or more tappets being too small in diameter - hence can tilt slightly when pushed by cam? I noticed that one tappet can tilt slightly...
Can this create noise when hitting cylinder for tappets?
I guess noise from this would disappear with higher oilpressure.

Re lazy valve: not sure I understand how noise can disappear if this is the reason.

@graham re blocked oil channel: this is a used cylinder head I got - don't know if it's been stored for long all dirty.
Now I'm sad I didn't do a complete cleaning of it before installing...

Next step:
Check gaps for tappets with gauge.
Recheck hardness and tilt for all tappets.


SprintBlue 20vt '97
Prev.:Coupe16v'94,Alfa156/33,MareaSW,2xPunto,2xUno
Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: karl_20VT] #1617823
26/03/2018 04:25
26/03/2018 04:25
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,185
Staffordshire
Nigel Offline
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Nigel  Offline
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Staffordshire
Has this engine been run at high boost? (Eg 1.5 bar or above?)

Is it modified at all?

I only ask because I had all 20 tappets replaced on my last Coupe and it turned out to be a bent rod (piston slapped the bore on the exhaust stroke only, hence a “half engine speed” knocking)


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Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: karl_20VT] #1617830
26/03/2018 08:16
26/03/2018 08:16
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,696
Pothole City
GrahamL Offline
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Once it's warmed up and the knocking is there at idle, then you rev it and noise disappears... how long does it take for noise to come back when you stop revving it and engine is idling again?

Have you actually driven it properly on the road to see what happens when you have high oil pressure for a long time?

Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: karl_20VT] #1617889
26/03/2018 20:38
26/03/2018 20:38
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mli Offline
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Thanks for interest and inputs!

@nigel
I don't have complete history but I haven't pushed it very hard.
But the reason for changing the cylinder head was blown gasket and water coming in one (or two) of the cylinders.
This could have lead to bent piston rod I guess :-/ (oh my)
As I recall - but not sure at all - pistons were flush with engine block. Maybe thats what I want to remember...

In your case did the knocking disappear when revs were a bit higher? (Eg >1500rpm)


@graham: the noise/clacking/knocking reappear some 2-3secs after drops to idle. Following the drop in oilpressure it seems.
I haven't had the car on the road recently. No registration... But a few trips around the field could probably be done without risk :-) (countryside)
As replacement for driving I had it running at 3000rpm for 1-2mins - after warming up - after changing tappets.

M


SprintBlue 20vt '97
Prev.:Coupe16v'94,Alfa156/33,MareaSW,2xPunto,2xUno
Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: karl_20VT] #1617890
26/03/2018 20:45
26/03/2018 20:45
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mli Offline
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Sorry nigel: I think it's standard turbo etc - the guy that had it before me wanted to keep an original setup.
(It has adjustable shocks though...)


SprintBlue 20vt '97
Prev.:Coupe16v'94,Alfa156/33,MareaSW,2xPunto,2xUno
Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: karl_20VT] #1617891
26/03/2018 21:00
26/03/2018 21:00
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 179
kent
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kent
Go give it the Italian road test lol

Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: karl_20VT] #1617902
27/03/2018 06:05
27/03/2018 06:05
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mli Offline
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Yep moon smile Will do Thursday.

If it's actually oil channels that are a bit restricted by sludge then maybe I should try putting a cleaning agent in the oil?
I watched some videos of people (us guys) trying cleaning agent in oil when having noisy valves/tappets. It worked for some of them.
Does anyone have experience with this? (Some states there's a risk of overfilled filter hence sending debris around filter through by-pass)

M


SprintBlue 20vt '97
Prev.:Coupe16v'94,Alfa156/33,MareaSW,2xPunto,2xUno
Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: karl_20VT] #1617937
27/03/2018 19:33
27/03/2018 19:33
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mli Offline
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Hi guys

Further updates:

Tried oil system cleaning: warm idle oilpressure went up to 1.9-2.0bar - nice. (From 1.5bar before)
Did not change clacking/knocking noise though...

But I timed when noise starts (at idle):
At cold start: various noise incl clacking
After 3mins: begins going silent
After 10mins: clacking slowly begins.

Another finding:
Warm engine- noise is there: when I pull out cyl3 ignition coil then noise is muted significantly (although still there)

Listen/watch here:
Cold start with various noise:
coldstartnoise
After 3-4mins getting quiet:
after8mins
When warm - notice when cylinder 3 disconnect:
noise warm

So, I tend to think that I have 'piston slap' ? eg due to a bent rod :-( so this only give noise on exhaust stroke... (Hence at half engine speed)
@graham: like yours?

I'm not really happy though :-(

Last edited by mli; 27/03/2018 19:38.

