Is anyone else starting to get tempted by the 2p per mile virtuous green transport?

A few neighbours have plug in hybrids (approx 25mile range) and there's a full electric Zoe and a leaf with ranges of up to 120 miles. New versions have better range.. And fast charge of only 30 mins.

Tempting. Certainly for commuting.

If the mile range is ok for you, and the charging time is manageable, and you don't mind that (apart from some examples like a Tesla Model S/Model 3) most electric cars are as aesthetically pleasing as a microwave, then I really see no problem with getting an electric car.

The problem with electric cars are your paying
Say £10,000 odd over the odds of a normal petrol car
Of same sort of size so will take a lot of years to recoup that outlay
Plus Like with all battery’s they will eventually not charge 100%
The Zoe says after 8 years it will be down to 66% battery range so down to about 80 miles instead of 120
And that’s if they figures actually pan out

Another report (German) based on German electricity production mix, calculated that the lifetime CO2 cost of an electric vehicle needed 220k km to break even and their projected life was a maximum of 180k km. So a pain to live with and not actually good for the environment. Moving the fossil fuel CO2 generation from cars to power stations isn't the answer. There has to be a real reduction for it to be successful.

All good points there. Cost is an issue, but they will get cheaper as they become more mainstream.

I think things are moving in the right direction regarding energy generation though. This year, the UK had its first period where more than half the power generated was from renewables. Coal is also being phased out quickly.

The other (and probably bigger issue) is the effect of traffic on local air quality. So a shift to zero (local) emissions is a good step forward.

Ps on looks. I agree they haven't exactly gone to town on jaw dropping design. But the new Leaf looks OK.

Pps. It's academic anyway cos I ain't got the cash.

Funnily enough I was chatting to a colleague about electric cars the other day, cheapest one was about £6k, but doors were an optional extra at £543 (yes really), range was ridiculous and you had to pay a monthly fee for the lease on the batteries. Once you got to a decent car they were just silly money £30k for an electric Corsa. Batteries they reckon will last 10 to 15 years, and most have an 8 year warranty so apparently no need to worry about their longevity! In 2016 a 40Kwh battery pack cost £10K !!!! An awful lot of people I know run cars older than 8 years (mines 10, the wife's is 12), how many people running cars that old could afford to replace the battery pack.

They say batteries will get cheaper, I'm not so sure, demand for lithium is increasing, and its pretty hard to come by, so surely prices will go up as demands sore https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/availability_of_lithium

A friend told me recently he was at a motorway service station parked opposite the Tesla charging stations, there was a constant queue of people waiting to charge there cars, some quite annoyed at the lengthy wait.

I think perhaps if you have money to spare and don't need to travel far, then they are good, but not for long trips or if you plan to keep it long term.

I would absolutely love an EV!!

However, I enjoy driving...
-I either want to drive something very refined & pleasant inside, or something with character.
The only EVs that have either of these are unaffordable. Not many have both.

I did just sit inside a Hyundai kona, just to see(!), but I hated it ( I have driven mainly mercs for last 15 yrs ).

To do a good ev retrofit on a budget costs £10-30k atm, so it tends to be only enthusiasts that go that route.

A US company recently started marketing a electric 'drop in' replacement for a V8 in a neat unit (all bar batteries) for $60k

Yes, it does move the pollution upstream to the power station, but this is more efficient. Plus, I just love the convenience of not having to go to the petrol station!
General running costs are much less too. For example, regenerative braking means that traditional brakes are used less & need less frequent replacing.
I do believe battery prices will come down more- they already have- and that retrofits will become more commonplace & easier

The main thing that a good EV lacks is the auditory feedback!

Yep, there are definitely issues but I think in as little as 5 years we'll see a step change. Manufacturers are really starting to shift to hybrid or EV already.

I think the lack of charging stations is just temporary while the infrastructure catches up with demand.

As with any major shift, there could be big problems with demand vs supply (e.g. Lithium) and we'll probably see major players like China taking the lead. Although they are heavily reliant on coal for power, they are also investing massively in renewables.

As for cost, this will almost certainly come down. Think of solar panels which cost a fraction of they did 20 years ago.

But it does concern me that it isn't fixing the overall problem of finite resources. We all still expect to have our own cars and as developing countries want the same, pressures increase and you get knock on effects like deforestation and increased carbon emissions.

Right. I'm off to buy an electric scooter.

On topic but on a slight tangent...

Radio control 'toy' cars have come such a long way since i was a boy!
Even just 10 yrs ago, it had to be nitro for a decent fast car, but now electric rc cars are faster with great run times & none of the mess & associated hassle & constant tuning!


