atmo cams timing

please some advice of how to adjust timing of atmo cams on 16vt engine

thanks, Sasa

Vernier pullies

You should have a look at this thread :

http://www.fiatcoupeclub.org/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1155631#Post1155631

I'm actually mesuring differents fiat cam diagrams to define what are the cam timing you should set up to have 1.6mm of lift at inlet and 0.5mm of lift at exhaust at TDC.

The data will be available in a few weeks (tipo cam : 10.15mm max lift, fiat 16v cam : 9.57mm max lift, stock turbo intake cam 8.5 mm max lift and exhaust turbo cam 7.5 mm max lift)

Depends very much on when and where in the revs you want to make power and torque. The only way to really tell that is to spend time on the dyno trying different settings, which is what I've been doing recently.

Also, bear in mind that it all also depends on what cams you have; Coupe 16V n/A, Tipo 16V, Coupe 16VT and Delta cams are all different to each other.

I'll post up more about it in the near future, but I can say there's as much 20 bhp and 20 lbs ft difference to be had - and you can't have both!

I will be very interested to see your results when you publish them.

All the dimension and timing information I have collated is from the internet, so might not be reliable. The most common N/A cam must be the Fiat 7727838 part with 9.57mm lift. From what I have found, standard timing for that in a normally aspirated engine is 1/45 at 0.8mm clearance. In a turbo engine something like 11/35 should give just under 1.3mm lift at TDC - and you could get to 1.6mm lift at TDC by advancing the cam further but I'm pretty sure that the results would not be good. Standard 16VT timing is 8/35 I believe.

With the Fiat 7977190 cam the lift is 10.15mm and the timing is 3/51 at 0.8mm clearance in a normally aspirated engine. For turbo use, advancing the cam to 15/39 would give around 1.6mm lift at TDC I by my rough calculations.

The exhaust valve needs to be more or less on it's seat (0.5mm or less) at TDC, which is what the standard exhaust cam delivers with standard lift and timing. Stock inlet cam gives about 1mm lift at TDC by my calcs.

As I said, it will be good to compare what I have deduced with your own results.

thanks , we will try and result will be published

I will be looking forward to this. Put both the inlet and exhaust cams in my new engine. Have not started the engine yet a couple of days of more work to be done on the car.

So, I have begun to make some mesurements on the tipo 16v cam.
I'm not sure that we speak about the same think so I want to give some precisions :

the cam diagram at 0.8mm doesn't take into account the fiat valve clearance :
so if you take 0.4mm valve clearance at inlet, you will only see 0.4mm of valve opening at TDC

I agree that with 9.75mm lift cam and the original timing of 1/45 the lift at TDC will be 0.47mm with clearance set at 0.4mm rather than 0.8mm. But if you advance the cam to 11/35 - i.e. 10 crank degrees or 5 cam degrees - lift at TDC will be 1.2mm-1.3mm by my rekoning.

However, unlike you I don't have the cam diagrams/graphs, so my figures might be different which is why I am interested to know what you find so I can correlate the two sets of results.

So,

I will try to explain with my little english what I have found. I'm missing the fiat turbo inlet cam diagram but it should be done soon.

Before the mesurements, I have checked all the cam max lift and compared to what is given from fiat /lancia.
On this point everything is ok so I guess the cam I have are not too much used...

Fiat tipo 16v (10.15mm) cam :
The lift at 0.8mm is about 232° (
fiat gives 236°) so not much difference here.

This cam is one of the most aggressive fiat/lancia cam for the 16vt engine (see picture below, it's the red curve). We see that the opening of the valve is sooner than all others cams.
I need the results from fiat inlet cam diagram to give you the stock cam timing for this cam used with the turbo inlet cam pulley on (I think it should be the same as what is given by fiat but I have some doubts.)

To have an idea of how these cams or set between each others, I have put them on the same pulley to see what are the results... so the picture below gives the cam diagram when the camshafts are simply "exchanged" between each others without any vernier pulley modification.



