Specialists - How good is their work...

I bought my Coupe with a Helix Organic clutch fitted last year and have the receipt with work done by one of the specialists on the forum. Last week my clutch started playing up, so I stopped driving it and took it to Barbz at Torque Italia to strip it apart and fit one of his new TI uprated clutch kits.

First of all, the gearbox was only held in place with 3 bolts instead of 6, and upon taking the clutch apart, it was found that everything was loose inside and as a result, the release bearing had failed.

Granted, the clutch is still ok, but how is it that a 'specialist' has done such a poor job in the first place?

I just want to thank Barbz for doing an amazing job on my car as usual. I've never been disappointed with any of his work and his service is first class.

Who was the specialist?

Have you spoken to/confronted the specialist?

I'm not here to give anyone a bad reputation. Something like this could have an impact on their business. I just want to make people aware that not everyone they regard as 'coupe gods' are perfect.

Catch 22 then. You won't say who the specialist is but then want to make everyone aware that the specialist they themselves use might not be all they're cracked up to be?

Given that position I kinda don't see the point in the post.

Cheers, Hedge

Agree with hedge. Either name and shame or whats the point. Personally I would take it up with the specialist and not bother posting. You might find it only had three bolts in the first place. Its not strictly their job to do someting about that

Forgive me if I'm a bit frustrated with having to fork out on a new clutch due to the incompetance of one of our faithful specialists.

I'm sure this is not the first time this sort of thing has happened, so people can work it out for themselves.

As a warning to others to keep their wits about them.

I have had both amazing service and some not to the standard you expect from a "Specialist"

Not sure if there's a Forum "rule" on this but imo unless the OP has spoken to the "specialist" to get their view, I don't think it would be fair to name them until that conversation had taken place.

Firstly biggenz is entitled to vent his frustration as anyone would. Secondly its extreamly mature that you have seen it from the point that it is someones business and could cause a lot of damage. At the end of the day everyone is human and im sure everyone makes mistakes now and again. Your best bet in a situation like this is to confont the person and talk it through and im sure you will both work something out

Thing is, as soon as anyone says a bad word against a specialist on here, everyone jumps in to defend them, and in the vast majority of cases the original poster then becomes the "bad guy"

It's a shame because everyone makes mistakes, but because of the above you only ever hear the good stories, you occasionally hear they made a mistake and rectified it promptly, but you'll never hear that they cocked it up completely, it seems any form of negative feedback is frowned upon here.

Out of interest, to become a FCCUK Trader, do you have to pay the club a fee? Purely out of interest I'm not a conspiracy theorist.

Have a read in the premium adverts area. Any company can purchase a subforum. It by no means makes you a Trader or a Specialist. The club doesnt endorse or approve companies in that respect.

All issues between users and companies should be resolved outside of the forum rather than turning into a slagging match on here. Issues are resolved far quicker that way

Have to disagree; I think it's more about giving the trader an opportunity to give their side and possibly a chance to rectify things.

At the end of the day, we're talking about someone's livelihood and if a wrong accusation is made that could impact on reputations.

Gotta take the good with the bad. However, there does seem to be a number of problems reported on the forum over the past year or so!

Some have disappeared rapidly, some got locked, some get lost in time and space. It takes about a day or so for a un-replied to thread to get to the never to be seen again - page 3

It's our club, without the clients/members, the club would be left with moderators patrolling nothing but themselves (shudder at the thought)

If there is a problem we need to know. If an established member has an issue then it should be aired IMO. If the response from the specialist appears on the thread, then kudos to them. It does not take long to figure out the real story.

If you trade, you'd better do a good job. It's not too much to ask is it?

Yes that's fair enough, I agree entirely about hearing the traders side of the story, but my point was more towards what happens when they have ballsed it up completely, and no amicable agreement has been made between the parties involved. To me, and maybe it's just my interpretation, but I have always found the forum to favour the side of the specialists, even if, they were in the wrong.

Spot on Phil.

Why should a conversation take place in public?