Btw, I read recently that there are already more ev charging points in England than petrol stations.....

In my opinion the big issue that everybody has missed is that the government cannot just lose the excise and VAT tax revenue on petrol and diesel; they will have to try and tax electricity going into vehicles, but how to do this without sticking up the domestic electricity tariff and applying VAT, a certain vote loser? You can make charging away from home (roadside) as expensive as you want, but how to claw back the cash from home charging, now that is a technological problem without a fix that I can see. I may be missing something, but go figure....

Smart meters

"but then we all knew that"

LPG still the better option IMO unless you do a lot of mileage which would be a problem anyway with the current electric car ranges. I do roughly 10k a year and spend less on LPG in a month than the cost of an electric car battery lease!

I was thinking about LPG some years ago when I had the chance to buy a very nice V8 Range Rover but my nearest LPG garage was over 20 miles away and it would mean a special trip for a gas top up. Nowhere near economical.

Yeah, that can be a problem. I visited a station with an LPG sign up, couldn't see the pump and when I asked the attendant he said, "We don't sell it anymore because no-one buys it."

I do have to go a little out of my way sometimes but it still feels worth it once I've filled up and paid half as much for it. Always top up if there's LPG on my way somewhere.

But 20 miles would make it impractical. I've got at least 3 vendors within 20 miles.

A pal of mine had a bit of kit that he could transfer bottled LPG into his tank on his car. I think it involved having the bottle suspended up in the air and a pair of valves and pipe etc linked between bottle and tank. It worked well for him and he had bulk delivery of the bottles.

I think that transferring bottled gas into the vehicle would also require the bottle to be inverted so that liquid gas was transferred. The outlet on "normal" bottles draws gas from the top whereas the large bottles used to refill your BBQ bottle draws liquid gas from the bottom of the cylinder.

A late mate of mine used to transfer (refill) from larger bottles to smaller ones for camping etc and would always invert them for this reason. .

At 60 deg F the pressure in an LPG cylinder is over 90psi, any hoses and fittings have to handle significant pressures.

They're coming thick and fast, within 10 years ICE commuter vehicles will be the minority of new sales.

https://thedriven.io/

I have had a Tesla model s for over 18 months..so had plenty of time to get used to it....main reason I bought it ? (apart from being green, but that wasn't the main reason).
the governments tax breaks ,I 'm very fortunate , I run my own company ,so its totally tax deductible ...so purely money. ( Scottish Gov also give you a £30k interest free 6 year loan-to help pay for the bloody thing as well )
would I have bought it if the tax breaks where not available ...No !!


its a great car, very very rapid ,totally flat torque curve, instant response , silent, great on the motorway ,supremely comfortable , fantastic tech , I can go on and on
charging in Scotland is free and mine came with Free supercharging ,so no costs ( I was over £300 per month on diesel before) and also have a Gov. charging station 200 yards from my work base.

so plenty of pluses .

BUT

It is a pain to have to think about charging especially on any journey over say 150-200 mls ,so you have to plan stops etc
you get no where near the range they say you should , mines is quoted as having a range at 230 miles ...most I get ever ---170 !! BUT on a warm dry sunny day.

In the winter with temps below 5-6 deg ? take at least 35% off that !! and if its short journeys ,well, it takes approx 10-12 mls to fully warm the batteries and motors up , so you use double the range for that distance. and they all tell you not to fully charge
them all the time, up to 90% charge only as recommended by all the ev makers , or you lose battery capacity !!

when mines was brand new when charged fully it showed 232 miles ,now after 18 months thats 225 -227 so lost about 5 miles , it seems too have stabilised around that ,but to get the last 15-20 miles of charge in takes around 30-40 mins longer ,so not worth waiting

So unless there is massive improvements in batteries / charging times etc , It would never be my only car in the household ,unless there is a MASSIVE programme in charging infrastructure ,which cannot appear overnight.

I'm guessing it's not the final answer ,hydrogen cell , or surely some sort of eco friendly bio fuel must be on the horizon ?

anyway only my opinion of owning a EV

QQ is the tax break only on new cars?

Yes only on new cars

Also I don't know about in England ,but in Scotland you can claim back 19% of the cars value from your bottom line corporation tax bill ,so I got over £14000 of my tax bill the first year ,and every other cost is tax deductible as well ..even the monthly payments.
I think its classed as equipment rather than a car ,or something like that , so every cost is off the bottom line ./

the deal was soo good , after my accountant and I checked it all out , both him and his business partner bought one each.

