Fiat Coupe Club UK
2.4 or not ???
Posted By: Anonymous
2.4 or not ??? - 25/06/2006 04:41
as my bag of shite, aka the coop is dead , eg : 0 bar at idle, I have decided on several things :
A) I set fire to it & be done
B) drop it off at said "un-shagged-engine-doc" & see what the score is
C) sell my organs & then consider a brain swap with the geezer in Opt B
or...........bore the fuckka out & be done.......but alas, I am gonna be a guinea pig ( of sorts ) & attempt to run the italian shite-hawk using a large AFM
cost = don't consider my path of woe.......I haven't driven the thing for over 2 months, partially cos' it's heart is FUBAR......
so, what U lot reckon
personally, opt "A" is a winner
yours........
Dr FUBAR
Posted By: Saint
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 25/06/2006 04:45
Option A seems to be an International "fix it" that most coupe owners have thought about
If your going to go - go big I reckon - it's only money
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 25/06/2006 04:46
.....now where did I put them matches !
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 25/06/2006 06:28
I would honestly see about teh fergie and nigel style and go for forged internals and suchlike and lighten everything up...
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 25/06/2006 06:29
2.6.....
Posted By: Freddan72
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 25/06/2006 07:57
Is it really possible to take a 2.4 litre from a Stilo Abarth and mount it into the Coupe? Any big changes with engine mounts etc?
P.S don´t burn it
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 25/06/2006 12:27
2.4 is done by boring out the original engine Freddan
Taz, personally you have/had a gorgeous car to look at, but given the choice of a 10k 2.4 or a box of matches the matches would win. time to move on to pastures new
Posted By: Fishy_Dave
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 25/06/2006 14:54
Quote:
2.4 is done by boring out the original engine Freddan
Is it? I thought it used the bottom end of the 2.4 block?
Your car is known everywhere for being the most clean and blinging Coupe Taz. I've only seen it once, but it looked great. It's worth spending a bit of money on it, using it for a bit longer and selling on if you need to. 2.4 if you have deep pockets, if not then just go for a rebuild or get a second hand engine (like I did ).
The money you get after torching it would be low, and certainly not reflective of the effort and money you have put into it.
Apart from the fact the engine is knackered, does anything else need replacing?
Posted By: paul
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 25/06/2006 15:08
Give it to me
or...............................2.4 /2.5 it !!......................it` s the only answer,well for me anyway as thats my next step.
only other real option is get it sorted and sell it,but you will miss it.
what else are you gonna buy ? ......that gives you so much pleasure/grief
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 25/06/2006 17:02
Quote:
Quote:
2.4 is done by boring out the original engine Freddan
Is it? I thought it used the bottom end of the 2.4 block?
sorry shouldn't post so early in the morning. now you said that, maybe it is the 2.4 abarth block. remember another thread on the old forum about max overbore of 2.2 or something.
Posted By: Begbie
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 25/06/2006 17:07
Quote:
2.6.....
And do you realise the cost of getting the crank made to be able to take a 2.6? Not cheap to say the least.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 25/06/2006 17:09
taz must have spent more on chrome than most people in here would spend on maintenance
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 25/06/2006 21:59
2600 euro (about 2 grand sterling) for my custom made billet crank.Its for my 2 litre turbo engine project.They aibt cheap but they are damn well worth it.Thats all I will say.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 25/06/2006 22:44
hmm, mixed opinions...
after speaking to the engine doc, I was going to replace all the internals "anyway" with all forged bits, as a leak down test about 1yr ago revealed less than perfect piston rings, so I bought forged rods, pistons & a BIG BIG valve head with 3 angle seats & ported ( lightly to remove casting marks ).
But from what I think has happened, it may already be too late to salvage the crank, we'll see
but If the crank is ok, then the cost of a rebuld will only be a tad less than a 2.4 ( noting that I won't use a motec, but use the OEM ECU, worked out how to do this, but this is an experiment ).
as for other bits, fuel pump, my own modded wishbones, new rear arb, a few pipes, F40'ish front brakes, new master cyl, OE hoses, small tweaks of the suspension....
basically a weeks work
as I've paid for all the other bits ( almost ) barring the engine, I've got just an engine to do ( I could skimp & get a used unknown history, but can't do this, I'm the only owner
).
...maybe torching it is a good idea !
( not that i'd really condone that sort of thing
)
Posted By: paul
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 25/06/2006 23:12
you have got most of it bought already ......get it done,stop f*nny`ing around......you`ll soon be as bad as me
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 25/06/2006 23:18
Quote:
2600 euro (about 2 grand sterling) for my custom made billet crank.Its for my 2 litre turbo engine project.They aibt cheap but they are damn well worth it.Thats all I will say.
I bet you can rev the balls off it now Pat!! 9k rev limit??
Taz just get a nice 2.0ltr rebuild and have the block chromed on the out sid - hell I dont know if thats possible
rich
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 25/06/2006 23:29
Hmmm regrind or get another crank, i know iceberg has one or two and give it a clean up??
Posted By: Freddan72
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 26/06/2006 00:57
What I tried to say was, it is possible to buy a engine from a Stilo Abarth 2.4 litre and put in a Coupe without too much hassle? Maybe you could also turbocharge the engine. That would be pretty great
Posted By: paul
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 26/06/2006 02:18
on a more serious note,you have decide want you want to do with it,2.4 will be great fun,but will be V costly,is your heart still in the coupe ?.....if not really, get her fixed and start driving it again .......remember it IS summer if you aint enjoying it now ,you never will.....so sell here.
At times I HATE mines too,but I can`t see me being without it ........yet
,and i still drive mine everyday,as our cars get old, keeping them up to scratch(and better than) is expensive..............and never ending,so when do you stop..........I reckon it`s when you can`t be bothered to drive it anymore,or when it`s `little quirks` become a REAL pain in tha ass
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 26/06/2006 02:45
I already know
we will see when it's in bits......it owes me nothing, is worth nothing & at the moment is fast as nothing
still it's a FIAT, worth at the moment.......nothing
gotta laugh in the face of.....a hefty bill
only money
options are open
but am disappointed that I looked afer it & it has blown up whilst stationary
such is life
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 26/06/2006 02:54
Ditto the feelings Taz, if anything once all this is done with my coop i can safely say teh 6.5k guaranteed valuation on it will be well worth it if not a true reflection of whats been done to it lol
I can say that mine still moves at the minute but not very fast or well so wont be run again untill shes sorted, gotta bea record though, about 1k on a new set of belts and nice rebuild on the 5th cylinder!
