Winter tyres for the 20vt

I'm looking to drive to Berlin over xmas - temperatures are already forecast to be -12C this weekend. The rule in Germany seems to be that winter tyres are not *required* but if there's an accident and they're not fitted, it's your fault by definition...

Hence I want some winter tyres. The websites I have seen seem to get confused when you ask them about M+S tyres... any recommendations? At the moment the Falken HS-439 seems a possibility. I'm not planning on driving there at 150mph, so the V/W/Z rated tyres are not necessary.

I'd be looking to keep two almost new Toyos to replace in Spring, but the rears are down to a couple of mm so are due for a change anyway.

You're right in Germany is quite that law.

I drive a good year ultra grip 205/50/16 speed rating H

I use Uniroyal MS Plus 66 on my winter wheels. All the winter tyres I found in 205/50 16 were H rated-as recommended in the Coupe handbook for winter tyres. I haven't tried them in snow yet but am looking forward to it. They've been on since October and have been good in all the weather conditions experienced since then.

I've also only found H-rated... but if conditions are like that I'm not going to be racing.

Every winter I drive on snow and coupé is controlled very well

Oddly enough, the first winter I bought the coupe - 1995 - I drove to see my parents on Skye, north west Scotland. Temperatures hit -20 and the sea froze, which is to say the least unusual... no problems with the coupe except an ABS light because the sensor was full of ice.

I read the other day that Pirelli are currently campaigning to get the use of winter tyres made mandatory in this country, as such, they are offering 50% off 4 winter tyres if the temperature reaches over 8°C for 30 non-consecutive days between sometime in November and something like February.

As you can see, the article didn’t exactly sink in, but with some investigation (I think it was on the BBC or Pistonheads) and meteorological luck, you might be able to get some cheap tyres!

I'd already seen the flyer - the details are here: http://www.pirelli.co.uk/web/car-suv-van/prom-iniz/terms-conditions.page and it needs 30 days above 7C average between 1st Jan and 28th Feb. That's the coldest part of the year... sucker bet.

<-- average min/max temperatures in the UK...

Pirelli are not a cheap option. While I would never advocate budget tyres on a performance car, I'm not sure I can afford what Pirelli want - £120 a corner or so.

I'll have a word at my friendly tyre place later this morning - I want to be sure they're happy to stick the Toyos back on in April.

Does it really matter during the winter? Not really going to be doing performance speeds on snow and ice and in the fog and rain, etc.

Have a look here for some idea on prices, etc.

Already looking at Mytyres, thanks - they use my local place as a fitter so I have some negotiation room.

My concern with budget tyres is irrespective of conditions - previous experience has suggested that even though they are required to meet all the relevant legislation, they tend to be harder compounds with less grip and poorer turning and braking abilities. That's just a personal view, not necessarily that of the management... but when all that's between me and the ditch is thirty square inches of rubber, I'd rather it was good rubber.

I completely mis-read that one word! Doh! <blushes profusely>

Auto Express recently tested winter tyres, you may have seen the article?

To summarise the article: the summer tyres that we use in this country are obviously poor on snow but there is a "middle way" called the "all season" tyre. Vredestein produce good all season tyres, but again you are looking at around £90/corner.

The ratings overall (aggregate test scores in brackets) were:

1. Goodyear (100.0)
2. Continental (99.7)
3. Dunlop (98.9)
4. Vredestein (98.6)
5. Pirelli (97.1)
6. Nokian (96.7)
7. All-season (95.1)

Last: Summer/standard tyres (76.4)

For my daily driver I use Vredestein because that is what we used at work, they offer excellent grip, great value and good lifespan. Example, Neil, you know the angle of the long driveway that accesses our house? Last winter our car was the *only* one that could tackle that successfully during the worst of the snow! Obviously some of that comes down to driving experience, I mean watching some people attempting that driveway in 1st gear, wheels spinning and wondering why they couldn't get traction, it is little wonder that people get caught out in poor conditions....

I vote for Vredestein, or if on a budget/not intended to be used on a regular basis, then look at Nokian.

For Germany, it has to marked with snowflake or M+S i.e. a defined winter tyre.

Vredestein are definitely on the list.

p.s. you have a rude, crude, and vulgar mind. I'd like it back please, if you're finished with it.

p.p.s. there are websites for people like you... Possibly NSFW though the front page seems OK.

The law has just got a little tighter here and if it is wintery, you must have winter or all-weather tyres on the car. So, yes do buy the right tyres.