I had intended to buy a Porsche Macan, but I really wanted a 911, but no use for work, and huge tax implications as well
So with the money I am saving , I went out and ' personally bought' a older 911 (997.2 Carrera 4s Cab with only 19,000 mls ) and loving it to bits

happy bunny

Might have to reach out to my accountant then

I have a friend who leased a I3 BMW and I have to say I was very impressed with it, out of the gate and around town it was very good, also has the range extender engine in the back which takes the range anxiety away and in truth for most of the trips I do the range would be absolutely fine.
The however is the cost, at the moment it makes no sense to do anything other than lease because the unknown at this stage is how the battery pack tech is going to degrade and how long its going to keep a significant proportion of its capacity. I don't think there is a very good market for second hand EV's and finding anyone to work on one thats not main dealer network is tough, even when its not a electrical issue your still poking around near HV which requires training.

Would I lease one for about the same price that i can lease a nice 220d? probably not but its going to be the earlier adopters that get hit so others can reap the rewards.

I also sit here with my 330d that is worthless and boxter which is also worthless and thing they owe me nothing, why would i lease

I don't see the financial sense in personal lease or PCP.

Will an 8 year old EV , when you come to upgrade, have an extremely low/zero value on the 2nd hand market - unless you pay the £8k-£10k cost for a new battery bank first? (assuming the battery physical shape is still in production for maintaining an 8 year old vehicle) ??.
I would assume even dealers would be offering near scrap px values for any electric trade-ins. ??

Lots of unknowns.................lots to get stung by................

just food for thought .....
lets some people drive new cars they couldn't afford to actually buy ( if you buy when you see a good deal/special offer which you get a lot when a car is just release ,brand new RR Velar for only £379 ),
and change them fairly frequently without the hassle
of having too haggle over trade in values
our sons car is leased but not thro the business, last car was a Audi S5 £379 per month
current car Audi S4 £417 per month both 2 year deals , just ordered a Audi Q5 s line sport for only £369 per month.
My wifes TT was only £199 per month for the first 2 years,she liked it so we ended up buying it and it actually worked
out £5k cheaper than buying it from new ...how the hell that works for Audi I don't know

yep totally agree, I wouldn't have bought one if it wasn't for the tax advantages negating your valid points

I wouldn't have used my own money to buy one, but with all the uncertainty in the car market, who knows with
future value with any new petrol or diesel bought now, and usage around any towns

Regardless of what I think about local and/or overall eco-benefits of going electric, I can't get my head around the "infrastructure" part of the whole EV mobility shift.

A normal 2/3 bedroom flat (in Croatia) has 5-8kW of installed/connection power. To recharge a 40kWh EV overnight (eg. 10pm - 6am) it would use almost all of the "available" power, omitting the facts that charging isn't linear (starts strong, lowers the power as it nears the full capacity) and chargers (Ac/Dc conversion) isn't 100% efficient.

If half the motorist switched to EV in the next 5 years, it would mean the electrical grid in residential areas should be made at least 2x more powerfull, or am I missing something?

Nope, you're not: the average energy used in IC engines in the UK is approximately equal to the total electrical energy generated. It will need both generation and distribution infrastructure doubling.

The generation of solar and/or wind energy local to the home might help those out of major urban centres but it's hard to see how it works down most of London's streets...

Neil

For those that remember me, I'm back for a quick update. Fiat Coupe replaced by Vauxhall Corsa 1.3 turbo diesel (hmm), then a sensible Mercedes A-Class C180 CVT (MPV style) for family duties. That one was interesting, particularly with cruise control, watching the gearbox move up and down the range to enable it to tackle steep hills (up and down) and still maintain speed.

And now? Renault Zoe R90 4.0. Just got it a couple of weeks ago - 2017 model. Here's to a future of range worry and charging at home.

And yes, I still really, really, really miss the Coupe.

Blimey Jim - this is getting spooky. you, me, stan and samsite have all popped up!

good to hear from you. All doing okay?

Odd how all of you have charging in common

Indeed. Yes, thanks. BrumAlison says "Hi!". How are you two doing?
Lockdown was tough, and her health wasn't great going in to it. But we're still alive and sane.

Electric here as well.....

I like the Zoe. There is one on my road and I love the Sci-fi sound it makes when it goes past.

Great to hear from you, Jim. And all the other alumni. My dad is on his second EV (Golf, following on from Up!) and is totally smitten.
As of a couple of weeks, I'm now working for those awfully nice Electric Highway people, so if anyone has any questions I'll do my best to find out ...