It should be resolved outside of the forum. If someone had a complain about your business would you want to find out about it in the public eye or would you not appriciate they came to you first? Once that stage has happend then by all means give your feedback.

Its no ones business what has gone on until the issue has been resolved. Then if the personal feels necessary they can give their feedback.

We have seen it many times small issues turn into witch hunts, that is not what this forum is about.

Excellent post patch234.

A specialists work should be spot on, but so should any 'normal' garage.

The difference with a specialist, is that they know the more common faults on a car and know the easier/quicker ways of sorting things, compared to a 'normal' garage.

Mistakes still happen whether they are specialists or not and being specialists doesn't mean their work is perfect, it just means that they usually go that little bit further to get the car sorted quicker.

Specialist means they know the car, it doesn't mean the job will be perfect each time. It should be, yes, but not always.

Although, in this case, then yes, a specialist should have spotted there were some bolts missing and put some back in as general practice really.

That's what I meant to say.

I've just had a pm from another member who had very similar problems with the same specialist. This does not seem like an isolated incident.

One thing that is hard to avoid is human error, and any specialist worth their salts should have realised that there were three bolts left over, as it is goo practice to keep together items removed so that the head-count tallies after putting them back on, even if some are binned and replaced.

I got burned bad too, cost me £1400+ to get my engine fixed after the cambelt went as it wasn't changed when it should have. It was invoiced and even had my logbook stamped for it. That money was for bodywork repairs that never happened, and even now I'm driving around in a shabby looking Coupe. It's never been the same since too.

More recently work JBT did left me delighted with his work, especially at the enthusiasm, communication and diligence he showed (not to mention the courtesy yellow Cinqy).

So it's about trust, and that takes time. I have learned to always check the work done, as the consequences can be too drastic not to, on the last job I had done to replace the trailing arm bearing a handbrake cable wasn't clipped in the bracket and was drooping by the petrol tank, minor I know, but it happens though.

I think that on the whole that members should not be wholly dissuaded from posting their bad garage experiences, as this aids other members. Though I understand the predicament that this may put the admin though, as mediators.

Big up to Barbz in this case

Biggens with your permission would it not be better to lock this thread until you have had these conversations with the person in question. Once done, if you are not satisfied or feel you wish to give your feedback on the situation then you can do so either here (ask me to unlock it), or more appropriatly post in their alocated subforum?

I cannot see this thread going anywhere at present however it will stay unlocked unless you say otherwise or it gets out of hand/off topic

Have you had a conversation with this specialist yet?

And it didnt take alot to figure out who the 'specialist' was either.

The place is a joke.

Just from another side of the fense...

This is a fiat coupe community, we are lucky to have companies that wish to invest their time in this place. They offer members discounts, they give help and advice for free and of course they get business from us.

Now there are many companies on here... im sure at least one person has had a bad experience with each and every one.

If they then decided to not give the person a chance to recify the issue and just post on here the companies will soon dissapear... Why would you want to help out a community that is here to catch you when you make a mistake? I appriciate its a two way process, they get business and we get benefits. However imagine a forum where there is no specialists, no discounts, no place you can call up and always get a part...

... that would be a very sad day and see this place die a quick death. You may think the admins take sides, thats not the case. We are looking at the bigger picture and try to mediate to ensure that both parties are kept happy.

The disclaimers in the Premium adverts section clearly state that issues should be resolved outside of the forum and the club are not held responsible for the actions of those companies in question.

This is just a thought... and my opinion only

This is the trouble isn't it, three missing bolts from a gearbox is not a mistake Mario, it's negligence.

No-one is stating that the club is responsible, no-one is disagreeing with the clubs stance, it's the correct one.

I agree that members should speak to the specialist first when not happy, but it was too late in this instance. He had a problem, obviously was not happy with the quality of job at the previous specialist so went to another to find out what the issue was!

Too late to contact the original specialist as the car was being fixed b someone else. Now what? Drag Barbz into it all? Don't think so!

He is right to post this up in the manner he did - All IMO of course

I never said he wasnt correct. As per my initial post he has gone about it in the proper and mature manner.

There is no harm in Bigenz's rant, we all get annoyed frustrated and need to vent from time to time.

