Non-turbo coupes are "worthless"?

When I took my non-turbo 20v coupe to Solo Italia for its most recent service, the manager there said that non-turbo coupes are "not worth anything" and "the only coupes which will ever be worth anything are the turbo-plus and the LE". I was wondering if you agree with this statement? I love my non-turbo coupe and I hope to keep it for a very long time. But I also hoped that in 10 years or so it would be a rare and valuable classic car. I don't think a 6-speed turbo is really my style anyway, but is it true my standard non-turbo is "worthless"?

Not worthless just not worth much.
£500-£800 nowadays,depending on who's looking.


Abroad in Europe they fetch strong money still.
Here in disposable Britain nothing's worth much second hand.

He's wrong. Very wrong. Whilst the top/popular models may increase in value first, eventually the entire range will go up. Also there's the rarity value to consider. One day there will only be a handful of N//A models left so their value will increase anyway.

My only concern with the current disparity in values is the risk of someone buying an N/A for £7.50 and making it into a Turbo, just like people have done with Minis from the 1960s, making a Cooper into a Cooper S.

I do hope you were cheeky with the manager perhaps paying an amount commensurate with the alleged value of you car!!

Mmm.

Took my first coupe (20v VIS) to SOLO for cambelt when they where at the old place.

The mechanic was really good but said I'd paid too much for it.

True but how do you define value?

I'd just left my daughter at uni in Brighton and realised that nothing would be quite the same again.Not a happy bunny. Stuck in traffic and saw a steel grey bonnet on a forecourt. Went to have a look and saw a car that I knew was too good to be there. Had a look, etc, saw the the service book and mentioned cambelt (oops)so the guy went off on one in his best south eastern accent and said you had to take the engine out to change the cambelt which was more than the car was worth. I got a bit confused by this selling point but negotiated a 500 gbp discount for a belt change and bought the car there and then. I swear that car smiled at me.....

Its now very happy with a turbo sprinty and a red VT6 (thanks JBT)....well one thing leads to another.

Yes most people want the turbo version and in a depressed market the LE or Pus will get a higher price but so what?

If you enjoy your car and it makes you smile when you drive it then good for you.

Value is whatever you choose it to be

As much as I love my porto 20vt, you can't knock the 20v NA's for what they are.

As soon as I've done everything I planned to get done on my turbo I'll certainly be on the look out for a good one.

Still have memories of my old vis (first coop I owned) drove 200 mile to pick it up, on the way back I discovered the stereo was, shall we say completely goosed!! Windows down half an inch......problem solved

Simple, reliable, still fun and cheaper to run (if you can resist the sound) I'd have another in a heart beat!

Plan is to take the porto off the road october-ish and avoid as much winter driving as possible, can't think of a car (whithin reason) I'd prefer to fill the slot...

And I would be willing to spend 'good' money for the right car.

See picture below: eighteen years, from new.

The value differs depending whether you're buying or selling, and in either case is always subjective: by the book, because mine has been a cat C write-off in its time, mine has a value of effectively zero.

But you wouldn't get it out of my hands until you put a lot more money on the table...

My NA is 18yrs old still turns heads and sounds like no other car I've driven

Perhaps they aren't worth much to others but everytime I pull into a garage and fill up and catch all the passing glances it's worth a fortune to me

I use to like the 2nd generation Rx-7 non turbo because it didn't have the bonnet scoop and is was a little different to all the turbo ones around. I hated to see a non turbo wasted by converting it to a turbo. Why not just buy a turbo? Fiat 131R 2 doors are appreciating in value a lot recently. A lot hate to see them wasted by being converted into some sort of Group 4 Abarth replica too.

The lesser models of just about any car will never be worth as much money as the better models. If Fiat changed the Coupe body somehow, gave it a facelift etc or introduced a replacement model sort of like Mk1 and Mk2 Uno, the early ones would stand out better as the original shape and would maybe be better regarded but that didn't happen.

And that ladies and gentlemen, perfectly sums up what Coop ownership, or indeed even enthusiast car ownership, is all about.

The N/A's are still an amazing car, you don't get the outright performance but there is a lot of useable power, and the exhaust note doesn't get muffled by the turbo charger.
I think that Coupe's will be "discovered" soon, there have already been a few articles about them in the classic car magazines.
I owned a VIS, (K2OUP) and she was a cracker, part of me still wishes i had bought her back when HoveDan sold her.

Worthless? I think the sound is priceless. Don't care what there worth the noise and the head turning more than makes up for the low price

My NA stands head and shoulders above my plus in reliability expense and economy - it's a vis and practically indestructible.
The noise is better than my plus - and I always thought an NA coupe with about 180bhp would have been a perfect car for me.

I love em both
But if I had to choose one to live with daily it's the NA hands down.