The ADAC tested two sizes of winter tyres this year:

185/65 15:
http://www.adac.de/infotestrat/tests/rei...rcePageId=31821

225/45 17
http://www.adac.de/infotestrat/tests/rei...rcePageId=31821

The Fiat falls in between these two sizes, so a tyre that performed well in both tests should be good in a 205 15/16 size.

You will not go far wrong with any of the top brands. Dunlop seems consistent. Michelin have produced top winter tyres over the last two seasons (before that they seemed to have a weakness in the wet but lasted really well). Now they still last well but work better in all conditions. However, they are usually the most expensive brand. Conti and Goodyear rarely market a bad winter tyre.

I fully agree with you that tyres are very important and the saving on budgets is too small to worry about. Winter tyres are a massive compromise anyway because they have to cope with snow and ice - buy the best you can. Remember that a winter tyre only does snow and ice better than a good summer tyre. The rest suffers, even down to 0 deg.C, including shifting water. The 7 deg.C border is now a out-of-date myth, but still used by tyre companies to help persuade you to buy winter tyres.

Do you know where you're best getting these from - tried both blackcircles and tyreshopper and they either had none, or only Kumho/value rubbish*?



* I share the view that I would rather have the confidence that I've put good quality contact patches in each corner

I got a pair of Kumho KW17 last winter for the front of my 20VT and was really pleased with them. The traction in snow was great and on other winter roads they were very good, wet or dry. I think the usual rules about performance and brands are slightly different when it comes to winter tyres. I know the Kumho's don't get the highest rating in the tests but they were about the only ones I could get in January and I was pleasantly surprised with them.

Brave man mixing snow tyres and marbles!

I just use the local suppliers, they usually have to order them in but the price is good for normal tyres, I'm currently paying just £50+VAT for each tyre, that's a 205/55/16, but not a coupé....

Well, I had a long and instructive conversation with my tyre place... turns out everybody's advertising them but nobody's got'em. E.g. for the Falkens there are non in the country. Pirelli's were available at five hundred and fifty quid for the set... on a couple of week's notice.

I've ordered some Toyo Snoprox S952 which should be here at the weekend or so...

While I was at it I picked up fifty kilos of road salt at B&Q, and bought most of Halfords: fluorescent bile-green screen wash, three squirties of defroster, new bulb set (required on the continent and mine is somewhat depleted), WD40, power steering fluid (I have a slow leak), and silicon lubricant, with which I have just done all the locks and keyholes - don't forget the fuel filler - and the door rubbers on both coupes.

Good choice, I nearly put some on mine. I use the 4x4 version on my wife's RAV4 all year round. Excellent grip in snow and ice, light steering and good grip in all weathers. In the snow it was unstoppable. I drove down one snowcovered hill and got to work to find a colleague had crashed going down it and the police had closed it.
I've had them on for 20k miles and wear is negligable.

I should be able to report back as to whether £600 spent on winter tyres was a worthwhile investment. There can be few cars better than a Merc E-Class to prove their worth - especially a diesel auto. Apart from that, I have little interest in snow.

Are 205/50 15" and 16" tyres getting rarer. Yesterday I checked Reifen.com which is a good German internet tyre shop and the choice of tyres in these sizes is getting rather thin - only 5 choices in the 15" size!

Still 17 in the 16" size, but the prices seem extremely high for anything well known.

Hmm ... Maybe another reason to buy something more modern

No snow here (Oxon). -2 on the way to work.

Oh FFS! My work have decided to turn the heating OFF for a few weeks. They have given us a few gas heaters, but my office is a pathetic 17 degrees at the moment, plus I have the added luxury of an ill fitting window to cool me down.

<Rant over>

No sign of snow in my little bit of Northumberland this morning. It wasn't even that cold - I took the bike into work this morning and I'd say it was well above freezing.

Yeah, the major manufacturers seem to have stopped doing 15s in 50 or 55 a while ago.

Funny; when I bought the car, 195/55/15 were really low profile and hard to come by - three hundred quid a corner. It was cheaper for me to drive to Berlin and get some there... then they were a default size; now all the chavs want seventeens or bigger.

I'm thinking of getting just 2 front winter tyres for the other half's old corsa - what sort of budget do I need to have in mind? They're only small steel wheels.

Jim

Let's hope they are wrong......

Gosh!! I hope they are wrong, my thermals are still at the cleaners

I'm not sure just fitting two is a sensible plan. If grip at the front is a lot better than rear grip, the thing will spin like a top at the first roundabout.