To be honest taz we love our cars very much you and i so if you got the money and plan to do what i do shell it out, if it comes to it again you can wash the bits in the dishwasher again
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 26/06/2006 03:03
........got a pack full of finish tabs at the ready mate
it'll breathe fire soon, one way or another
Posted By: Begbie
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 26/06/2006 03:06
Quote:
What I tried to say was, it is possible to buy a engine from a Stilo Abarth 2.4 litre and put in a Coupe without too much hassle? Maybe you could also turbocharge the engine. That would be pretty great
Not possible, the stilo block is too tall and will foul on the bonnet
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 26/06/2006 03:07
Unless he goes for a nice bonnet bulge
But i do think it would spoil the lines and not be very good for airflow at higher speeds...
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 26/06/2006 03:53
8200 rev limit,thats all.
Also a nice hybrid Garrett GT 30/35 hybrid bolted on will be good for around 500bhp.The turbo is nice and big,but suits the engine and its build/spec well.
Car will still be road car but good for some track abuse.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 26/06/2006 03:54
Custom fabricated engine mounts to drop the engine lower in the engine bay.Also lowers the centre of gravity and gives a better handling car too.then the bonnet will close.Simple really.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 26/06/2006 13:51
2.4 is stroked not bored so you will need a new crank, as the Stilo one is not forged it will snap with that power. Also let me tell you no matter how good you are the standard ECU is not good enough to contol that kind of build (not enough fuelling points). Anyway good luck!
Posted By: Begbie
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 26/06/2006 14:11
Quote:
Custom fabricated engine mounts to drop the engine lower in the engine bay.Also lowers the centre of gravity and gives a better handling car too.then the bonnet will close.Simple really.
Why would you want to do that for? Cost a fair bit to make custom mounts when you can still use the original block to do the 2.4 with Was just stating that there is no point in fitting the 2.4 block
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 26/06/2006 19:13
Thought it was exactly the same block with slightly different volume...
What for the stilo blocks are higher when you can have 2.4 with the coupe blocks
Posted By: Begbie
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 26/06/2006 19:33
No the stilo block is taller by X amount. I think there are subtle differences, but i cant quite remember, and the bits i can remember im not going to announce as this is down to Barbz
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 26/06/2006 23:49
Before you so smartly use the
emoticon please re-read my post to answer your question of why?.Thanks.
Theres always a way of fitting it,you just gotta use a bit of imagination and determination.
Oh and custom made engine mounts arent that expensive.They are just machined from an aluminium or steel slug/blank.This doesnt cost that much.
You might not do things like this,but others do.
Just think of it that way.Anything is possible if you just use your imagination and a bit of determination.It can be done.
Posted By: Begbie
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 27/06/2006 00:11
So lowering the block by 6cm is going to make that much of difference with the CoG? Please show me evidence of what difference 6cm makes.
Then you also run into problems of the sump / downpipe being closer to the floor, then you also have to worry about the inner driveshafts (both sides) catching / sitting on the subframe, so then have to customise the front subframe to be able to clear the driveshafts, then boost hoses, water hoses, gearbox linkages, slave cylinder hoses etc...
Quote:
You might not do things like this,but others do.
So its really cost vs functionality, cost of lowering an engine by 6cm vs something that wont make much difference, i know which i will choose thanks very much
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 27/06/2006 00:12
but if you lower the engine changes are the sump and down pipe will run a bit close to either the ground or the sub frame or each other. Personally I think a bonnet bulgde could be hidden quite well, if you look at the LMA eurosaloons site at tony Soper's GTV you cant easily tell from the bics but tha bonnet is a few inches higher throughout the midle as it has been built up in fibre glass in the middle to clear the throttle bodies, Anyway this is all talk really I cant see anyone really doing this.
rich
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 27/06/2006 13:11
Lowering the engine will do the driveshaft angles few favour - we raised the engine in the kappa, then dropped the rest of the car back down so the engine was in the same place relative to the ground (as are the hub centres), but the rest of the car is lower
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 27/06/2006 18:30
Taz - you could always look out for a 2nd hand engine mate? Assuming you're in no major hurry to get the car back on the road?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 28/06/2006 02:24
cheers Suba, not sounding snobbish, but I can never trust a 2nd hand engine,considering the cost etc, mine was one owner & still fell to bits...
either it'll be uprated / scrapped
no other choice.
Posted By: JohnS
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 29/06/2006 03:41
half the point of the 2.4 & 2.5 conversions Barbz does is that you don't need to source a Stilo abarth or Kappa block as the conversion uses the original 2.0 20VT block. So the fitting of the block is no issue as it is still a 20VT
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 29/06/2006 15:22
fair enough - I came to the same conclusion a while back mate.... good luck.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 03/07/2006 04:52
decision made, lots of bits soon for sale,
NEW GT28R turbo, block, head, 2.5" custom downpipe, front calipers, discs, uprated rad, poss side mount IC.....
only money
few other bits I cannot recall....
spent a lot of time thinking about it.......I'll never recoup my dosh & waste of time torching it, & don't want to let it go ( yet )
cheers
Taz
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 03/07/2006 05:57
And the decision was
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 03/07/2006 15:28
Taz , bet you're going for a 2.6......
I didn't think that particular love affair was quite ready to end
joe
Posted By: paul
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 03/07/2006 15:30
Quote:
decision made, lots of bits soon for sale,
NEW GT28R turbo, block, head, 2.5" custom downpipe, front calipers, discs, uprated rad, poss side mount IC.....
only money
few other bits I cannot recall....
spent a lot of time thinking about it.......I'll never recoup my dosh & waste of time torching it, & don't want to let it go ( yet )
cheers
Taz
would these be standard front brake bits for sale or `fancy` big RED affairs ?
Posted By: Flea
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 04/07/2006 04:12
If we are on the same page Taz, I have thought about doing this with the 2 litre and bigger injectors
If it works for the VAG boys then no reason we can't do it on the coupé
Posted By: Stichl
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 04/07/2006 11:30
Quote:
Quote:
oddly enough, I talked at length aboutr the ECU probs, as I want to keep my OE ECU & cannot see the gain in spending 10K on a motec.