Whatever work is done on a car it should be up to standard. Sure sometimes things dont work out but these should be exceptions.

Forums are very powerful and invariably help solve issues. Without forums and the possibility of 'adverse publicity' some traders would rather shrug their responsibilities.

For some that use the online environment heavily as their marketing arena upsetting people is very risky.

Naming and shaming should not be the first form of recourse not least because it is unfair without a trader being afforded the opportunity to remedy damage. Secondly the forum and poster may face themselves with potential hefty legal action regarding defamation / libel (see the Demon Internet and Motley Fool cases if youre interested).

I would not want anyone to shut me up if i wanted to vent. I would also expect any posters to be responsible and discuss any concerns with the trader before naming and shaming.

I hope you are happy with Barbz's work mate, and i hope you can resolve any outstanding issues with the other person amicably

Good post Rudi

I think with any problem in life it's all about whether you actually want to resolve it. Clearly in this scenario you are happy that Barbz has fixed it.

Now as mentioned you either ask for some compensation or you decide to warn others.

If it was me I'd be looking for compensation as someones paid for that work to be done correctly and cause it hasn't it's caused you financial loss.

Suppose it depends on who the specialist is.

Ross

Name and shame - after all you're only giving a honest account of your experience with that specialist. It's then down to us individually to decide whether we would take our cars and our hard earned money to them.

How many specialists get raving reviews when they've done a fantastic job? It should be the other way too.

I'd be livid and want a full refund.

Btw Barbz well done as usual, cambelt change soon so I'll give a tinkle mate

Issues do happen,if you don't tell them how can they make and mends or even improve on there standard of work..

A good service is just not how the initial work is performed but also how any incidents are resolved. The specialist may be deeply concerned with the issue and offer assistance,compensation or any mixture of the two. I would like to think they would.

I would suggest a chat with them ,if this thread is a warning to others,its kinda pointless without a name.

I can understand the vent mind.

There has too be a point to this thread...be suspicious of everyone?Double check work? or a plug for barbz?...

eitherway i glad you got sorted

There in lies the problem, when people vent their anger at companies on the forum, the threads get locked, and the matter is swept away under the carpet.

Its largely pointless to even try.

Maybe because companies pay to advertise on the forum, the moderators might feel obliged to keep them on side...

Mario is right though, it is good that we have discounts, group buys, and specialist contacts on this forum, but when we are paying our hard earned cash to people who claim to be the best in the business, its only fair to expect the best sevice and best quality in the business.

As patch says, leaving bolts out of the clutch housing is nothing short of negligence, something you might expect from a 'trainee', not a company that will tell you they are the countries number one... blah blah blah

Thats just the issue here AlexJames it wasnt Biggenz experience directly with that mechanic it was the previous owner of his car. Its hardly fair on that mechanic to not be approached and questioned first.

Also can you prove that the previous owner didnt touch the car or have it taken somewhere after? There are so many variables it would not be fair to just start naming and shaming without a full story and concrete evidence.

on that note... night all

Thats never the case. Threads get locked when people arnt prepared to even speak/confront the person in question. What is the point in having a thread where two people are slagging eachother off infront of half of the forum? We NEVER lock a thread because someone has expressed their opinion.

People unfortunatly dont see what goes on behind the scene... when we approach the person and ask for key things like Evidence? or ask if they have told the person of what they have found the answers are always No or you should ban that person and take my side etc etc. . . There are always two sides to every story and thats something that many people on here dont see. We like to resolve things behind closed doors and because of that the wider community dont see what is going on and assumes its the club trying to hide things.



Couldnt care less if they pay or not. The money from the premium adverts section covers the cost of the increase in bandwidth the forum has been using in the past year. It makes no odds to the club if we have advertising or not. The section is there for the benefit of the community. It just means that there is more money in the pot to spend on our members than pump into paying web hosts...

Well, this is not my fight Mario, i just take things as i see them.