The other issue is whether you can find some. Mytyres.com might be your best bet but on the Merc forum they were saying that they are tough to find (4 weeks ago). If the rush today at Costco for sledges, shovels and snow shoe grips was anything to go by, there will have been a similar rush around the country for snow tyres this week.

On the whole they seem to be about 50% more expensive than regular tyres.

who do you use neil?

This was with Kiplings. They do most of the stuff I don't have time for/can't be bothered to do/MOTs and such that doesn't need specialist Coupe guys.

I've used the guys down by the Volvo garage on London Road, but drifted away from them...

yeah, discount have gone a bit loopy

I only use apsley tyres now, down by shell in apsley. He's always beaten blackcircles and the like as well if you ask

I don't want to get into the type of discussion which I was involved in on Pistonheads about the use of two winter tyres on the front of an fwd car with summer tyres on the back but would comment that having done this last winter and it being the set up I have had for the last couple of weeks experience indicates it isn't a particular issue. In the typical conditions in the UK it seems OK. I have tried pushing pretty hard on roundabouts (when clear and as safe as it could be to do so), lifting off suddenly and can report that on the Coupe there has been no problem, I haven't managed to spin it and the back end doesn't feel loose even if I have been getting understeer and then lifting off.

Last winter when there was snow I did go into empty car parks and see what happened over the limits, yes the car oversteered but it didn't spin, and that was driving in a way to deliberately try silly things. With summer tyres I know I would just have gone straight on and not had much if anything in the way of brakes. In my opinion there was much more control and safety than with all summer tyres, although I am sure that all winter tyres would be even better.

To me the key thing is that in extreme weather I have traction, but if I drive knowing that there is snow and ice on the road and grip will be limited rather than thinking my winter tyres will make me invincible I will be a lot safer than with just summer tyres.

I have a spare set of wheels in the garage that really out to be kitted out for winter. Very few suppliers have them left in stock. Kwik Fit have Continental Winter Contact TS830s H-rated at £82 a corner - they even supply a bag to store them in over the summer!

Has anyone any experience of these tyres?

Tim

Andy, can you link me to the thread on pistonheads. Personally I think that 2 winter tyres should be better than none, but others have been confident this is not the case.

Would like to have a read of it as for £170 I could be tempted to take a pair of winter tyres.

Conti winter tyres are never worse than very good. Hard to go wrong with them. They were near the very top in this year's ADAC tests. Go for them

Neil,
thanks for the advice... very helpful,
Tim

They are the 55 side wall though, so 5 mm bigger than your std tyre. Are you buying 4 or 2?

Well spotted - just been out to check my (very old) Pirellis on the original wheels! Lots of other Coupe-related expense coming up, so no immediate plans. I might have to wait until the summer sales next year!

Slightly wrong, the profile number is a % of the width of the tyre, not mm

A good rule of thumb in the 200mm width or close to it, though... I now have the snoprox fitted all round, slightly more than I was originally quoted but not too bad. 205/50/16.

Haven't had the chance to play in snow yet, but they felt fine in sub-zero cold and dry.

MrCooper,

The PH thread is http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic...%20tyre%20users

Based on experience over the last few days driving quite a bit in/on snow (we have about 10 inches here) I can say that there hasn't been an occasion where I felt that I was in any danger due to the summer tyres on the rear. A couple of times the back has slid very slightly, but to refer to the correction as a dab of oppo would be an exaggeration as it really wasn't that bad. What I can also say is that I have got through things that would have been impossible with summer tyres - I was one of the first to leave the estate yesterday morning shortly before seven and there isn't a flat exit but I got through with no problem at all, getting up the slopes with no slippage at all.

I did find the limit of the car this morning, however. I couldn't get into my office car park due to a lack of ground clearance - the only way in was to follow in the ruts left by a few vans and my coupe bottomed out unfortunately - the mark from where the undertray stopped me was clearly visible in the snow!

All good with the winter tyres today. Most of my colleagues parked on the main road (with less snow), or attempted the small lanes near work then went off the road or gave up. I was able to give some a lift and had no problems. At least I got a space in the car park!

My biggest concern is what Anita will say when she discovers where I've stashed the summer tyres in the spare room...

....around your waist, or is that just your natural shape?


<grin, duck, run>

It's a good job I'm cuddling Maya and am therefore in a very good mood...

She probably thinks you are a bouncy castle!



<the safety of being out of range!>

oooooh, you! Why, I oughta...



p.s. can I have an [imggrandpop] tag please?

Okay, just received the tyresocks. Bit of a belt and braces, but let's see if I need them!