Barbz actually noted the FIAT ECU is miles better than the Motec & actually can adapt quicker, it's just that the mapping is difficult as nobody has really looked into it..
but I have a plan 
Taz
Well I’ll tell you what I found when trying to use my original ECU. There are not enough fuelling points within the map itself. Which means you can only change a certain amount of points within the rpm range can't remember the number as it all has to add up to complete the map. Meaning that you could map the car perfect through the mid and top end of the rev range but as you have run out of fuelling points the low end/idle will run very lumpy and visa versa. This in my opinion is a dangerous risk to take for a highly modded engine that requires precision engine management. The parameters within the original Fiat map just doesn’t let you push the engine to it's full potential especially as it would still require you to use an AFM and barometer which is a very inaccurate way of measuring pressure/air flow. If you have found a way of doing this then I would be very shocked as I feel the electronics hardware are not good enough no matter what software and mapper you use. Hope this info helps.
This answer is partially correct, only.
The original ECU is capable to handle more than 400 HP. You will have one limiting factor, only - the AFM.
The original AFM will limit at about 850kg/h air – this is good for about 310HP. Therefore the ECU will see 5V only from AFM, if reaching high revs with more than 310HP…
Therefore the ECU cannot adjust the amount of fuel correctly...
There is one possibility to avoid this problem – take a bigger AFM – for example Bosch 0 280 217 801. This AFM will be capable to handle about 450HP.
You will have one problem – you have to remap the original ECU completely – this is a lot of work – but you will see, that you can reach 450HP with original ECU as well…
PS: In Germany there is one coupe with 460HP and original ECU + bigger AFM.
My coupe (397HP) has the original ECU installed as well – but I have problems with WOT because of the limiting original AFM – therefore I will try a bigger AFM as well
Juergen
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 05/07/2006 04:29
That sounds plausible but I would still go for a stand alone unit as the cost of doing this may still work out more expensive. UNLESS you are mapping the car yourself to write a map from scratch will cost a lot of time in labour. The original Fiat map will probably only have about 30% scope within the parameters set, as were talking about serious power the map would have to be fully re-written from scratch costing est below:
1) Brand new compatible AFM as suggested est £200
2) Compatible fuel injectors that can flow over 450BHP £?
3) Software to rewrite map to Fiat coupe £250
4) At least 5 hours mapping to write a complete map £450
TOTAL COST £900+
A good Standalone ECU starts from £700
It's still not going to be as good as a standalone unit and there are no guarantees that it will work and even if it does I don’t feel it will be very accurate at control vital levels such as boost and fuelling etc. If it really was that simple and cost effective wouldn't everyone be doing this? Anyway I hope you can prove me wrong but I will say good luck.
Posted By: JohnS
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 05/07/2006 13:22
I can't think of a good standalone ECU for £700 that can support 5 cylinder sequential injection with a coilpack per cylinder. Let alone one with a range of reputable dealers to support it.
With a standalone ECU most of the money is involved in setting it up. Aside from Motec there are very few ECUs that can support our engines and have a decent range of dealer support. Maybe the Pectel T6 has enough support or one of the AEM ecus.
Using a different MAF then even if the ECU doesn't have enough breakpoints (and I think it does) there are other ways to overcome this problem - if you look at the Cossies/16VT/integrales' Weber set up they have nothing like the flexibility of our ECU yet they are able to remap them to 500BHP+
I personally know exactly how I would sort out the fuelling and ignition advance issues without using an aftermarket ECU. Even though I did that was more down to time than anything else/
John
Posted By: Begbie
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 05/07/2006 14:19
Quote:
if you look at the Cossies/16VT/integrales' Weber set up they have nothing like the flexibility of our ECU yet they are able to remap them to 500BHP+
Well with only 16rpm breakpoints and the fact it cant read over 7500rpm+ makes the option of going to standalone ECU a easy decision
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 05/07/2006 15:12
At PTS I looked at changing the fuelling and ignition maps to run with bigger injectors, and if you are going to do this, then it is also easy to run with a bigger AFM.
If you match the AFM size with the injectors, you may not be a million miles away with the actual map.... (aside from a few other bits and bobs)
However as said above its the time and cost involved.
The cheapest way would probably be the next generation Unichip with separate support for injectors plus Maf support , but I don't know if its even available in the UK yet.
Agree with Jeurgen, I find my MAF maxxes out about 300bhp or so.
joe
Posted By: JohnS
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 05/07/2006 16:35
When i first ran my 2.4 on the standard ECU the airflow meter was out of range by about 3400rpm or something stupid like that. I was only running 0.6 bar boost as well.
We did get my car fuelling relatively ok on a std ECU with grale injectors temporarily when I had to do TOTB3 qualifying - made a 13.4s pass on 0.8 bar boost if I remember correctly. That was without even remapping the Unichip that I was using at the time.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 05/07/2006 17:13
Quote:
I can't think of a good standalone ECU for £700 that can support 5 cylinder sequential injection with a coilpack per cylinder. Let alone one with a range of reputable dealers to support it.
I can i got my DTA P8 PRO for £650 this supprots everything and is a great managment for the 20V Turbo.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 05/07/2006 17:24
You can buy a VEMS 3.3 for about £450. Backside would be that there's no official support/reseller that can help you out. Even though I think the Wiki community seems to work quite well for most people.
Afterall it's a cheap and very powerful management system with great potential since you can continue to develop the unit (both HW and SW).
Posted By: JohnS
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 05/07/2006 18:43
Quote:
Quote:
I can't think of a good standalone ECU for £700 that can support 5 cylinder sequential injection with a coilpack per cylinder. Let alone one with a range of reputable dealers to support it.
I can i got my DTA P8 PRO for £650 this supprots everything and is a great managment for the 20V Turbo.
Yeah fair enough the DTA P8 does support everything you need more or less. The cold start would never be as good as OE as it is an arbitrary compensation rather than a whole seperate map of differences and a seperate throttle position map, but that is actually a weakness of most aftermarket engine management systems. The effect is just that it's possibly a bit lumpy and a bit on/off until the coolant is at a given preset temperature.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 06/07/2006 03:57
well, we'll see what happens guys.
Thanks for the input as i really am looking at matching a MUCH larger AFM to the engine, this should keep all in proportion, but then again, this is a bit of an experiment
either way, we'll find out in a few short weeks
so will my wallet
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 18/08/2006 03:07
quick update, well, for those that may be interested....
hmm..... lots of choices & it actually looks a bit daunting....
prob is the engine will be too much for the coop.....
brakes are now being made up ( F40 calipers ) as the OE that I have, with Pagids are good, but won't cut it....
clutch.....this could be a real pain, I may have to go for a double type, or a costly single plate unsprung....not too keen & bit of research is still needed, as I REALLY REALLY want a big block coop, that CAN actually pootle about town, surely this IS the goal of a GOOD conversion
basic build of the block is now going ahead, but alas, the Manifold is going to be a major Mission to overcome, I may even see if one of the bods at work can make up a standard carbon steel tubular one ( stainless will just workharden then fall to bits ).
then we have the ECU, in theory it should work, but I've been told I may have to DTA / Motec budget it.....