SprintBlue 20vt '97
Prev.:Coupe16v'94,Alfa156/33,MareaSW,2xPunto,2xUno
Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: karl_20VT] #1617939
27/03/2018 19:40
27/03/2018 19:40
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mli Offline
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Hi guys

Further updates:

Tried oil system cleaning: warm idle oilpressure went up to 1.9-2.0bar - nice. (From 1.5bar)
Did not change clacking/knocking noise though...

But I timed when noise starts (at idle):
At cold start: various noise incl clacking
After 3mins: begins going silent
After 10mins: clacking slowly begins.

Another finding:
Warm engine- noise is there: when I pull out cyl3 ignition coil then noise is muted significantly (although still there)

Listen/watch here:
Cold start with various noise:
coldstartnoise
After 3-4mins getting quiet:
after8mins
When warm - notice when cylinder 3 disconnect:
noise warm

So, I tend to think that I have 'piston slap' ? eg due to a bent rod :-( so this only give noise on exhaust stroke... (Hence at half engine speed)
@nigel: like yours?

I'm not really happy though :-(


SprintBlue 20vt '97
Prev.:Coupe16v'94,Alfa156/33,MareaSW,2xPunto,2xUno
Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: karl_20VT] #1617940
27/03/2018 20:04
27/03/2018 20:04
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,696
Pothole City
GrahamL Offline
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Mine sounds like this and it's just a noisy tappet:

http://sendvid.com/mbumb1uc

If mine is left idling for a long time the tappet gets noisy like that but after a few mins of normal driving it's OK again. Fine from cold start too unless it's been left standing for weeks, but most coupes have noisy tappets then.

If your noise is going away with high revs but appearing again within a few secs of idling then it may not just be a tappet, as a tappet shouldn't be draining that quickly unless it has a major problem.

Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: karl_20VT] #1617977
28/03/2018 21:45
28/03/2018 21:45
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 55
Teresopolis
SVC Offline
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Try to measure the compression of each cylinder.

You should get something about 150 psi or 10 bar.

Differences between cylinders greater than 20% is not good.

This test will tell you if your engine have a bad gaskets and/or bent rod/pin.

Here is a how to, just in case

Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: karl_20VT] #1619821
02/05/2018 17:03
02/05/2018 17:03
Joined: Oct 2010
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mli Offline
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Hi Guys.

Sorry for the silence - I had to fix some stuff in the garden/house...

@graham: you're right - with functional tappets they should stay 'full' after first running in. And when I checked last time they were all firm (rocker cover off and pushed each with a plastic pin).

@ SVC: My plan was to check compression on all cylinders this week - but ran short of time frown

Other news:
I gave it a good italian road test Monday :-)
I seem to have power.
But I noticed a couple of times: when accelerating modestly I seem to hear clacking/knocking noise following revs - indicating trouble...

So, a couple of theories:

1. bent rod on cylinder 3
-> seems valid as I can hear reduction of noise when removing coil on #3
-> need to confirm with compression test

2. lazy valve (i.e. having trouble returning completely to seat)
-> no experience with this - but cant understand how the cold start scenario fits with this (noise - silent - then noise; see above)
-> this would require head off to check I guess :-/

3. loose/spongy tappets
-> I don't believe in this theory anymore.

BTW:
Went for Danish MOT today - my CO was now ok (failed last time - I believe its because I replaced injector on cylinder 1).
However the car failed on airbag lamp on :-(
(not allowed in DK apparently)

Cheers,
M

Last edited by mli; 02/05/2018 17:05.

SprintBlue 20vt '97
Prev.:Coupe16v'94,Alfa156/33,MareaSW,2xPunto,2xUno
Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: karl_20VT] #1635333
07/09/2019 14:47
07/09/2019 14:47
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Posts: 72
Denmark
mli Offline
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Hi All

Continuing an old story...

Im trying to get ready to disassemble the engine...
But maybe someone could give last advice?

Short recap: first i had engine full stop after overheating (bad temp switch?) - which gave blown head gasket (head bent).
Head replaced (used) and new gasket.
Running ok w good power but the issue is a clacking noise at half engine rpm. Not present when warm above 1500rpm.
Noise gets vague if cyl 3 ign coil disconnected.
Seems to come mostly from topend center (around #3).
All 20 tappets disassembled cleaned and oiled. All hard.
Oil pressure 1.9-2.0bar hot idle acc to dash gauge.

Compression test:
#1: 11.5/11.6
#2: 11.4/11.6
#3: 11.2/11.5
#4: 11.0/11.3
#5: 11.5/11.9
Pretty decent and low variance?

Should I go for new crank bearings?
Or piston slap? (Which means all out I guess?)

Cheers
M


SprintBlue 20vt '97
Prev.:Coupe16v'94,Alfa156/33,MareaSW,2xPunto,2xUno
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