Coupe Transplant project

Hi My name is Louise and I’m new to the forum. I’m an Active memeber on the Classic Alfa Forum as I have a race 33 and a a racing Type 916 spider TS. And I’m restoring an 84 Alfasud however it’s the spider that bring me to your Fiat coupe forum. I’m embarking on a radical new project with my Alfa Spider . we’ve recently bought a FIAT coupe 20VT. From everyone’s favourite auction site it’s a car that was being broken anyway but it’s still got most of the bits we need to transplant the running gear in to the spider. The reason is mainly it’s cheap power without going the Alfa Busso V6 route I’ll post pics of the project as it progresses.
Regards
Louise West

Hello and welcome. You should get all the info needed here as there are quite a few very knowledgable folks here.
Me not being one of them.

Good luck with the project.

It will be interesting to see if the 20VT engine will fit in the Spider chassis - from my (admittedly dim) memory, the front suspension turrets are fatter on the Spider (for the double-wishbone suspension), so you may have some issues

That said, a lot of the other bits are very similar, so there should be a fair amount of interchangeability

Hi Louise and welcome to the forum

That's an exciting project!

Best to start a Project thread in the Project section where you detail all your progress - with pics please! - and then a separate "Discussion" thread where anyone can comment on it. You'll get the idea by browsing in the section which is to be found at the bottom of the General Discussion area

Thanks for the info . The 916 Spider actually shares the same chassis ( the front end at least ). as the Coupe. The earlier 105 series had the double wishbone suspension and was rear wheel drive. As far as I can see at the moment it should all slot straight in ( famous last words ) A friend of mine did a similar transplant on an Alfa 145 And has a thread of his build in the forum projects areas . The main differences so far are the uprights and driveshafts are beefier but ill be fitting the entire subframe and suspension. Downside is my Konis won’t fit the bigger uprights .
I also need a fuel rail with injectors and an exh manifold . Oh yeah The turbo is Foobarred aswell
I’ve just been to the Project area but can’t find a “start new topic”tab .

Welcome to the forum, I look forward to following your build thread as I've always been tempted to do exactly what you're planning, a 916 with a 5 pot sounds awesome as I saw one at Viva Italia in 2016, electric blue I think it was, it went well on circuit.

New topic tab is top left under "forum list" but you being a newbie it may look different. A mod called Begbie should see you right.

So have you got the ecu etc for the engine?

You could go hybrid on the turbo also,easy 300 hp can be achieved.

I'm sure I have a spare to-rebuild turbo and a fuel rail here if you get stuck.

No Ecu at the moment I’d like to find one but we eventually intend to run it on an aftermarket system . We’ve got OMEX and 45mm Jenveys on the 33. Has anyone used An aftermarket programmable system on these engines ?? Motec . Megasqirt . Omex . opinions welcome .

I believe a couple of people have used Motec, but the standard ECU is more than capable of handling big power with a remap

That’s interesting and may help save a chunk of cash .

A lad on one of the fb groups just had his 20vt with a DTA80 ecu mapped. Went quite well

If you have an idea of what power you want to achieve the tuning section has tons of info there.
Or just fire a few questions in there.

I have all of those in stock, although if you’re aiming for a decent power increase, you should be considering an updated turbo from the outset

As for tuning options, there’s loads of info in the tuning section. Beware though, a turbo lump is pretty easy to extract more power from, and it becomes a very slippery slope. Ask me how I know....

Is the car destined for track only, or just road, or somewhere in between?

PS - whereabouts in Staffordshire are you?

I’m based in Stone. The car is a pure race car but we use the odd track day as test sessions . We need to keep the power output within certain class power to weight regulations. I’m also looking for a decent level of reliability. As we aim to do some endurance racing in Europe. Not looking for silly levels of boost but just a little more than std.

Done right, the Coupe is capable of silly power with excellent reliability. My own Coupe is running well over 450bhp and has about 300,000 miles on the engine (with a couple of rebuilds along the way, due to pushing the boundaries a bit too far)

If your class power limit is well below this, you’ll have the luxury of being able to “design” your power delivery to suit the track driving style, depending on what tracks you’ll be driving on. For example, I’d want quick spool at Cadwell and monster top end at Silverstone

I’m only in Rugeley, so if you want to pop over sometime and have a look at my Coupe, you’re very welcome

Get on AlfaOwner loads of threads on such a transplant going back a few years. Both the 16vt ('nineonesix' was the owner) and 20vt lumps have been utilised in the 916.

Or go for the GTV V6 Turbo, on eBay every now and then.

Nigel, what do you reckon is the most mileage that you personally could get out of a totally standard daily driver Coupe, if you were given one with zero miles, right out of the factory?

Do you think double the above mileage would be a realistic figure?

Ah a local! - im just up the road in lightwood!

Sounds a good project - watching with interest.

As long as there were service parts available, the mileage could easily be half a million or more. As long as it was serviced properly, using good quality consumables, it would carry on forever. Engines actually like being run - it’s cold starts and poor maintenance that kills them.

You’d have to drive it in the dry though - an engine will last longer than the bodywork...

Isn't the turbo GTV a sleaved down 3 litre ? So still a bit heavy, expecialy on the nose?. But, having said that, I wonder, has anyone "de-sleaved" one, leaving the turbo plumbing in place. Might need a bigger turbo, intercooler and fuel for the extra capacity. A 3 litre turbo would be awesome.

As we got the car without an Ecu . We’ve decided that rather than buy a std one we’re going to be using an aftermarket programmable ecu . We’ve got experience of Omex from the 33 but wondered if anyone has any recommendations for aftermarket ECUs that suit this engine .

Will reply to your pm after work.

Look on the fb group for a lad called Lee Fox. Just finished his mapping using a dta 80 ecu

Thanks but I don’t Do Facebook .

Smart Lad/lady!

Unless you are going above 450/500 hp you don't need another ecu.

Agreed - the stock ecu is perfect for up to 400bhp, while driving 440cc injectors. It gets a bit less friendly with even bigger capacity injectors, but it’s still pretty easy to live with, even near 500bhp

Got the engine out of the coupe now and started to strip it . Looks like this things been run low on oil. Crank need a grind on both mains and big ends. #3 was the rattley one. thankfully I think it’s std. so a 1st undersize should be fine. Even for racing. I’ll be getting the crank nitrided after its been ground.
And we’ll be fitting ARP big end bolts aswell
Clutch Is toast so I’ll replace with Helix paddle clutch (6 pad)
And the exh cam is knackered. So far it’s been a good Christmas got lots done

It might be worth doing some research on crank grinding for 20vts - from memory, I don’t believe there has been much success

Shameless plug - I have a known-good engine available

Hi Nigel.
Thanks for the heads up I’ll speak to my machine shop about the grinding.
Pm sent regarding engine
Lou.

Had my 16v crank reground and re-nitrided a couple of years back. Nothing's fallen off since.

Snap, I've had maybe a dozen cranks reground now and hardened, all still working well in the rebuilds.

20v's as well as 16v's?

Thanks for the words of encouragement guys I’d started to think I was on a hidding to nothing . TBH even if I was to buy another engine that is known to be a “good runner “ then id still be pulling the sump off to replace all the mains and big ends and fit ARP bolts. Im a big believer in preventative maintenance .

Are you going to use forged rods and Pistons?

Initially No. Just using std stuff to start with while we get the install done and bugs ironed out . Also std power will put me in with a chance against other cars in the class .were not looking for stupid power due to class power to weight restrictions. Eventually we may want more power but I don’t want to affect reliability .