Barbz did even try to convince me to go back to a tuned 2.0l lump, I thought for it for a millisecon, then thought....
you only live once & I'll always regret it if I never go ahead.......so fcuuk it...
let the games begin.
....well that is once CP pistons send the correct ones !!
I won't even go into the front / rear subframe mods, seam welding & bushes, engine mounts etc
oh dear, the cost is not looking good
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 18/08/2006 03:19
you just know this will end in tears, get the box of matches ready
Posted By: paul
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 18/08/2006 03:22
hhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmm chin up Taz,we all go thro` this half way thro a big budget mod session (and a 2.4 is about as big as it gets
),I`m actually writing a list of what needs done on my coupe during the winter(now i`ve bought a 2nd car)upgraded gt28rs(modified by Barbz),ditch V Band,maybe try to hard pipe the bigger boost hoses,bigger injectors....so long as they are not a pig in traffic, remap,and anything else that can be done to squeeze more (reliable and useable)power out of my 2 ltr lump,I seriously thought about going 2.4 (still not given it up) but I spent a fair bit on forged pistons, balancing,headwork ,etc. etc.and it has all proved very reliable.............genius that Barbz man
it seems a shame to change it all again before I fully explore what I`ve got,so I will `invest` some money on new engine/gearbox mounts,driveshafts.and bigger front brakes too............so stick with it...ya know ya want too
.....................oh and you can let Barbz know he will be seeing my car again fairly soon
Posted By: Jimbo
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 18/08/2006 04:24
Quote:
I still reckon if i sold the crap heap, I really really wouldn't know what else to buy
Well with the money your spending on it you could buy pretty much anything !!
Think I'd be thumming my way through some TVR brochures if I was you
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 18/08/2006 15:13
Quote:
clutch.....this could be a real pain, I may have to go for a double type, or a costly single plate unsprung....not too keen & bit of research is still needed, as I REALLY REALLY want a big block coop, that CAN actually pootle about town, surely this IS the goal of a GOOD conversion
Exactly , this has been my main stumbling block for me as well.
I've driven several paddle clutched Coupes now, and reports about the twin plate clutch suggest its a lot less useable than the paddle!.
I really like driving a 360-370bhp Coupe that can idle sweetly and potter around in traffic , makes the car feel more classy.
Please share your thoughts when the time comes, what you really need is a far higher diameter drive plate with friction material towards the outer part, or a stronger pressure plate, but maybe bigger master/slaves to offset the extra pedal pressure ?
good luck Taz!
joe
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 18/08/2006 15:36
....Or buy a GTR and spend a few grand for 500bhp that's not even pushing the engine.
I've thought about options for my coop in say....6 months, and I have to say getting more out of my 2lr is going to prove really expensive without going to a 2.4 / 2.5, and it's not like the value of the car goes up with the work. If I decide I want much more power then it'll be time to move on for me.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 16/10/2006 18:39
just to revive this "old" thread, amazing what gets posted in between
finally got round to having a 20 - 30 min drive in Barbz mota yesterday in sunny Kent.
impressions ?
Veryh smooth, considering its running only base boost, as he#s till running it in......so only pottling up to about 4.5k on mineral oil, to aid ring bedding in.
at 0.75bar, it still pulls like something that my coop can barely match at 1.4bar on my GT28R
the clutch....mixed impressions really.
VERY VERY slick conversion for a twin plate helix paddle clutch. Sure there is a tiny bit of judder below 2K if you don't give it enough reve, mainly because it GRIPS like a GORILLA
The only reservation & I mean "minor" is the heavy pedal, but not much can be done, at a guess, it's about 2.5times as heavy as the OEM clutch.....but still very easy to use, no fuss with shifting up / down, at any speed / in traffic.
very smooth action & I was used to driving it after about 10 mins, considering he has the quick shift conversion ( which I've never used before ).
Power delivery, well, hard to gauge, as because the coop is on base boost ( eg, the wastegate is basically loose ), his partuclar turbo, a GT30 0.80comp & 0.86tur give a little laggy impresssion, boost doesn't come in till 3.5k, but it does shift well before that, you canreally feel the extra 0.5l of extra shove off boost....very driveable, so much so, you can pull away in sixth almost from standstill
I would love to have another go when it's bedded in & up to 1.6bar again....
so, my choices......well, I am going for the same turbo, but with a smaller turbine housing to give me more lower down punch at a small sacrifice at top end......and let's face it, I am not really going to try to use it at 9k ( which it will be easily good for ) given that he has removed the balancer shafts ! In fact it gets smoother the more you rev it !, but I could only occasionally blip it to 5k
clutch you ask ? Well for now, I am going to try a more conventional single plate paddle sprung helix cerematallic for now & see what we can get out of the dog...i'm expecting circa 410 - 430 bhp...
the clutch should take this......although the twin plate will cope with 600
Now it's booked in, the fun begins.
The OEM ECU will still be tried in my coop as a guineapig, with a MAP ECU overlaid to see what we get....watch this space
Taz
Posted By: TurboNick
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 16/10/2006 19:28
hey taz if you dont mind me asking how much is that costing ya? for the 2.4 conversion? cheers. i went it barbz car b4 the engine blew and my god! its fccuking fast! scary fast! lol loved every second of it tho!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 16/10/2006 19:44
ten grand
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 16/10/2006 20:13
yup, bout that
I'll make a "small" amount back
, as I'm gonna sell my new GT28R, bits of the old engine that are salvageable, the head & a few other bits.
it is a lot of money, but why not, only live once
anyways, am bout to purchase another car soon & it ain't a coop
Taz
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 16/10/2006 20:50
A diesel at all Taz?
Posted By: TurboNick
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 17/10/2006 01:11
s**t man was thinkin bout 2.4 but doubt it now wouldnt spend that much no way, only if i win the lottery
lol
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 04/11/2006 18:50
......well let the games begin
just had another spin in the 2.4 at 1.1bar, fcuuk......
no other coop i've been / seen even comes close to the rawness Barbz produces....I was actually chaning up at 5.5k, Barbz said he rarely changes up at less than 7.5K
ferocious, yet docile.