The turbo models (and particularly the 20VT) are the ones which 'elevated' the car. The press went ga-ga over them, because the performance the blower added simply completed the package.

The turbo will always be more sought-after and valuable than the N/A, but calling the N/A 'worthless' is harsh. At the moment (in the UK at least) all Coupes are effectively worthless anyway - nobody is going to split hairs over a grand or less in price difference.

If prices ever increase, they will happen across the board, but the quantum for price increase among the turbo models (and perhaps particularly the LE and Plus) is probably greater I believe than the N/A ones.

I would personally never buy an N/A, but I do appreciate that they are more "pure" (mechanically simpler, with less packaging compromises).

One of those things, and I suspect very personal. I tried both the NA and the VT when I bought my 16; the performance difference was nothing like that between the 16NA and the 20VT and the turbo lag was something I didn't want to live with (I'd come from a turbo car which I didn't particularly like).

Since then I've owned a 20vt for a couple of years - and basically, found it better suited for long trips. For a drive in the country, I preferred - and still prefer - the 16NA. And of course I have the 20vt engine in the kit... go figure!

It's a shame they do suffer in the market place. I believe the na motor is far better suited to the coupé than the turbo. However it's the go the turbo has that the majority want. I think Joe has the right idea with his 2.4 na though.

Quite honestly who cares?

If you / we like them what does it matter if they are "Worthless"

It matters when insurance companies try to wriggle out of paying you a fair amount or when someone dinks your car in Tesco's car park and doesn't even apologise because they thinks its 'worthless' compared to the 59 plate Chevrolet they bought on 29% APR....

Why do houses go up in value and cars go down? They are both getting older with more and more money needed each year to keep them in good order!

If i could afford the time i would have every coupe model out there.

But i have to be realistic.

Shame really,as i would love a 16v.

I just thought that saying the NA coupes would "never be worth anything" was a strange comment for a coupe specialist to make! I felt as though he was looking down on me because I only paid £510 for my coupe! Or maybe he thinks a middle-aged woman should stick to Nissan micras? I would like to buy another one too. I like the Portos. And yes, it really is fun when you fill up and everyone is thinking "what is THAT?" and then you start it up and it sounds like a Ferrari! The other day a Ferrari parked next to me at the supermarket, but do you know what, I think I actually prefer my coupe!

What is a "vis"?

Variable
Intake
System

Basically just the later non turbo models, with a touch of added witchcraft.

Careful Annie, give the Forum an opening...

I'm on record as saying I don't think the Coupe will ever be a real collectors car. But then I look at the prices on some of the 70s garbage I can remember..We need the early 90s ten year olds to reach their 40s and hit their mid life crisis!

Out of the 3 coupes i've had, selling my 20v N/A is actually my biggest regret. It was the most trouble free car i've had and was a perfect daily driver!

@Roadking - ha ha ha!
I have seen so many Coupe for sale adverts where the seller says, "my wife can't drive it" or "bought this for my wife but she says it's too fast"! Who are these wimpy women who can't handle a coupe? "She doesn't like it" Paaaaah! Keep the coupe and sell the wife!

My mother loves mine, I just don't like her driving it as shes so used to automatics she has a tendency to forget to use the clutch.....

I love mine but then again I haven't actually driven a Turbo yet!

My (ex) missus now drives a CL63 (owned by her new partner). She certainly doesn't spare the horses. I'd never let her drive my Coupes though, as she wouldn't be able to see over the steering wheel - lack of seat height adjustment, and she is only 4' 11". Speed would not be a problem; I let her drive my car (1.8 Cavalier company job) back down the A1 from York, and I had to point out at one point she was doing 115mph. Excuse? I couldn't see the speedo

Ms RK drives faster than I usually do (her 1.1 Getz probably covers ground faster than my Coupe. But then she doesn't need her licence as much as I do..)

worthless! I don't think so.....you paid a good price for one of the most stylish and well rounded cars ever produced. That has to be an absolute bargain, so you've enjoyed the buyer side of 'worthless'.

The cars value whilst you own and drive it is irrelevant really, apart for insurance. Providing you enjoy the car does it matter what it is worth? .....and when you do come to sell, providing you get a fair price at the time, then it will have been a good investment.

As far as the na becoming a collectors car, yes it will, as the numbers decline through natural wastage. Value is set by demand, condition and rarity although desirability is usually higher in the top models, hence the higher pricing.

I love all coupes, I started with a 16v, moved to a vis and then to a 20VT....all had their merits, but I'm now getting my original 16v fit for the road as that's my favourite model.

By the time I've finished I will be spending three times more than the market value, but the driving pleasure will be worth every penny.

BY the way, my wife has suffered my 'hobby' over the years and has had to drive everything from Sunbeam Stillettos through various Porsce's, multiple Alfa's and Fiats and even the odd Aston and Merc.....but one of her favourite cars is the little 16v coupe which she says is one of the nicest cars she's ever driven......praise indeed from a Mini Cooper S owner.