You are going to town there. Winter tyres and tyre socks!

Nah, going to town is chains as well

I don't want them to get cold!

And I'm planning midwinter journeys to Berlin, the Western Isles of Scotland, and the south-west...

You could take a look at the following rally tyres, all of which will work much better than 'ordinary' tyres in snow and slush. The "Alaska" tyres will work in snow and slush but will be better on icy roads due to the tread pattern.

Maxsport RB1 185/65/15
Maxsport RB1 175/70/15
Maxsport RB3 185/65/15
Maxsport RB3 175/70/15
Maxsport Alaska 185/65/15
Maxsport Alaska 195/55/15
Maxsport Alaska 195/65/15
Maxsport Alaska 2 195/55/15
Maxsport Alaska 3 205/55/16
Maxsport Alaska 3 195/60/15
Maxsport Alaska 3 195/65/15
Maxsport Alaska 3 205/65/15
Hankook R201 185/60/15
Hankook R201 195/65/15
Kumho Ecsta R700 185/60/15
Kumho Ecsta R700 195/65/15
Kumho Ecsta R700 205/60/15

Maxsport are remoulds but are top quality and regularly used in competitive rallying. Some are available in soft compounds for still better grip. Maxsport make the only 16" tyre in the above list.

If you want a new, branded tyre then there are the offerings from Hankook and Kumho, but neither offer a 16" tyre (in these tread patterns) so, like many of the Maxsports, these would only work if 15" rims will fit over your brakes etc.

I use 'winter' tyres (rally remoulds, soft compound) on only the front wheels on two front wheel drive cars and, unless you are trying to drive like a lunatic rather than just trying to get from A to B safely, the combination has no ill effects, as all the traction and most of the braking effort is through the front wheels.

Expect to replace winter tyres after a couple of winters, as the rubber is so important to grip and loses most of it's important low temperature characteristics very quickly. So buying cheap and often is better than buying expensive and expecting them to last you for five or six years.

Maybe in year three you could stick the old fronts on the rear if you'd like the same tyres all round and have enough spare rims.

p.s. narrow tyres offer more grip in snow, slush and ice than wider tyres!

You sound like you know what you are talking about but I'm afraid you will get panned on here for suggesting only 2 winter tyres. There are lots of people on here who, although they have never owned a winter tyre, are convinced that leaving "marbles" on the back is a sure-fire shortcut to the morgue!

It's also nice to see a member who has joined in the last 6 months and who is not hopeless when it comes to punctuation.

I agree with all of the above.

I've put my winter tyres on just the front two, as they are the driving wheels.

I also went for narrower tyres and bought 195/55/16's, rather than replacing them with the 205/50/16's.

The narrow tyres are better in the snow, etc and work out cheaper to buy too.

Mine cost me £78 for the pair.

I'd rather a pair of cheap winter tyres on the front, than none at all.

Can't argue. New tyres on the back are for avoidance of aquaplaning; unlikely in snow.

But I'm paranoid about tyres and very much prefer to have similar tyres at each corner. Had I been able to get only two, they'd be on the front.

Equally, I'm not planning on occasional days in the snow. I have several thousand miles planned in the depths of winter; I want the best chance I can get.

If there is snow everywhere, summer tyres get coated in snow and increase the chance of the rear coming round when you least need it to - just like aquaplaning in the wet. It won't happen when you are expecting it and looking for it, but when something unexpected happens, you will suddenly lift off or brake hard and spin.

In the UK, the amount of snow has usually been little and roads mainly cleaned, so you have a chance of getting away with it, but it is not the configuration that should be recommended.

I would say that anyone braking hard on ice and snow is an idiot and deserves what comes next - let's hope no-one else is involved in your accident.

Driving on public roads in winter is not the place to exercise your dream to be Hannu Mikkola.

Unless you are braking whilst cornering, the backend is very unlikely to come round. You shouldn't even do that in the dry. Most winter accidents in front wheel drive cars are caused by people going straight on in corners (understeering) due to lack of front grip.

I'm not suggesting don't have four 'winter' tyres all round if you want/can afford them - but you can safely go from A to B with just front tyres if you drive accordingly and not like a nutter.

If, as above, you are planning to drive several thousand miles in winter conditions, then I would agree that four winter tyres would be preferable. However, if all you have is a 20 mile commute each day, or just need to get out for food and other supplies to survive, then two will be much better than none and can be perfectly safe if you drive sensibly.