I'm going for a tad smaller than a GT30, something with a 0.64 housing, comp trim of about 0.76 I think.....should give good 2.5K - 6K power band...still good for 1.8bar.
Even Barbz mota at 1.1bar is frightening, the roads are just too small, yet he has had it up to 1.5 - 1.8
so...2-3 weeks & mine will emerge from its cocoon
Taz
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 23/11/2006 01:42
well, coop is now in bits
have no idea how to put her back together again
oh well, gotta scrap it
only joking ( or am I ? )
on a side note, I am getting the final "remote oil filter" kit made up this week, so hopefully Think auto should offer this as a kit.
Point to note, the issue of tighening the 2 off hoses from the original oil filter location can be overcome by fitting the hoses first, then attacking the take off plate
oh.........
anybody want to buy a 2.5" downpipe & GT28R turbo ?
need to shift
infact, maybe my whole 2.5" system will be up for grabs soon
also on another sidenote, am looking into protecting the cambelt ( I know, a long time ago, Burnsy looked at this ) , but on the higer powered motors, the aux belts simply streches, then falls off, hence we may have to go for a modded toothed belt
( oh, more headaches ! )
Taz
Posted By: OO7
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 23/11/2006 01:49
P.M. sent about exhaust and turbo.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 23/11/2006 02:08
Ask Rog about teh protection plate he was looking into making up and maybe making one up instead rog
Posted By: OO7
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 23/11/2006 04:02
Taz, P.M. box full. P.M. me when clear so I can send you revised offer
.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 27/11/2006 21:28
Taz was right - I did look into making a plate to effectively prevent the aux belt snarling on the crank cam belt area.
I gave the template the the chap who bought my car off me some months ago.
Matt Lawrence was his name forum member #1757.
If you want to get a copy of the template drawing I made, I'd drop him a line.
Nice chap (unfortunately he had nothing but bad luck with my car)
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 29/11/2006 20:20
Did you manage to tack it down lads?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 30/11/2006 01:26
No Matt
it's ok, we came up with another idea, took a bit of head scratching, but it builds on the original idea of using a plate to deflect the aux belt from the cambelt.
A certain person is having the prototype fitted, but this still doesn't cure the cause, that the aux belt may be strething under the rapid acceleration of the engine
a solution is avail, but it requires some machine work on the OEM pulleys.
good to see you still hovering about geez. I'm amazed I've kept my rust bucket, wot you driving now Matt ? Porsche ?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 30/11/2006 01:35
is the solution a toothed belt at all?
What happens if you turn the alternator off so its not drawing any load from the belt and thus want be trying to slow it down as i would suspect that to be the main cause of the belt being slow to spin up and thus slipping other than the AC mind as the PAS pump does take much power compared to the others.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 30/11/2006 01:52
......looked at a toothed belt, but it's a LOT of work Will, plus the other area is that you then shift the weak point ( possibly ) to the A/C belt.
It could be this is an isolated case, as Mavric & JohnS, haven't suffered with this phenomenon with belts coming off, so maybe a tensioner is bent
we'll see what happens
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 30/11/2006 01:59
Mavrics belt did snap though did it not?? im sure i recall at one meet just as he got on the M6 the belt went POP....
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 30/11/2006 02:00
Shifting the weak point is better as if the aux belt goes its got less chance of taking the cambelt out and is easier to isolate as well with just a plate
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 30/11/2006 02:03
Quote:
Mavrics belt did snap though did it not?? im sure i recall at one meet just as he got on the M6 the belt went POP....
...went pop cos' it was old & cracked up, never kept an eye on it IIRC
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 30/11/2006 02:15
Cost him a cambelt if i remember correctly!!1
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 30/11/2006 02:29
I thought it had done less than its change interval to be hnest but he never posted up what happened... I know JohnS hasnt gone(that we know of) but he is pushing less power as wlel.
Posted By: JohnS
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 30/11/2006 04:12
as far as I know I'm running almost the same power at the wheels or within 5% of and I've not had the problem. Could easily be a dodgy tensioner though from Fiat.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 30/11/2006 04:15
I guess so John, it does seem to be a one off, so we'll see
I just want my coop back
it's slowly taking shape, but I don't mind as Barbz is doing the business as usual
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 30/11/2006 04:20
what's wrong with a timing chain?
spending that amount of money on an engine, if this is at all possible, it has got to be worth a look.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 30/11/2006 05:56
No-one has looked into one IIRC. it would be a nice mod but would mean a new solid casing would have to be made to encase it and all the grease within it as well.
Ive never heard of a chain going but guess it can still happen...
Posted By: JohnS
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 30/11/2006 14:36
chains do stretch, even cars with chain driven cams require a chain change. The belt is the right approach I think it is just that it isn't executed well enough perhaps.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 30/11/2006 14:43
Quote:
No-one has looked into one IIRC. it would be a nice mod but would mean a new solid casing would have to be made to encase it and all the grease within it as well.
Ive never heard of a chain going but guess it can still happen...
My dads micra chain snapped after 60k.
Ross
Posted By: JohnS
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 30/11/2006 14:44
Quote:
My dads micra chain snapped after 60k.
But he was putting out just shy of 800BHP
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 30/11/2006 15:10
Well there is a 330bhp micra with pulsar engine up here.
Ross
Posted By: paul
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 30/11/2006 18:18
I know i`ve raced it
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 30/11/2006 18:35
Beat ya if i remember correctly?
Ross
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 01/12/2006 15:17
Hi Taz (& JohnS)
Yep still float about from time to time and post the odd "Hello" now and again.
I've got an old 911 Carrera 2 (no 4 wheel drive pussy stuff for me thanks). The instant grunt from the 3.6 is quite nice but I still miss my Coupe.
As for the belt issue. I feel that the aux belt issue is one that is not taken as serious as it should be (IMHO) coz my one managed to foul the crank cam pulley but without actually breaking. Strands of it got caught in between the cambelt and the crank pulley and drew more of the aux belt into it until it stripped about 20% of it.
The sum effect was to allow the cambelt to slip four (or so) notches which took out half of my valves.
The idea I had was a simple one.
It was to press some 20swg stainless into a shape that would fit the profile of the back of the aux belt pulley (which from memory it’s out 4 times larger than the crank cambelt pulley) and cut into a disc that is about 2 inches larger in diameter than the aux pulley.