I'm not sure potentially killing another persons business is a good idea unless you have solid proof of the crime (so to speak)

That said I was looking for a 3rd party service on the site and would have found it a comfort to know which company is being spoken about in this thread. I suggest the full story with only facts are added to this thread by the accuser.

It may be beneficial to have a review thread for each company that advertise on the site. This way both positive and negative reviews are all listed together so members can make a fair and complete decision.

Oh we are back on this one again!

It often seems like the forum takes sides but I can assure you nothing is further from the truth. Generally complaints are allowed but yes the post is often locked soon after. Oddly this has more to with protecting the Forum Member, rather than the trader.

Nobody on the forum really knows what has happened with regard each incident other than those directly involved. Surely most customers would wish to see the issue they have encountered resolved. If an issue is not able to be resolved face to face then people may consider they need to take legal action. I hope you all understand that ALL comments that the complainant and others make on the forum could possibly be used to undermine such cases.

The Forum, by allowing detrimental comment, could also potentially be accused of allowing material to be published that caused a trader to suffer a loss of business.

I consider one of the real problems on this forum is people constantly posting saying how great some of the traders are. Most of the time it’s nothing exceptional people post about, just the fact that the trader they have used did the job they were paid to do! So why post? Do people post because they hope that next time they will get more favourable rates?

Everyone should go into a transaction with their eyes wide open and that includes dealing with traders on this forum. Don’t fall for the forum hype, we are all different and we all have different expectations. I have had work done on my car at forum traders and also at specialists who don’t frequent here. I have had good service and bad service from both!

So at the end of the day you've got a warning from an owner saying that the specialist you're using "might" not be all that he's cracked up to be. That's it, in essence.

I stand by what I said originally: I don't really see the point in airing such a comment. I can see why the OP would do it, just don't think it was particularly helpful advice that's all.

I wonder if everyone's going to start querying the guys they use all of a sudden. Strip things apart after work's been done? Get it checked by another specialist? Even they might be wrong.. Where does it all end?

Cheers, Hedge

Exactly what you should be doing.

Cool, understand that. But how?

Stand over them as they're working? Ask them if they've hand-on-heart done everything asked of them, properly? Get someone else to check it? Check it yourself?

This is my point: logistically speaking you're at a dead end. Who do/ can you trust?

Cheers,
Hedge

agreed - good post imo..... anyone who thinks the "specialists" are perfectionists is a fool, everyone of them and us makes mistakes at some time and no doubt from the outside this could be construed as "negligent". personally i've had brilliant service for the most part but i go there with my eyes open - and certainly with more chance of high satisfaction than taking it to anygarage.com.

as for the comment earlier concerning asking the specialist for compensation, i don't think that's right if you haven't given the original specialist the chance to rectify it initially provided it is PROVEN to be his fault - there are many on here who fiddle with their own cars and fair play to them - but who's to say that the previous owner of your car has done it properly and then the specialist gets the blame.

Biggenz Are you 100% certain the previous owner never took the box off after the specialist?

Yes I'm sure. Why would he have taken it off anyway if it was just fitted?

I've got tons of receipts with all the work done on the car, as the previous two owners always used a garage.

Inserting my opinion...

Stories like this pop up once in a couple of months. They're generally all the same except for the 'who did it' part. Nobody offers 100% perfection. Sometimes that is because things need to be fixed in alternative ways (eg. While fixing it something rusty breaks that will take a week to order but the owner needs the car tomorrow), sometimes it's because they were in a rush, sometimes it's human error and sometimes there are other reasons... and sometimes the story is not completely true.

The same goes for parts, replacement discs, suspension,... there will always be things that are perfect to some and bad to others.

Would these stories stop me from going anywhere? I doubt it. I'm sure we've all bought brand new expensive items that have gone wrong quite quickly, whether it was a car, a Parnafonics stereo set or a Bosch washing machine. We just go back, show the ticket and let the shop replace the item. Sometimes we bought something new, dropped it to the floor, and go back to the shop saying "it doesn't work".