Fiat 16v NA (9.57mm) cam : the lift at 0.8mm is only 198° (fiat gives 226°). I have checked many cams from the camshaft (only 2000km) and it gives the same results...

So for me the lift at TDC with this cam on the inlet is 0.58 (0.3mm of gap +0.28mm valve lift)

and to go from 0.58mm of lift to 1.2mm, I have to put 12° of advance at the cam pulley (or 24° to crankshaft).




Then the last one is the fiat 16vt ewhaust cam (7.5mm) : the lift at 0.8mm is 190° (fiat gives 210°)

So for me the lift at TDC is 0mm which should be ok.

Here is the link for the cam curves :

http://img19.imageshack.us/i/camdiagrams.png/

Sorry for my bad English!

Well done Julien - very interesting information. It is very curious that in two cases the durations given by Fiat don't agree with the actual cams. Maybe they changed from measuring at 0.8mm lift to something lower at some point.

Is there anyway you can post/share the data, maybe as a spreadsheet, giving lift value for each degree of these camshafts? Plus the standard cam when you have plotted it.

be sure to note there are 2 types of tipo 16v cam profiles.

Absolutely - the 10.15mm lift (5 door) cam is Fiat part no. 7697190 and the 9.57mm lift (3 door) cam is Fiat part no. 7727838. I can't find any other cams from Fiat for the 16 valve engine that have the same lifts as these two, so I think that Julien is measuring up the correct cams.

There is a cam used in early N/A Lancia Themas - part no. 7625939 - but that has less lift (only 9.1mm) and slightly longer (published) duration of 239 degrees.

Yes I wonder How did they do to give the cam durations. The corresponding lift to fiat cam data would be more around 0.6-0.65mm but not 0.8mm.

I will give you the excel sheet with all the data but at the moment I have only mesured the cam lift every 3° (I didn't have the tools to make better mesurements).

So It would means that the fiat coupe 16v NA camshafts are the same as some version of tipo?

My research (again Internet only but cross-checked on multiple sites/references) suggests that the 3 door Tipo cam and the Coupe N/A cam are identical. The same cam appears to have been used in the Fiat Croma IE/Lancia Delta IE/Lancia Dedra IE/and Lancia Thema S3.

This is the 9.57mm lift part no. 7727838

I had hoped that the cam profile you haven't yet plotted is the standard 16VT inlet cam? As that is the one that people will want to replace with the 'best option' and so a comparison would be very useful.

There it is (i will translate later from french fiat coupe forum):

So,I have taken out the fiat 16vt inlet cam to take some data :

With 0.8mm of gap i have only 210° of duration; I have to set up the gap at 0.6mm to obtain the fiat value (223°) which confirm my previous ideas concerning the others camshafts (16vt exhaust and 16v NA).

I have corrected the curves as my first try was not very accurate : if we compare the tipo and the 16vt inlet cam, it seems that the tipo cam opens generally later than standard 16vt inlet...and there is more than 20° of difference at the max lift of the cams !!. I wonder if the air doesn't escape a little from the cylinder to the inlet plenum as the intake valve closure is about 60° after BDC


And for those who want to put the fiat 16vt inlet cam to the exhaust, we can still gain some power because the inlet cam opens before the OEM exhaust cam (about 10-12°).

So for me, with the tipo cam at inlet and the 16vt intake cam at exhaust, I think I should try in a first time to advance tipo cam by 8-10°(at camshaft) and to delay the exhaust cam about 4-5°(at camshaft)



This is the curves, I have corrected the tipo one (I had done a mistake in my mesurements)

[img]http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/1713/aack.jpg[/img]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Nice work Julien

I take it echappement and admi mean exhaust and inlet?

Yes you are right

I think it is highly probable that the Tipo has a different cam wheel and that when the cam is fitted to it the inlet opens earlier than the VT and closes later too - but not as much as 60 degrees ABDC.