This then leaves a spinning disk (rotating at the same speed as the crank) which acts as a barrier to prevent the cambelt from picking up any element or loose strands from the aux belt and prevent a potential broken belt from being drawn in between the crank cambelt pulley and the cambelt itself preventing any fouling and protecting the top end of the engine from terminal damage.
You would have to cut a small area of the cambelt cover to accommodate it but it would prove an invaluable, cheep and easy to fit “ease of mind” mod.
Any thought?
Cheers
Matthew
Posted By: paul
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 01/12/2006 15:33
Quote:
Beat ya if i remember correctly?
Ross
sure did.............but err would like a re -try thanks,when it came up behind at about 70` ish ,I thought yup micra didn`t even bother to change down from 5th,so `maybe` with having a bit of previous,I`ll be ready next time....................but it`s a bloody quick car,so not saying the outcome would be any different.
Hi Burnsy, how are you ?,you pm`d me a while back ,just an empty pm ,,ment to get back to you to ask what it was supposed to contain,but not been on her much myself,so errr forgot,sorry....................911, now there`s a nice car,I really like the new`ish 997,just bought a new business this year so all going well,maybe next year
Posted By: Flea
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 01/12/2006 16:07
Burnsy, that sounds very similar to what Barbz has just had machined so while it won't stop my car throwing belts it will at least offer some protection if it does!! I am sure there is a logical reason for why I have lost 3 aux belts in 2 weeks but it must be said that I have been lucky to escape without a cambelt disaster.
Posted By: JohnS
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 01/12/2006 16:12
Good to hear from you Burnsy!! Can't imagine your Porker lasting long the way you drive
That does sound like a good solution to the problem if the belt goes. With your design would it actually bolt onto the 6 studs or however many it is that the aux pulley is retained with?
I think the other problem is around the tensioner and ensuring the tension is always correct so the belt doesn't go in the first place (short of some external fouling).
Fiat redesigned the whole thing on the Stilo Abarths, and the aircon pump sits underneath the alternator. But it would be prohibitively expensive to swap the mounts, alternator, aircon pump etc. which would be required to make use of the new system.
I had my aux belt go on the stilo and it did not foul the timing belt. Not sure if that was luck or the different design
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 01/12/2006 21:48
JohnS & PaulS
Hopefully the Porsche will be up to the challenge and live to tell the tail but I do not think that she will be concours by the time I've finished playing.
She may even end up being a track car - that way I don't have to worry about stne chips and
tw@ts opening their car doors on her.
I went for the 911 I fell in love with as a teenager - the 911 Carrera 2 3.6 Targa (964 version) and she is like a little tractor - agreculteral but effective.
John - Yes the disc I proposed simply fits between the aux pully and the crank pully using the holes in the aux pully to allow the aux fitting bolts to clamp it in place.
You could always fit one of those spring tensioners so that the aux belt would be under constant tension and give due allowance for pulling tension etc upon acceleration.
Anyway - glad to hear you guys are all well.
take care
Burnsy
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 01/12/2006 22:15
Quote:
Quote:
Beat ya if i remember correctly?
Ross
sure did.............but err would like a re -try thanks,when it came up behind at about 70` ish ,I thought yup micra didn`t even bother to change down from 5th,so `maybe` with having a bit of previous,I`ll be ready next time....................but it`s a bloody quick car,so not saying the outcome would be any different.
Hi Burnsy, how are you ?,you pm`d me a while back ,just an empty pm ,,ment to get back to you to ask what it was supposed to contain,but not been on her much myself,so errr forgot,sorry....................911, now there`s a nice car,I really like the new`ish 997,just bought a new business this year so all going well,maybe next year
Im just windin ya up !! That thing is killing everything up here the now due to the power to weight. Its like 450bhp per tonne or something.
Ross
Quote:
Im just windin ya up !! That thing is killing everything up here the now due to the power to weight. Its like 450bhp per tonne or something.
Ross
Can someone not just beat it a Nissan Micra
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 01/12/2006 22:35
Its a micra with a pulsar engine and running gear. Basically a lightweight 4wd weapon!!
Ross
I know its just the name Micra and its brings horrible images to my head, perhaps when he is not looking just take the badges off then it will all be ok
Posted By: Begbie
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 01/12/2006 22:53
Quote:
Its a micra with a pulsar engine and running gear. Basically a lightweight 4wd weapon!!
Ross
Err... if it is red and won the USC in scotland, i think you will find it is FWD!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 01/12/2006 23:04
Nissan K11 Micra (March) - SR20DE+T Powered
AKA 'Little Bandit'
12.18 @ 126.8 mph and a little grip!!!
665kgs & 393.5 HP...you do the math!!!
Thats the stats. Think it is fwd!
Ross
Posted By: Flea
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 01/12/2006 23:22
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 02/12/2006 00:01
Quote:
Fiat redesigned the whole thing on the Stilo Abarths, and the aircon pump sits underneath the alternator. But it would be prohibitively expensive to swap the mounts, alternator, aircon pump etc. which would be required to make use of the new system.
I had my aux belt go on the stilo and it did not foul the timing belt. Not sure if that was luck or the different design
Interesting, been watching this thread and trying not to have nightmares! But maybe mine are unnecessary as the kappa must have a different belt - the alternator is on the back of the engine, not the front. Causes us problems every time we dropped another (Fiat origin) engine as we have to change over all the bits to the kappa ones
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 02/12/2006 01:39
Trev, you should be ok matey, this looks like another feature of the 20VT engine
Yeah, Flea is trying a prototype that I discussed with the Magician, which uses a VERY similar principle to Burnsys, except that the disc is press fitted to the OEM pulley, the reason being that I had a vile thought that to sandwich a plate at the cambelt end would end up causing a "slight" misaligment with the tensioner & then the power steering pulley, which in the end would cause heating & failure. Thus we have gone slightly lateral in thinking
It Still will not cure the static load placed on this belt, but WILL / hopefully prevent cambelt failure if the aux belt goes to shit.
All we need to do now, possibly, is to spring load the tensioner, such that is has some "take-up" under VERY heavy power / acceleration demands.
still looking for a bolt on solution, making my head itch
.....we'll get there, bit like the remote oil filter kit ( almost ready to roll
)
cheers
Taz
Posted By: Flea
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 02/12/2006 04:53
Nice one Taz
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 02/12/2006 07:01
How about the tensioner from a PSA XUD9TE or XUD11BTE engine?
The cambelt tensioner is quite strong from what i saw of the one on our 2.1 so should apply more than enough force to keep it down
I think its £15-20 from GSF as well
Failing that time to make up a chain maybe
Posted By: paul
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 04/12/2006 17:50
Quote:
This one?