I wish I could get a 16v for my son, but he is only 18 and the insurance would be huge. I saw a lovely yellow one the other day. I would like them all, to be honest, and I have never really been a car enthusiast before - what is it about these cars? I used to hate having to spend money on car maintenance, but spending money on a coupe is strangely satisfying.

Its a fair point to say these non turbos will never fetch any where near some of the more sought after models.

I'm a bit of a geek with pricing and even though its impossible to know the prices after all the ups and downs value of these cars (and the spares).

I would say that if they ever become collectable to a wider audience all the models will have a steady to strong price. Cars like these that are often overlooked can easily go either way.

As I say above the more desirable models will always fetch a much stronger price but if they ever do have a peak time the top notch ones can take a very long time to sell due to the variety and choice.

Even if you are looking right now you will check the condition, history, performance figures, aftermarket parts, originality, trinkets, mileage etc.

If you've modded your car and original parts are rare or over priced you may well get a good price in time. I think an original condition will always be a first choice but a new buyer wont be able to resist looking at the modified cars to weigh up their options.

If you have a non turbo you may only get a percentage of a turbo price but if its in good condition and your asking a fair price I'll bet you a bottle of single malt you wont have to wait very long to sell it.

I feel a very long list of everyone's favourite tipples being messaged to me now

Yep Oban for me. Failing that, Penderyn Port barrel aged.

In time for Christmas please mate !!

Anyway an interesting question this. I would have thought that as they become collectable, it will be condition rather than model which be the biggest factor. It is not always the latest and "best" models that become classics. Look at MGBs where the older chrome bumpers sell better than later ones. Same with split screen VWs. There might even be a premium for the niche market of the 16v "grale" engine coupes !! Since they will be as rare as rocking horse dung.

I suspect that the 20v will remain the coupe of choice though, simply because of the publicity.

Either way, i imagine it will be 10+ years before prices rise.

Hi Gripped

Yeh Im more Oliver Twist than Father Christmas!!

It was a 5 to 10 year punt I was looking at when I purchased early this year. Ive bumped into my other choice of cars I had in mind and confident I picked the best of the bunch.

Without sounding like a grumpy old man the only time any classics get any wide spread knowledge are when they're at the end of the scales because you get the comments in the 3 stages.

Stage 1 peak comments:- Ive been looking at these, cant believe how much they're worth nowadays.

Stage 2 crash comments:- Theyre not worth anything them are they, did you know how much they were fetching back in 1839.

Stage 3 recovery comment:- No comments, just a good old natter with a fellow car lover

I'd agree condition will be everything......but predict turbos and 16v's will be first to rise due to the performance / rarity.

That's exactly what has happened with my other car, a Porsche 944.... for many years they have just been old sports cars, however the past few years has seen excellent examples of the Turbo more than double in value, a trend closely followed by the early square dash models due to their rapidly dwindling numbers.

Only the very best most original early models are increasing - condition and originality being the key drivers. The turbos again are condition driven but sympathetically modified cars are also in demand.

The oldest early cars are now 32 years old....and the youngest are at least 22. years old......so I guess I would be looking at another 15 years before my 16v is considered worthy of a good return on my investment.

I suspect that after eighteen years, I've already had the good return on my investment...

Im currently restoring both a scotts green 20vt for myself and a porto 20v for my wife. My turbo is modified but i am keeping my wifes as original as possible.

You are definately one of the few that has actually profited from buying a new car Neil, I normally suffer the massive depreciation loss every three years or so when the car gets upgraded

Never owned a car that gave so many smiles per gallon! Outright performance aside the N / A sounds better and is as most report the more reliable of the models. It may take a few years before values start to climb but they will and I intend to keep mine a good few years yet.
Now back to my buzzing sunroof.....

I am in the annoying position of having too many old vehicles cluttering up the drive, and the while the Fiat is very practical for a Coupe, the other cars (both diesel) win the "sensible" competition..... so working out how to keep the Coop...... May even SORN it and try and squeeze into the garage.

My poor old motorbike is also jealous, as when ever I look at which keys to take, it's always the Coupe...

Now you know

I'm very happy with my N/A.

In fact I could have bought a couple of 'natty' VT's for the money I spent on it- but turbo engines have a harder life- thermally and compression wise. I'm in in this for the LONG haul.

I can live without 0-60 in 6.3 (or whatever it is) lovely as that is and you can't deny the performance of those cars is astonishing- been there before myself. But I can also live without the added engine management complexity (indeed I was professionally advised to do so) and so deliberately opted out.

That's my twopence worth!

JimP

JimP, the sentence you were looking for was "I'm a big wuss".