If you re-plot all the curves so that the peak lifts coincide I think this will show more clearly what happens. At 0.6mm lift the Tipo timing will be something like opens 7 degrees BTDC and closes 47 degrees ABDC - maximum lift 110 degrees ATDC. I would suggest timing of 15/39 for turbo use - maximum lift 102 degrees ATDC. If you are able to publish the data at some point I will plot it myself and show you what I mean.

don't know if this is already known, but this is the cam data for the tipo 5dr cam

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/sediciRich/0001000.jpg

Interesting sedici. From that data it would look like the duration at 0.8 mm is 240 degrees (60 x 4) - assuming the profile is symetrical of course....

Yep, that's right. When you put the Tipo and 16VT inlet pulleys side-by-side, the keys are almost 90 deg apart. Got to use the Tipo pulley with the Tipo cam.

BUMP!

SO I have done a few try (+5° at inlet)....and it seems that Guy was right. the engine was idling badly, and I lost some torque between 1000 and 3500rpm but above, the engine feels more free to rev up (at only 1 bar).

The tipo camshaft is not that much different from the original settings (I'm only speaking about lobe center distance from TDC)

I don't know how I did it, but I made a mistake (sorry...)

I will post the new curves tomorrow and try a new settings : -4° at exhaust and -2° at inlet.

Mr GC, I should be able to give you the data in the week.

Stay tuned.

There it is :

notice that, I have done the mesurements every degree only for the fiat 16vt inlet, all the others cams have been mesured every "1/2 tooth" (I hope it is the right word...)

the cams on the graph are now how they should be if you just exchange them without changing the timing or the pulley.

http://dl.free.fr/pOCWkbA1c

That is a bad/infected link I think Julien

Oups, i will try an other site

This should work better :

http://dl.free.fr/pOCWkbA1c

It's an Excel download so maybe your anti-virus/web browser is blocking it

Julien: Nice work there!

Your plots are great - and interesting in that the Tipo cam does not seem to have the same profile as the one in the spec sheet posted above (post #1202258) by sedicirich.

The profile you have produced seems to be asymetric, opening much slower than the other profiles but closing at a similar speed to the other profiles. Because of this I think the cam timing would be hard to guess right for a turbo and would need to be done on a dyno.

The Fiat 16V Cam, on the other hand, looks like it could be good just by setting peak lift at the same point as peak lift on the 16VT cam it is replacing.

Yes, i think a few try will be neede to find the right timing, I'm now trying -4° (= retard) at exhaust pulley and -2° at inlet cam. It should improve a little bit at high revs without losing too much torque at low rpm.

I have already tried some advance at inlet cam, (+3°) and the engine had way less torque at low rpm, but was easily revving past 4000rpm.

Being the sad sort of chap who has an unhealthy obsession with engines and doesn't get out much, I've been experimenting with different cam timing on the dyno with my own car and I thought it would be interesting to share the results with you peeps.

The setup is exactly the same for every run - well, nearly. The final run was with forged pistons, but they are still stock size and compression:

>Tipo 16V 5-door inlet cam and pulley, stock Coupe 16VT cam and pulley
>T34 hybrid turbo, 44-trim comp, 63 a/r hot-side, stock turbine @ 1.3 bar
>3"custom downpipe
>2.5" exhaust system & decat
>tubular manifold
>external wastegate & screamer pipe
>cylinder head knife-edged port dividers, but otherwise stock

Every change of cam timing has been remapped to suit.

I traced all the results on to the same chart for easy comparison.



The picture seems to have lost some of its colour after being uploaded to Imageshack, but these are basic results:

Both cams stock positions: 280 bhp @ 5100 rpm, 333 lbs-ft @ 4000 rpm.
Nice big wodge of mid-range torque, but drops of quickly and dies a death just over 5000 rpm. Well suited to a fast-spooling T3, but a poor match for a T34, which is capable of flowing well past 5000 rpm.