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/ee4010d0-5b9f-466f-9a46-afd5d477d979.htm
Damn thing only has a battery in the back
yup thats the one and thats the same piece of road too................you can imagine the scene,I cruise past a line of traffic,middle of which I see a plain red *icra (sedici I can`t say that word either ) but do notice it has a short stubby exhaust on it,1/2 mile along the road I`m held up by traffic and the *icra is behind me, the traffic clears I stay out and get up to about 100 mph *icra still behind, I think hmmm,
I pull in and floor it ,*icra goes, screaming, banging, and popping past,what a sound .
Since chatted with the guy who owns it, on another forum, hell of a nice guy, and we sort of know each other...the spec of the engine is insane and I`ll bet he is not finished yet......
the worst part of it all, was coming home to my 16 year old son....you can imagine the scene.............`anything race you today dad ? (usually he gets, yea a boxter S,or a TT,the odd 911,did you win ? always yes, or well, don`t know, `cause he/her couldn`t get past me)
so this day,he gets, yea a *icra raced me, he bursts out laughing,but he was promptly stopped, when I tell him it passed me at over well 120 !!!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 11/01/2007 02:42
oh yes, the caterpillar is almost a butterfly
can't wait....
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 11/01/2007 10:40
about time
so any pics?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 19/01/2007 22:23
Finally !
It's back in my mits. I cannot at this stage thank Barbz enough for his tireless attention to detail ( takes a bow ! )
I have just managed to re-insure & MOT the thing, totally sailed through on stock injectors, 3" full system & NEW Race CAT, once it got warm the emissions literally fell away in a few secs.
oh, now the engine is so silky smooth, yup, as you guessed it the gearbox has the good old 6 sp taper bearing rattle ( that won't last long at 450hp, maybe a day or 2 !
)
so much to do, clean, detail etc, handbrake cables ( always forget one thing ! )
then it's time to polish, run her in & then get mapped. Full review to follow.
Thankyou Barbz, a real gent, good to see you also Hanny !
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 19/01/2007 22:53
Oh yes, Taz...at last!!! fantastic!!
congrats
can't wait to hear show she runs at full steam!!
Joe
Posted By: Flea
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 19/01/2007 23:05
Another coupé rises from the ashes stronger and prouder... long live Torque Italia
Posted By: Jimbo
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 20/01/2007 00:02
Well done Taz and Barbz
Who's doing the mapping for you ?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 20/01/2007 00:06
Happy b/day Jimbo
All the good un' in Jan ( incl' myself 24th ! )
...now then, yes, it will be Perfect Touch.
Still a few / lots of tweaking to do before I drop it off at PT.
must admit, the noise the 6sp box makes ( which I always thought was the engine !
) reassures me that it will go pop very soon ! die I say !
Taz
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 20/01/2007 01:43
Well done taz, how long till she is run in and you hit the rollers?
Oh dont forget nyssa has some 6speed internals
Or you can have my gearbox for free in exchange for yours and a new set of internals for me to put in it
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 20/01/2007 01:44
Well done taz, how long till she is run in and you hit the rollers?
Oh dont forget nyssa has some 6speed internals
Or you can have my gearbox for free in exchange for yours and a new set of internals for me to put in it
Posted By: paul
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 20/01/2007 05:03
congrats Taz ...................don`t spend too much time polishing.....enjoy driving it too
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 20/01/2007 13:36
Good seeing you to Taz - was very impressed with your coupe - had you been another few minutes later and I would of taken it out for a test and run it in for you!! Your Coupe is as impressive as always regarding condition oh and not forgetting the 'Bling'
Posted By: paul
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 20/01/2007 15:40
Hi Hanny how is the Alfa going ?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 20/01/2007 22:39
finally washed the thing, amazing how much crud builds up
Am very impressed by the helix paddle clutch, so bloody light its almost hard to believe that it's a seriously uprated bit of kit ( the next up is the twin plate jobbie which is a monster ! )
still a tad juddery, well, I haven't driven it yet to bed it in !
Lots of new bits fitted courtesy of Barbz. Am keen to see how the new rear arb feels, hopefully will have it all tracked / lined up next week when I can tax it ( that's all thats left )
then a few weeks running in, then off to PT
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 21/01/2007 00:50
I should employ you as my agent, I keep forgetting I've got them too!
They are in a box over at Auto Integrale, if Taz or anyone else is interested in them, give Keith a call on 0118 9710 281. £100 plus postage gets them
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 21/01/2007 00:55
Which bit Trevor?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 21/01/2007 03:02
The complete innards for the 6 speed box
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 21/01/2007 03:32
ahhh lol
Id love them if i could fit them into my box but ho hum
You have played with the 5 speed box as well havent you?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 21/01/2007 05:34
hmm.....
from what i've seen, the good old 5sp box is miles tougher than the 6sp, all due to the stupid taper roler bearings, which of course push the thrust onto the casing, which of course bursts after about 350hp & repeated application
mods ahead !
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 21/01/2007 05:50
Well taz you could have my box if i could have yours with nyssa's bits fitted?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 21/01/2007 05:58
so whats the going rate for a 2.4 bottom end these days then?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 21/01/2007 14:45
Not really played with a five speed. We had one at first install, drove the kappa once with it but grenaded that first engine. Put a scarpper engine the same week but then broke the box on the rolling road the weekend after having grenaded the engine. What a week that was
We had a race that weekend, and another the following weekend. After a bit of thought, we went 6 speed (because Barbz had one and thought they might be stronger at the time), had the box in that week and made the race two weeks after the fun had all started
Have contemplated going back to 5 speed more than once, but I need the closer gearing of the Alfa 6 speed (and the fact I can use a 156 Quaife LSD). Have decided to accept gearboxes may be a "sacrificial" part - but racing is different to road use. Would also expect a gearbox to last a lot longer on a road car unless your dragging it every weekend
If I had a 2.4 road car, I'd probably go 6 speed because the 2.4's extra torque could pull the high 6th gear better and make it more usable
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 21/01/2007 14:46
hmm.....
from what i've seen, the good old 5sp box is miles tougher than the 6sp, all due to the stupid taper roler bearings, which of course push the thrust onto the casing, which of course bursts after about 350hp & repeated application
mods ahead !
Don't forget, there are two types of 5 speed box fitted to the Coupe. One is of similar design to the 6 speed, so weaker. The other is of similar design to the integrale box and can be strengthened with an internal plate
Posted By: JohnS
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 21/01/2007 15:05
Good to see your coupe is back up and running Taz! Still looks as fantastic as ever.