You can change the sound. Not yet checked how many options there are, and what they sound like.

Morning all

Was watching a show the other day which featured a company in mid Wales who convert classic cars to electric. They were doing a Land rover Defender but they tackle all sorts.

Interestingly they use Tesla kit for the conversion, so some pretty quick results.

Electric Coupe anyone? I know we'd miss the 5 pot sound, but what's the Italian for "insane mode."?
I guess the Turbo chassis would be the best base for the full fat Tesla power, but I'm sure the NA's could have a good balance between power and range.

https://www.electricclassiccars.co.uk/

I have no affiliation with them, but here's thier website for interest.

I'd wondered about that too, there's a place in the US that have converted a classic Fiat 124 Spider but a bit pricey at $35k

Yeah I suspect it would be expensive..... That 124 does look great mind.

I'd love to do an X1/9, it would be a perfect platform for it.

I'd do a Citroën DS. Can't think of a better car for converting to electric. I'd just waft around slowly all summer, window down, arm out, listening to 30s jazz.

Here in Norway, over 60% of new cars sold were electric as per october. But they want no conversions, and I think even changing to newer chemistry/batteries in existing electric cars are out of the question

I've got a proper Mini and saw the electric conversion kit someone announced this week. In many ways it would make sense (apart from a £10k cost!!) as my MIni isn't likely to do long journeys, but the A-Series is part of what makes a Mini. The place that rebuild the body of mine are currently building a Mini Sprint with electric conversion so I'll see what it is like, could be tempted but then again I'm not sure if I'll keep this Mini long term - can't afford to sell at the moment though as the repairs were more than I'd hoped, wonder if an electric conversion would make it worth enough to recoup costs?

Just looked at stats and year to date in UK circa 76% of all new vehicles sold are petrol or diesel (2:1). Way to go for the EV (r)evolution..........though sales of BEVs have increased by 150%

1.25m total car sales this year to 1.86m last year down 33%.

Looks the goods, but the seats are disgusting.

https://youtu.be/bwuIFLTQC0U

Fair play. If that was mass produced and was sensible money.... I think it would sell.

Seats are 'interesting' but I'm sure I could live with it if they were to offer me a freebie.



Maybe this is the future... Classic styling with cleaner emissions.

Hydrogen seems to still be on the table too. So perhaps we'll have a mix of options. Electric for commuting, hydrogen for mass transit and long journeys.

Thread resurrection ahoy!

We're now settling in to our post-self-employment-wage-slave-shift-work life.

MrsC has a 70-mile round trip commute (c15k/year), about 90% on the M5 and the 2008 Mini Clubman Cooper S is doing OK, especially now we've ditched the (frankly frightening) run flat tyres.

However, a number of factors are leading us to consider a lease on an EV:

- I work for a green energy company so can get very reasonable prices on electricity, with contracts specifically designed for EV owners and a discount on a Rolec charger.
- we're about to move to a house with solar panels
- there are free charging points at MrsC's work
- we reckon the overall cost of running the Mini is higher or no lower than leasing a brand new EV
- the Mini isn't getting any younger and will need replacing fairly soon before the mileage becomes too stellar

The main problem is the massively underwhelming EVs available for our £400/month budget.

What I'm struggling to find is real world data about EV servicing/insurance/consumables costs.

Jim.,

I've had a Tesla model S 75 since June 2018 ,just going thro the motions of selling it just now (for a a Guilia or Stelvio QF )

reasons are I think in the next few years there will be big changes in either electric or even hydrogen cars (which I think makes far more sense than electric) , the range is not great even tho it states 235 mls per charge thats driven at snails pace with nothing on in the car and a warm sunny day (also car now shows full at 224 mls!!and they recommend you only charge to 90% or you hurt the batteries ) --not real world Britain or even worse Scotland !! cold wet weather day range max is about 160 so at £10 for. full charge if charged at home thats £1 per 16 miles sounds ok ,but not when you calculate in the £75k cost of the car and getting offered £38k -Max £40k at less than 3years old with 31k mls on it , bought through the business so loads of tax advantages to work in too ,but if it wasn't ,I'd be very unhappy.
my friend has a Taycan with very similar figures ,again bought thro business to access tax gains ,but thats the only way it works financially

and both agree as a seocnd car a small EV makes sense ,but as your main driver ,not yet ..too many hassles ,and too much planning to make any decent journey a pleasure ,also you can't get up in the morning and say lets go here ..if the EV isn't charged and you don't know the relevant charging points along the way.