Both cams retarded 1 tooth: 313 bhp @ 6300 rpm, 279 lbs-ft @ 5200 rpm.
Engine now makes more power and further up the revs, but at the expense of a lot of torque. On the road the car feels like it takes ages for the turbo to spool and is sluggish to accelerate. Not good.

Inlet retarded 1 tooth, exhaust stock: 296 bhp+, 323 lbs-ft @ 4200 rpm.
Great torque at low revs. Still drops off sharply, but much better than the first result. We stopped the run before it reached peak bhp but it looks like it would have made similar power to the previous run.
Only one problem. The idle was irritatingly lumpy, with a loss of performance just off-idle. Although this may have been partly down to the MAP sensor at that time, which turned out to be faulty.

Inlet and exhaust retarded somewhere between result 2 and result 3: 321 bhp @ 6200 rpm, 296 lbs-ft @ 5600 rpm.
The exact timing is, well that's my business! Besides, optimum timing will depend on each individual engine's setup. The engine feels like it picks up at 3500 rpm. Then there's a kick at 4500 when the turbo hits full boost and it keeps pulling right to the rev limit. Perfect match for this particular turbo

Despite the big horsepower number from the fourth setup, comparing the torque curves I would bet money that setup 3 would be quicker on the road, 0-60 etc.

Did you get to drive the car between dyno runs?

i have got to get a mule engine to measure cam timings, this thread is a refreshing change from the regular missives.

did you measure lift on overlap on the various profiles?

I drove all three cam settings on the road. Setting No.1 felt rapid according to my butt-dyno . But on an a real dyno it shows that the car made lots of torque for overtaking but it wasn't really going to be that fast overall.

Setting No.2 was terrible on the road. Like driving a Honda in 5th gear - ie. slooow!

No.3 felt fast in-gear. Just as fast as No.1 between, say, 50-70 mph. Looking at the horsepower curve, I guess it would have made about 313 bhp too. I think that would have been a great setting if it wasn't for the terribly lumpy idle at the time.

No.4 feels fine on the road. You can feel that it pulls hard up to the redline.
It feels about as "torquey" as settings 1 and 3, but it just happens a bt higher up the revs.

It's quite easy for me to swap between settings 3 and 4 would be really interesting to try these out on the dragstrip and see which one really is fastest.
My bet is that; in gear-changing acceleration, like a drag where you'd be revving between 5000-6500, that settings 3 and 4 would yield quite similar times - Possibly no.4 winning.

Whereas if you're Audi-baiting on the motorway, staying in one gear, I think No.3 would win.

Not yet, I'd like to do that when I get the time. Would be good if somebody could do the stock 16VT overlap figures too.

Tell me please if I understood right because of my bad english. 1.stock crankshaft timing 2. Fiat tipo inlet camshaft with it's own pulley. 3. Oem inlet camshaft with it's own pulley for replacing the exhaust camshaft

The pulleys and cams are the same on all three setups: Coupe Exhaust cam with Coupe exhaust pulley. Tipo inlet cam and Tipo pulley.

Just the timing was changed each time. By one tooth at first. Then for the last one I machined the keys in the pulleys to allow me to adjust a few degrees at a time.

So 1 teeth is 4,5 degrees I think. In the last option is about a half teeth? With adjustable pulleys we are talking about 2-2,5 degrees?

There are 50 teeth, so each tooth = 7.4 deg. So half a tooth is approx 4 deg.

"Real" adjustable pulleys allow you to adjust cam timing within 1 degree.

...And are also a lot less hassle to adjust. You only ever really need to adjust 2 degrees at a time, btw.

I made cheap-skate adjustable pulleys by slotting out the key by the number of degrees I wanted!

I've been thinking about how to modify the stock pulleys to them to make them into proper verniers. Haven't plucked up the courage to butcher my rare cam pulleys though!