Looking forward to hearing about the mapping
Reckon the spoolup will suprise everyone! Just be gentle with it until mapped as when I ran my 2.4 first on the std ecu it could barely fuel it at 0.8 bar boost!!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 21/01/2007 17:24
Cheers for the info Trev, much appreciated. I think that as time moves on, the box is the weakest link, & I will have to look into somehow uprating the internals of the 6sp, or going old skool & having a very early 5sp box, as the casings are bomb proof( ish ! )
@ John, yes mate, I WILL take it very easy
It has cost a small fortune & I would hate to ruin all of Barbz hard hard HARD work on the car. I think I really made the guy work very hard & for that I cannot thank him enough. His r&d work is amazing & what he can turn out from his humble workshop is something else !
Hopefully the running in will be a tame affair.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 31/01/2007 23:20
well, it just gets betta & betta ( touchwood ! )
the engine has now done about 250 miles ( ok, only a small amount, but the 2.4 really realy shines ) , all gentle motorway cruising, with some loading up, so far, the exceptional porting & manifold meat removal has seriously increased spoolup, I can get my rather large turbo ( no idea on spec, but at a guess a GT32 ??! ) this fcukka spools up at about 1.8K !
boost comes in by about 0.6bar at 2K, at the moment its on wastegate boost, so it won't really go above this, so preload is very light, put it this way, it's very odd cruising in 6th, as it can get into 3 figues on my private road very very easily.
Until it's run in, I have to be careful, as the ECU can get a bit confused with the extra flow into the block, the 3" zorst is a monster, will probably need some serious extra silencing, as at the moment I am only revving her to 3 - 3.5k, but this puppy is good for about 8k !
clutch is exceptionally light, but grips hard ( so far, we'll soon see on the rroad
) , the F40 brakes complement the setup.
oh, torque is massive at the bottom end, it just pulls from 1 - 1.5K with no fuss, heaven only knows what this b'stard is gonna be like when it's run in & mapped.
watch this space
Posted By: Rog20VT
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 31/01/2007 23:23
excellent taz.
cant wait to hear how the OE management copes, will save a good amount if it works well.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 31/01/2007 23:29
nor can I matey, one I am counting on, as the cost of a standalone could be a killa
I did speak at length to quite a few peeps, some of which were adamant that it wouldn't work, but so far Flea seems to have turned this theory on its head. Hopefully, my cop should be easier, as everything is in proportion, eg, engine, injectors, mass flow, turbo, air intake, etc, so scaling up should be easier ( hell, i don't know ! ).
will soon find out, as this could really pave the way for further developments
Posted By: Rog20VT
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 31/01/2007 23:32
yes you're right, your doing the work to make all coupes 400bhp +.
are you running a larger MAF?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 31/01/2007 23:40
keeping the maf the same, but using a few guys from work, we did a few flow calcs & guessed up a larger body ( approx' 40% bigger, to scale up the airflow ), some benefits of working at a big place
this may / may not work, so it's an experiment to see if the ECU can still interpret the AFM data. I assume PT will be able to use a flowmeter to measure what goes into the AFM & confirm the ECU sees this as a similar value ( albeit in a voltage reading )....
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 01/02/2007 03:44
hi taz. You coul try this shine MAPECU. i'm going to install it on my 20Vt. It can perform nicely as MAF at low rpm with free flow on high rpm. with laptop, you can remanage the range of 0-5v of MAF easily. no more cut fo maxed out.
it takes first the original signal of standard maf, then, you can take out the maf, connect this unit with plenumchamber, connecting PTS source, RPM and mapecu outsignal to pin 7in motronic (maf).
obviously, you must change ecu fuelmap when changing the 0-5v maf output from mapecu.
as name, it is simpy a MAP with pc controller.
for someone who wants to use a aftermaket ECU with original harness (for coming back in motronic), this solve the maf problem also. this is my way with motec+original harness+mapecu setup.
for more info:
http://www.mapecu.com/map1.htmland now, go for it 2.4 !!!
Posted By: mattB
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 01/02/2007 03:50
Whooooooooooaaaaaaaa!
Signature slightly oversized there chief.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 01/02/2007 03:52
sorry, is the same for UK & ITA forum...
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 02/02/2007 03:01
My god Taz, your engine bay is like looking into Goldie's mouth
I love that manifold cover
Can you PM me what sort of price it is for that to be done?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 02/02/2007 04:12
Outta your range is the answer pinin!!
Mr Bling is back on the road! lol.
I bet your dishwasher is thankfull though hey taz
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 02/02/2007 13:22
Oooh Taz, Please can we swap!!!
Looking very very smart!
Joe
Posted By: mattB
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 11/04/2007 16:23
You managed to find time to get this thing run in yet Taz?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 11/04/2007 16:30
finally all run in buddy, am actually waiting to have some quality oily stuff delivered by the most incompetent courier company the world ( no, wait, the universe, no wait, my arse ! ) could have dreamed of.
it's then a case of organising a mapping session to get up it n' running to near top end.
I still need to fit my DDS3 aquamist ( hopefully this weekend ) then a few bits & it's ready.
I had a full 3" zorst made up, but it's just too too loud for my old ears, so will have to sort this later.
the list goes on & on & on & on
Posted By: mattB
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 26/06/2007 22:50
Did I miss it, or are you still keeping this a secret from us Taz?
If you dont tell us anything else soon I fear I may just have to go in a huff.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 26/06/2007 23:11
trying to book it in this weekend to PT
it's still not as I wanted, as I'd REALLY want a bigger oil cooler, the OEM needs to be at least twice as big.
I still have issues with the chargecooler kit ( as apparently this core is used on 500hp cossies ), but will need to chat to them about the need to measure charge temps, EGT & other bits.
I do run a full DDS3 aquamist, so it should keep them temps down.
from my recent info, JohnS has just achieved a monsted 490ish at the wheels on the 2.4, but that is with external wastegate ( he always has to be the bigger power monsta !
)
as I said before, I've made up my own 6sp cooler kit & have worked with Barbz to identify the weakpoint, it still won't guarantee a box failure, as the thing just is mickey mouse design with all the loads being transmitted to what is a rough casting
cheers
Taz
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 2.4 or not ??? - 26/06/2007 23:53
He'll need an extra 150bhp to pull his new 'van.
The Dr is so proud.
"Welcome to the party pal."