Haha

We'll ignore the fact that 'big wuss' cars like mine have been quicker around both Spa and Curborough than some 20VTs...

I'm in the enviable position of having either owned or driven for significant distances all engine versions. And I have always kept the 16V NA and sold the others.

The 20VT is an excellent long distance tourer - it's a classic GT. But the lighter front-axle weight and lower centre of gravity of a basic 16V makes it a much better car simply for driving in the twisties.

That has to be one of big complaints with the 20vt. It feels as if you're captaining it. A few years back I was able to drive a wide track mk1 Bravo with a 1400. It had no guts about but the balance of chassis was lovely. It actually felt agile.

Yeah- I think I'd agree with that; from memory- although 'setup' must have alot to do with it. I recall (when I had the 20VT) that my Marea 20V which I had at the same time felt like the more balanced car- there was certainly better feedback from the chassis.
I was more confident in it without a doubt.

one4seven- "yeah your right, mate- I'm all wuss..."

Must admit I agree with szkom, she does feel like a bit of a barge sometimes. If it wasn't for the warble and the whoosh I'd have a 16v or a VIS.

My old 16V NA sounded great under load

Don't tempt me...

16 NAs have a great sound as you open them up; they just spin up like a jet engine... I love the sound of mine wide open

I find driving a 20 NA a bit confusing; the extra engine pulse per rev makes me think I'm over-revving all the time and I keep reaching for the gear stick.

I've got a 20V n/a and a VIS now. Haven't driven either enough to know just how much better they may be yet! Having driven the 20V n/a for a little while, i did think that the gear knob position was great and it seemed nice and smooth to drive. The 5th gear ratio was very annoying on the motorway though.

I'm going to ask this here whilst we're on high reving 5th gears-

(I know it's a bit off topic)

do people change their gearbox oil, here at all?

The Lampredi lump with a K+N cone and Flea's chip and a Supersprint rear box is turbine-smooth with an incredible howl and intoxicating rasp on pick-up with delightful spitbacks on the over-run. Smiles per mile nowt comes close even after 6 1/2 years

If I can keep my vis coupe for 10 years I will be really happy. Think I'd better clean and wax it tomorrow!

With you on that, Annie...

After getting my copy of Practical Classics yesterday, I think I'll have to keep my VIS too.



Anyway, back on topic. If non turbo's are worthless, why are all us NA owners buying them?? After all, WE are the buyers at the moment, so it stands to reason that in the future there will be people who don't want a Turbo (or can't afford the upkeep) for the same reasons we don't.

The Coupe is about more than the engine. It's the design, the rarity, the Italian flair.... but having said that, all the engines have character and make a good noise.

Good turbo cars will be rare. Simply because many have been over modded, crashed or not looked after. So a good turbo will fetch big money. But the rest of the buyers will look at NA's to own a cost effective machine.

I still miss my non VIS HGT, great noise, smooth and lovely throttle response. It's the only car that I can honestly say I should have kept!

Yeah, I remember the HGT back in 1998. A neighbour had one, and it sounded great. Navy blue it was.

Probably the wrong thread to introduce myself, but our Coupe (it is officially my wife's and she drives it the most) was bought new back in 1997, and is a N/A - we considered the turbo and thought it was not worth it for the trip to Tescos. I try to look after it, it has 80k on the clock and I am in the process of replacing some "soft" components (ie suspension), and it is about to have its belts and pumps replaced - Alternative Autos will be retiring on my spend soon :-).

As to value - it is a great car, draws admiring glances, and I reckon we have had our money's worth over its life - and we are not planning on getting rid of it. Will it be worth anything in 10/20/30 years - who knows. And frankly, who cares - I will continue to look after it because it is worth it to me and my wife, with no speculation involved.

Cheers all

Marc

Only had my 16v for 3 years, cost me 650, fsh, 80,000 miles on the clock.Now has done 109,000 , does 50 miles every day, only once not started and most things purchased for it have been cosmetic or wear and tear items. Total bargain.
Of course i could have gone down fiat and bought a fiat 500 on monthly terms and that would have cost over 3,500 quid in repayments over 3 years! [ if not more ]. Mmmm, now which one would i prefer !!!

More than happy with my NA and prefer it to a turbo car as it feels more settled on the road, better gear change action and engine / exhaust note IMHO. Mechanically have had no major issues other than service items belts etc and bodywork ok considering age. Usual rust treatment to under bonnet brackets, chassis legs etc but try to keep on top of it as I want to keep mine for as long as possible.

Ive had a modded 20vt, a standard 20vt and now i have a VIS. When i bought my VIS i actually regreted buying it and wished i held out for a clean 20vt but now i have swayed back the other way and find the VIS is a much better car to drive day in day out. I dont think it will be long before we see a rise in demand and price for late type n/a's but also a bigger price split in 20vt's between very well looked after and tatty dogs.