Have you think anything about exhaust camshaft? What about tipo's exhaust camshaft?

I've got a set of 16vt cam pulleys that I'm selling

It would be awfull : too much overlap and too much lift as it is an NA engine, the exhaust and the intake cam have the same cam profile.

Do you know that for sure?

That's not meant to be rude, by the way! I just mean have you tried it and tried different timing settings?

I've checked both intake and exhaust cam from tipo and they are the same but I haven't tried it.

On turbo engine you should not run the same overlap and cam lift on both intake and exhaust side.

The fiat tipo cam should be fitted at the exhaust only If you have an aggressive intake cam like Gr.A or even C&B race cam, not less.

sorry to burst into thread..

does anyone have info about stilo 2.4L 20v cams? timing, lift, etc...

where can it be found?

When you say overlap I take it you mean as a function of duration ie; degrees ?

Just to add my piece,i have messed about with a few sets of cams now and i find the inlet works best as standard as it can be altered by the displacement of the variator,and i go more aggressive with the Exhaust timing.
Dont notice any difference in power but drivability is much improved,and it stops the ''on/off switch''power associated with the aftermarket cams.

I havent seen these cams but just make sure they offer duration on the cam lobe rather than lift only as this engine doesnt respond well to high lift but poor duration.

Yes that's what I mean

I don't think that rule is as 'set in stone' as tradition would have you belive, many cam manufactures sell symetrical cam pairs for turbo cars. It's all a question of pressure differnces, the type of engine and what it will be used for that might lead you to use such a comination. I don't know everything about the subject, but I do know it works in the right combination of manifolding and turbo choice.

I can never leave anything well alone! I've been playing with the timing again and I reckon I've come up with a better mix of top-end power and mid-range torque. Certainly feels more lively on the road. I probably won't get to dyno it 'till next month, but I'll post up when I get some results.

Just a quick question or two.

I believe the stock Tipo inlet timing gives max lift at 110 degrees ATDC. Can you confirm that?

Retarding one tooth would make that 117.2 degrees and half a tooth 113.6 degrees. Before your latest 'tweak', do those settings represent what you were doing in your earlier experiments?

Hi, I don't know what stock timing is on the Tipo. Maybe Sedicirich knows this?

I do need to measure the actual max lift and/or the TDC timing on my own car.

Bump

Old Thread RISE!!


I still haven't measured the lift or timing because I'm still enjoying having a leak-free rocker cover gasket! lol

You guessed why I had revived it anyway!

Your reason for not measuring is good enough, I guess

What was the final setup and final dyno figures?

I am sure this cam with published 226 degrees is the Fiat 7625939 cam. There is another - the 7727838 - which has longer duration I believe.

http://www.turbo124.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=435

The final setup is my current setup:
5-Door Tipo inlet
16VT inlet (on exhaust)
timed in using adjustable pulleys

Result was 403 bhp @ 6200 rpm / 385 lbsft @ 5200 rpm, 1.55 bar


I didn't post up the results on this thread because they're not really directly comparable with my others; new engine build, new turbo, more boost, different dyno. But all the results together still show the strong effects that cam timing has on a turbocharged engine.

One thing that doesn't show so well on dyno graphs is how important it is to adjust timing for a balance of torque and power; Sometimes losing a few bhp at the top-end, in return for more torque -or a wider spread of torque- can make the car genuinely faster on the road.

'16VT inlet (on exhaust)'

Are the cams diffent duration on the 16vt inlet to exhaust? Pretty sure they were the same??

Well, at that boost I have to say I don't think anyone would beat your torque figure with any cams, any build... so well done!

From the graph you also have 95% of peak torque between 4400 RPM and 5500 RPM - which is fantastic.

A higher peak power at 1.55 bar might be achieved with a different cam/head combination that allowed for higher revs, but apart from that I would say you have 'maxed' it.

Brilliant.