They are good to drive ,the tech on the Tesla is fun and app brilliant ,instant acceleration from standstill and zero running costs ,apart from charging and tyres ,Tesla don't even want to see the car back until the brake fluid needs changed or a fault but most faults are covered by their fleet of vans that come to you

so yes if getting one now I would only lease one ..can you not get the basic model3 for around £400 per month now ?

fee charging points are great ,for most day to day driving I have one near my business so thats ideal ,but even tho its 20mls to get back home in the winter it takes 30-32 miles of charge for the journey ,so in real world with a car that Staes 235 mls to a charge ,after I've charged to the 'recommended 90%' and gone home i'm down to 160 mls range which in the real winter world is 120 mls ...for me simply not good enough ,and before the batteries heat up the car will consume 30% more battery power per mile than when hot

i'm sure in the future all these issues will be solved or improved but for me just now ...back for a last blast in petrol power

just my thought for what they are worth

apologies for the above meant to press edit and obviously pressed quote and it won't let me delete

Thanks for the detailed reply, Paul. I agree with much of what you say - especially about the potential for game-changing new tech in the not-too distant future.
Our plan is to go for a 2-year lease, with no interest in buying it at the end, giving us a bit of flexibility in the medium term.
MrsC's commute is 35 miles each way with a charger at each end. The car will be a tool for commuting but just a newer, more efficient vehicle than the Mini for the same (or maybe slightly less) money. Another factor is that MrsC would like something with a higher driving position than the Mini for navigating dark, spray-soaked motorways.
Even in non-Covid-afflicted times, we don't travel much, so I don't think range anxiety will play a role very often.

I'm currently feeling slightly dirty as I have been leering at deals for Kia e-Niros.

No prob `Jim

Kia e Niro is highly regarded
good luck

Kia are much better since the tie up with Hyundai.

The Sportage has been well regarded for a long time too.

I think an e-car as a second car is ideal, since much of people's mileage is just short trips and commuting.

I must say I really like the look of the Corsa E.

Got good reviews too.

I can see us all going down the route pretty soon. Young people have less reason to stick to petrol and a strong relationship with IT.

I've read that very few of us travel long distances on a regular basis, so fear of running out of power is just something for us to get our heads around.

Cost saving per mile doesn't make sense to me yet, as electric car purchase is still quite expensive.
I would certainly look at the upcoming Dacia electric car.

Dacia then makes me reflect on new cars generally. They all seem to be crammed with a lot of IT. Is it all really necessary, I'm not so sure. This all adds to cost.

Pursuing the Kia e-Niro option for the time being, as MrsC was much more positive about it than I was expecting! She also wants to look at other cars, including the ID-3, which is fair enough.

My main doubt is that we can make the maths work without going for a longer lease than I want or putting down more of an initial payment that the sale of the Mini will raise.
One question I can't seem to find an answer to is this:

On a PCH (personal contract hire offering no option to buy at the end), will I need to find another £xK when it expires in order to get into another lease car or will my initial payment 'roll over' seamlessly and allow me to continue on similar payments?

While I'm here, does anyone have any recommendations for reputable but ludicrously cheap lease companies?

Apologies to the OP for the shameless thread hijack, but it is still sort on on topic...!

I have no idea where the break even point over extra cost for electric vs lower cost per mile is, but given the best use of these vehicles seems to be for short distance travel, I strongly suspect the answer is 'never'.

That said, although I'm not looking yet I suspect we will end up with a small electric here just for local commuting. The coupe can be collected for a few months when the sun shines.

think it will change ,hence the reason for selling just now ,it was good ,but has too many limitations for me just now .................and i've just today traded it for a Stelvio Quadrafoglio ......so has an upside

The Marmite styling of the Kia Soul EV is now at the head of the queue - identical running gear to the e-Niro, but slightly cheaper. Still not dream car territory, but that's not the name of this particular game!
Our spreadsheet indicates that the total monthly running cost of our two alternatives is almost the same at around £450 (not including tyres, screenwash, etc that applies equally to both).
We balanced putting in the £2.5k down payment against the £100 per month book depreciation of the Mini.
Our lease cost was based on 36 months and a rather crippling 20k miles per year (2 services for the Kia). Fuel vs charging was £250 - £65/month

So, our current (ho ho) thinking is that we'll probably go for the Kia simply for the peace of mind. Not till we've moved house though, in a couple of months...

It turns out that once you're on the leasing treadmill, you can take out another car at the end of your 36 months without having to find the extra X months up front, which would have killed this stone dead for us.