We have snow every winter here and I have not had any accidents yet in 15 years I'm actually a very careful driver and have no intention of pretending to be a rally driver. It does not take much snow, nor much speed to slide and it can happen to anyone.

When you have the wrong tyres, you will understeer first, but if you have grippy tyres on the front, you make the back comparatively unstable.

Winters in the UK seem to be getting worse and if you compare the price of tyres to the price of petrol that people seem very happy to burn, or cool but almost pointless accessories, I would much rather drive slowly on the right tyres than anywhere on the wrong ones.

Driving with such mixed tyres will sooner or later demand the skills of a Hannu Mikkola ...

I didn't mean your accident, as in you personally, I meant it to any person that brakes hard in snowy or icy conditions, particularly when cornering, or drives in a generally stupid way.

Any braking when cornering, but particularly hard braking, is a bad way of driving even on bone dry roads. In the wet, or worse in snowy/icy conditions, it is positively dangerous. End of.

group5lancia, I don't know, nice puctuation and then letting yourself down by [mistakenly] slating a long standing and helpful forum member. Tsk tsk!

My appologies if that is what you also read into my post, but it was not my intention; I can't have made myself clear enough.

I was slating bad/unsafe driving in general, particularly in winter conditions. I meant no slur to safe drivers and specifically not to any individual on this forum.

Who, me? I don't feel slated. Just a polite discussion.

Oh, wait, you said 'helpful'... must have meant someone else.

A car with the rear wheels locked is *unconditionally* unstable. Sooner or later the back wheels will be leading the way. The discussion is whether this is a likely scenario...

Since I can afford to fit decent snow tyres on each corner, it seems a reasonable thing to do. That way I get the best grip at both ends. I don't generally drive like a loon; in thirty years of driving to Scotland midwinter, usually with normal tyres, the only time I ever got stuck was the last hundred yards trying to get up my sister's drive last year - 1 in 3, eight inches of snow, and a Cupra which required the TCS turning off to let the wheels go around at all. That was *after* the six hundred mile drive at -15C.

And as Lancia says: don't brake on corners. Do it on the straight. Slow in, fast out...

If it was possible to do everything by the book, there would be no accidents. We have to remember that even good drivers may become involved because of somebody else's mistake.

A quote from this weeks Telegraph:

"Even after last winter's lessons, we still see drivers over-revving their engines and spinning their wheels on icy surfaces, or driving too close to the car ahead, or failing to anticipate the need to slow down and hitting the brakes too suddenly and too hard."

... "Even if you can drive well in the snow, not everyone else can."

You may have to stop half-way around a bend because someone proving that he has less sense or skill than you is blocking the road. That is when you will be please you did not skimp on those other two winter tyres.

Anyway, I guess there are two camps here. I can live with that

Yes, they are called Mario and Marco......

Skids: caused by a failure in the human/machine interface, simple as that.

Living in the countryside, as I do, I drive around every blind corner expecting the road to be blocked and drive accordingly, whatever the conditions.

Blocked where I live can mean a tractor and trailer taking up all the road, an idiot in a 4 x 4 or anything from a white van to an artic driving down the middle coming the other way, or a stationary car stuck in snow halfway round a blind corner as you suggest. The only way to avoid an accident is to be driving slow enough to stop, whatever the conditions and whatever your tyres. If you can't stop in time, you are driving too fast for the conditions/level of grip. Simples. In my experience, driving with anticipation or what the police and advanced motoring instructors call 'defensive driving' is what avoids accidents - not tyres or tyres alone.

To anyone that feels safer with four winter tyres, I would be the last person to tell them not to. It's a free choice.

Be able to "stop in the distance you can see to be clear". It's that straightforward, or difficult, depending on what you take from it.

Doesn't everyone drive like that anyway? At least, those of us who can drive?

I'm conscious that we're all furiously agreeing with each other here...

Hey! If you're looking for an argument, Lancastrians are nicer people......


<waves from the safety of being beyond visual range>

You are quite right. Could not agree more.

Going back to the point about remoulds there is an interesting point in evo this month about them that I had never considered - because they are remoulds the carcasses can be from very different tyres so, despite the visible branding and tread pattern, you could could have very different tyres on the same axle. I haven't used remoulds for many years (I once wore a set of remould crossplies out on a mini in less than 3000 miles) so not saying they are good or bad, just an interesting perspective.