Very different. The stock 16V inlet is 'small' anyway and the exhaust is even smaller - practically a knobbly stick! I guess it's designed to spool up a small turbo T3 turbo and keep the high backpressure from reversing back into the cylinders. ie. it's not a cam for making power.

Ijust searched out this very useful graph of cam curves that Julien posted years back:





Cheers and the other week confirmed against a, so-called, "heartbreaker" Dyno Dynamics! Made Made 393 bhp / 380 lbsft @ 1.5 bar. Less than 3% difference - well within acceptable error considering different dyno, ramp rate, weather conditions, etc. So no bogus results here

damn more sorting needed, na are the same well at least I can sort the turbo cams for the bin. thanks for the cam chart.

Just to put the cat amongst the pidegons on this one 'heart breaker' results are in.

C&B Med Road Cams, standard timing, 385flbs @ 1.35bar boost at approx 5100rpm. 250lbs @ 3500rpm, 345lbs @ 4000rpm and still 350lbs @ 6000rpm.

Kj's actually got a heartbreaker printout.... So you 2 16vt heavy weights get your graphs up in this thread!!

graphs please...

Photo's of the graphs or scans? One will be tomorrow, the other Monday.

any

Power and Torque


Power and Boost


Photobucket is being stupid, it keeps putting one photo on the side regardless of the roatation.

Here you go:


VIDEO

Hi Begbie, good to see your engine does make decent torque afterall - Or at least so it seems; Unfortunately I can see from the printout that your dyno pull was done on the wrong setting! It should have been done on Shoot 4F. Shoot 6F is for 6-cylinder (RWD, IIRC) engines. So the compensation calcs were incorrect for your car, likely making your figures higher than they should be

What was you wheel bhp? Mine was 334 bhp.

Okay just so we've actually got something to talk about, lets ignore the fact that the pull was done using the wrong compensation calcs Your dyno result does show several interesting things:

First, far from being a cat amongst the pigeons It shows the importance of real tuning - as opposed to just doing a bit of mapping and calling it a day. With some effort and careful tuning it's possible to make a £100 2nd-hand cam setup produce the same performance as a £900 (that's what C&Bs seem to cost ATM) specially designed performance turbo cams. It also further convinces me that C&B cams aren't worth their crazy asking prices! Why pay nearly a Grand when you can get Catcams (my favourite make of cams so far), which cost like half the price?!

Off the topic of cams and this thread, but your dyno sheet also goes to show the worth of proper headwork. (ignoring the shootout mode problem for a moment) your Coupe, with it's gas-flowed head makes similar performance to my Coupe with it's lightly 'tickled' head, with approx. 3 psi less boost. Making an educated guess I reckon it would make approx 415-420 bhp at it's original 1.5 bar - BTW, why was that run done at 1.35 bar instead of 1.5?? Means you can't accurately compare it to your original dyno result.

Finally it also shows what you pay for in new-tech turbo wheels and ballbearing CHRAs vs old-skool turbos; On my DD power run the ramp rate made the turbo spool more slowly than it does on the road, but even so I can see that GT32 turbo spools up a good 500 rpm quicker than my T3/T04e journal bearing.

I did notice on the 6F mode and did wonder as I'm sure I had seen elsewhere that it should be 4 something or other.

Wheel BHP was 333.6BHP

Whilst the C&B cams were expensive, there wasn't any other option around when I was doing the engine build circa 2007, otherwise I might have chosen something else, but they were £750 - £800 when I bought them.

Run at 1.35bar, no idea, both times I have the car dynoed at Surrey RR, I always find that the boost level is lower, first time was pre engine blow up, I always ran 1.4bar and on the dyno it showed 1.2 and yesterday on the road, it's always 1.5bar, but again, it was less and was 1.35bar when run on the rollers.

Just looking at your torque figure, your low down torque is really low when compared against my graph. Whilst I'm 250lbs at 3500rpm your only at 140lbs, then at 4000rpm it's 345lbs vs 165lbs, it's not until you're at 5000rpm we are then as similar levels.