I'm not saying these stories shouldn't be told. They serve a good purpose: making sure people don't trust EVERYONE with their eyes closed. With time, our (let's call them) Coupe Friendly Garages are getting even better, find new resources, get new parts made up, get good deals on pattern parts, learn about other stuff that go wrong on our age-old cars,... I know plenty of garages around here that will just say "a Fiat Coupe? Oh no sir, won't even go near it".

I'm happy there are so many CFG's on the Forum. I've experienced a few and they each have their own ways. Probably each have their own 'specialities' and each their own visions about how something can be made better.

The big message being: you will find perfection nowhere. But you can always go back, or decide to try someone else.

Now then... Off to drive over an hour one way to my personal CFG to get my brake set fitted and some other stuff done that I don't have the tools for. Who knows I won't have to go back tomorrow, but if so,... Happy either way.

Hi biggenz,

Not having a go at you, as i don't live in this country so i have no customer relationship with any coupe specialists, and i do feel sorry for you that you aren't the original customer with the specialist when the clutch was fitted, otherwise you have every right to confront him directly.

I notice you also post a Helix clutch for sale in coupe parts section. I think it would be fair if you do mention the release bearing issue in that post, as a potential buyer might not be able to link the 2 posts together. If they are not the same clutch then my apology.

It's the same clutch, but I'm supplying a new release bearing as can be seen in the pics I've added.

Cool! Fair play.

I have enjoyed the discussion that this thread has started far more than the (imo) pointless threads where pub bragging peak bhp figures and appendage sizes are the main point of discussion.

Upset, peeved off, in need of a vent. All valid reasons, I would have done the same and I would not expect anyone to feel unable to just moan about something on a bad day





Spot on, BUT, negligence, vicarious liability, all difficult to prove in a court. Not least because there may have been different causes for this failure. I am not suggesting that is was or was not a garage's fault, but merely suggesting that proving it is requires more than just holding up a bunch of parts in a court. Also you'd probably find that a formal engineer's (no not a mate from the garage down the road) report would cost nearly as much as the cost of a new clutch

For me there are a few morals to this story.

a. you can only really be sure of someone's work if you do stand over them and watch them and actually know what they need to do. At which point you might as well have done the work yourself. In reality you either dont have the skills, time or inclination to do the work so you have to accept the inevitable. It is hard to be truly comforted and trusting someone's abilities if you know what is required, ignorance is bliss.

It follows that recommendations are often not worth the air they are not written on.

I have seen work from companies that specialise in race preparation. shoddy work. but people fit bits to their car because they know no better. not all of them are armed with the skills or tools to check the work of engine builders / specialists etc.

b. you get what you pay for. people want stuff cheap and they often get cheap. it stands to reason that good work takes time and money. for example, building an engine is 90% measuring and cleaning. why does an engine built properly cost so much.... time. why should you be weary when someone sells you an engine or head that has been allegedly been rebuild but is still cheap.... time (= quality).

all garages work to a price, and this invariably means corners are sometimes cut. of course this is not right but it is the result of supply and demand. simple economics. some garages work on the principle of differentiation (as opposed to cost for all you marketing gurus) and in this case people pay for a job to be done properly (one would hope).

c. and lastly... everyone makes mistakes. if a clear responsibility is owed to a customer for a job that has developed a fault then it is for the two parties to resolve. in the first instance at least.

I am an admin of a large car forum and our rules are that any disputes should be handled off the board first, before any names are mentioned. Then, and only then, if the company does not respond can a member post details of their experience. We insist that any allegations are factual with evidence to support discussions and the company is advised of the thread so that they are afforded the opportunity to impart their views and dispute any allegation.

This happens very very rarely, in fact I cant remember the last time - probably 3-4 years ago. What often results is that the full story evolves.

Busy internet forums are very powerful and should be used and managed with care. Mods have a difficult task in managing posts and members with often strong characters and straddle a fine line between being accused of being impartial, ineffective or of being over moderating hitlers.

Ultimately monkeys are exposed for who they really are and the good folk are identified. Unfortunately this sometimes takes years.....

.... coming soon to a forum post near you.... Rudi's rant

Biggenz has now requested that this thread can now be locked. It will only be reopend on his request.

Thanks,

Mario