One other point, winter tyres on the front, summer tyres on the back, snow, handbrake, fun

I can't be bothered will all this messing around with winterising the car malarchy.
If the weather is bad I take the winter car instead: an old golf diesel with skinny tyres. ultra reliable and pulls throught the snow no problem.
No frozen locks, doors, fuel caps, handbrakes and the thermostat never fails

What temperature does the diesel fuel start to wax at? <grin, duck, run>

"arctic" diesel is typically produced with a pour point of -15°C, but the more critical test is CFPP (cold filter plugging point) but that can be improved with additives. Typical summer/europe spec is 0°C pour point.

I can't be sure (you can check with Maxsport) but I believe they only use Michelin carcases and each type of tyre uses only one carcass type.

I wouldn't trust imported remoulds, but a remould from a known British manufacturer with a long and good reputation in the business should be ok. I've certainly used them in motorsport with never a failure, despite some pretty rough treatement.

Companies which sell them, like Ears and Demon Thieves, have business reputations to maintain too, and if they sold rubbish their names could be severely tarnished.

A clue to a badly made tyre, or a potentially damaged carcass, is if it won't balance easily; I have had brand new budget tyres (i.e. not remoulds but not mainstream brands either) that have taken more lead to balance than any Maxsport I have used over the years.

Remember to check with your insurance company regarding winter tyres, I jest ye not!

Just to back up my point......

Well that doesnt make sense!!
Even if it reduces the chances of an accident by 1% why on earth would they charge more

BAH! Money Makers

Money, money and more money! They'll use the argument that it's a non-standard modification and charge accordingly, just to keep the shareholders happy. Where insurance is concerned there is no logic applied.

Having said that, I can "sort of" see their point: when the snow disappears how many people will immediately swap back to normal tyres and how many will try to drive normally on winter tyres on dry tarmac?

Whats the implications of using winter tyres on dry tarmac?

(a) they wear out faster
(b) you're unlikely to have the same speed rating (though it will be at least 130mph)
(c) if it rains, you'll stop faster.

So, you'll feel safer and therefore drive like a loon, bumping into things right and left and therefore increasing your risk. The price therefore goes up.

Last year there was a hard frost - -5C - in May...

Just one other small point to be aware of: winter tyres should be changed when the tread depth gets to 3-4mm.

Reason for highlighting this? I am seeing a lot of naughty people on Ebay who I suspect know this and have bought new winter tyres and decided to prey on the ignorance of the general public by selling their "part worn" old set of winter tyres, where they state that the tread depth is "still up to 4mm in places", in other words, useless and destined for scrap!

Is the 3-4mm the snow+ice wear bar? I would imagine they are still legal in this country (but perhaps not in countries mandating winter tyres).

Bit pointless, I know winter tyres benefit you on cold wet roads but the major bonus for me is being a bit more controlled on snow+ice.

To the best of my memory/knowledge Dave, they'd be treated as legal without any issues in the UK. I'd have to do some digging to get a definitive answer but I actually doubt that we have a different ruling for winter tyres, in fact I'm sure we don't, it's only a recent phenomenon in the UK.

In the wet, I'd be quite happy at 4mm, but in the snow.....

Ah, memories of trying to do a running commentary live on air while piloting a go-kart around Bradford ice-rink on 'studded' tyres (they'd just shoved a fistful of self-tappers through the rubber from the inside).

I blame Pudsey bear.

Apparently they have revised their view now, there should be no penalty.

Quite right too!! I suspect it's either sensationalist reporting or a storm in a teacup, as usual.

The BBC are rapidly confirming their status as the "Red Top Tabloid" of the internet!

It's all since I left.

If the insurance companies considered non-standard tyres as modifications, any car more than a couple of years old would be in trouble; the original tyres for my sixteen haven't been available for ten years in that size.

Exactly correct Neil! I mean, the tyres fitted to my daily driver were Pirelli "Ditchfinders" and I've never been so glad to get rid of a set of tyres in my life! The insurance company would have had a very time in court if they'd argued that changing the standard tyres was, in any way, a modification from factory standard! In fact when I asked the supplying dealer why they'd gone with those awful tyres he stated that it would be "Just whatever the buyers had managed to get the best deal on that month" and sure enough, look at a pre-registered car a few months older and it had Goodyear tyres fitted! GRRRRR!!!

You could well be right in all you say about the motorsport remoulds - I was just quoting evo magazine who are usually well informed.

In terms of tread depth, certainly for my wife's Berlingo I will probably just use them on the back during the summer once they have worn down to 3-4mm, it doesn't get cornered hard and we might as well get the use out of them!

The SMMT agreed with insurance companies that there would be no loading of premiums for fitting winter tyres.