Is that down to your turbo?

Ah, this means that on these respective days both our cars made exactly the same power!



Ramp rate - change in roller braking load as speed increases. The DD rollers didn't load the engine enough at low revs so the turbo spooled slower than it should have.

If you look at my original Dyno Star Printout you'll see the orange torque line is much bigger than the blue line up to approx 4.5k. The only difference between those two runs was the orange run was done at a slower ramp rate. The Dyno Star result is much closer to how the turbo spools on the road.

Ah right, didn't realise about the ramp rate. I've scanned my graphs in, so it's a bit easier to read.

Both of your graphs show the same ramp rate of 15.

Does anyone know why Surrey use such a low ramp rate? I checked with my DD guy and he reckons it should be at least 100...

RR 015 is definitely NOT standard shoot out mode 4F or 6F

RR 150 was used when I had my car on a Dyno Dynamics

You could see it was under more load than the last RR I had it on, maybe not as much load as a 4th gear pull on the road but a improvement

The different Shootout modes don't just change the ramp rate, they also change the flywheel power calculations.

On Shoot 4F and Shoot 6F the ramp rates are the same but the flywheel calculations aren't. Shoot 6F is for a 6-pot engine so a higher 'intertia factor' is added than the one used in Shoot 4F, which is for 4-pots. So you're going to get a higher flywheel reading.


Note that our wheel horsepower figures were pretty much identical - just 1 hp between them. yet Begbie's Coupe 'made' 8 bhp more than mine ATF. Why? Diffeent flywheel calulations.

I merely commented on the ramp rate KJ to note they were the same, I know all about the shootout modes.

I merely replied! No need to take offence.

Besides, most other people don't so it's useful to explain these things Part of the purpose of this thread here, is so readers can also pick up useful knowledge. Not just the people taking part in the discussion!

I didn't.

I just added to my last post while you replied

So, come on then. I'm waiting to hear why I achieved the same level of torque as kj16v, with 0.15bar less boost over a longer period?

Thing is Unfortunately because your run was done on the incorrect Shootout mode, our graphs still aren't really directly comparable with mine. The only thing we know for sure is yours made similar peak bhp with 3 psi less. To make the observations I made above I had to ignore the fact the modes were different.

Why not come down to CFM Engineering in Reading, where I first dyno'd mine. Out of all the dynos I've run my Coupe on, I think that one best simulates road conditions - the cars I tune on it make the right boost for a start. Then we can actually make a worthwhile comparison. Plus we can a ride-in in each other's cars on the real road! Afterall, that's where it really matters

PM me if your up for it.

Trouble is, nothing will be repeatable in the same conditions, unless they were both run on a chassis dyno at the same time in tandem, but that wouldn't be feasible due to cost and again, figures can be fudged.

I'd be up for it, but not for a while. Job change and a weeks holiday due in a months time.

Well offer's open Run side-by-side, no fudge

hi
I have a Lancia Delta HF 2.0 16vt from 1994

I'm current on a project with stock turbo (only for now), but I will put the material.

Intake Manifold Lancia Kappa
Gear Box Lancia Kappa
HKS blow-off valve and air filter
Exhaust 2.75 (home made)
Innovatte wideband + Turbo + oil pressure gauge
remove air conditional

Fiat Tipo N/A AJUSA 93077900 camshaft lift 10.15 dur. 234º valve timming 1-45 TDC 0.8 Running clearance 0.35

Lancia Kappa 16VT camshaft Lift 8.6 dur. 223º valve timming 0-43 TDC 0.8 Running clearance 0.38

for these cams for torque I should advance (ignition) inlet came one tooth.

what do you think?

Thanks

Hi.

So you have the Tipo cam on the inlet and Kappa cam on the exhaust? That's a unique setup so you'll have to experiment on the dyno. Start with +6 deg in, +2 deg ex and go from there.

Bare in mind though, none that is worth it unless you upgrade to a turbo capable of at least 350 bhp.

From the site
http://www.wallaceracing.com/camcalc.php

puting the cam details and the result.

Original cam's
Your cam has an Overlap of 8.00 degrees
Intake Duration of 223.00 degrees.
The Exhaust Duration is 210.00 degrees.
The Inlet Cam has an Installed Centerline of 103.50 degrees ATDC.
The exhaust cam has an Installed Centerline of 105.00 degrees BTDC
intake centraline
advanced 0.75º

Intake fiat tipo / Exhaust .Inlet lancia kappa
Your cam has an Overlap of 3.00 degrees
Intake Duration of 234.00 degrees.
The Exhaust Duration is 223.00 degrees.
The Inlet Cam has an Installed Centerline of 114.00 degrees ATDC.
The exhaust cam has an Installed Centerline of 111.50 degrees BTDC.
intake centraline
retarded -1.25º

Intake fiat tipo / Exhaust Lancia delta TA
Your cam has an Overlap of 3.00 degrees
Intake Duration of 234.00 degrees.
The Exhaust Duration is 210.00 degrees.
The Inlet Cam has an Installed Centerline of 114.00 degrees ATDC.
The exhaust cam has an Installed Centerline of 105.00 degrees BTDC.
intake centraline
retarded -4.5º

Intake fiat tipo / Exhaust inlet Lancia delta TA
Your cam has an Overlap of 11.00 degrees
Intake Duration of 234.00 degrees.
The Exhaust Duration is 223.00 degrees.
The Inlet Cam has an Installed Centerline of 114.00 degrees ATDC.
The exhaust cam has an Installed Centerline of 103.50 degrees BTDC.
intake centraline
retarded -5.25º

but I still do not know what is the best option and if will work with stock pulleys?

please help

for the turbo I have thought about the GT3170 ballbearings

I'm running the same cams as yours (but with bigger turbo)

Do you plan to use the pulleys from tipo and kappa ?

If it's not the case then you can forget about the timing given by fiat/lancia as they are ok when combined with their respective pulleys...(this should be checked for all the cams but I've already checked this for 4 cams and they all have the same plot location)

Have you got vernier pulleys?

From what I have measured, the tipo cam and intake cam from kappa on exhaust(which is the same as lancia delta integrale and fiat coupe 16v turbo) both open much earlier than stock cams.

...I just noticed I should have said -6 in and -2. Advancing the cams will be terrible!

Hi this is what I have colected from net.

Lancia Delta inlet 16VT camshaft Lift 8.6 dur. 223º valve timming 8-35 TDC 0.8 Running clearance 0.40 lob center 103.5º

Lancia Delta outlet 16VT camshaft Lift 7.5 dur. 210º valve timming 30-0 TDC 0.8 Running clearance 0.50 lob center 105º


Lancia Kappa inlet 16VT camshaft Lift 8.6 dur. 223º valve timming 0-43 TDC 0.8 Running clearance 0.38 lob center 111.5º

Lancia Kappa outlet 16VT camshaft Lift 8.6 dur. 223º valve timming 43-0 TDC 0.8 Running clearance 0.43 lob center 111.5º

Next week im planning to end a new engine with this setup:

Inlet, fiat tipo 10,15 lift
exhaust, lancia kappa 8,6 lift
adjustable pulleys
full forged engine
Twin scroll Mitsubishi EVO 9 TURBO.

If im lucky ill be at the dyno in 2-3 weeks, adjusting the pulleys.

Cheers.

Does anyone know, if we have to change the head gasket to a bigger height to install the tipo camshaft?

I'm afraid that the valves reaches (damage) the pistons.

any comnnent?

thanks

Don't worry, the valves won't come anywhere near the pistons!

I'm running an 1.15mm head gasket with tipo cam (retarded 5 cam degrees) and there's lot of room between piston and valve