Guess my new bhp!!

rite my car is currently in Leighton's (flea) very capable hands and it was once apon a time running 335bhp at 1.35bar on a PT unichip map.

altho now leighton is mapping it too 1.5bar with perfect fueling rite throught to redline and unichip is now taken off as was causing problems before.

my spec is as follows. . .
pro alloy FMIC & SIP
C&B Cams
H&S downpipe
2.5" cat back power flow sytem
tubular standard design ported manifold
blitz sdi 3 boost controller
Gt28rs 0.64housing boost now at 1.5 bar
walbro 225 fuel pump &3.8bar fpr

Think thats it

Anyway im going to the powerstation RR day at end of month so will get my new figures. . . .
but thought i could see if anyone can guesstimate what my new bhp mite be.

before anyone says i know it can depend on what rolling road etc etc but im going to this one soo we will go by these figures.

guess away as im really not sure what it will be.

Mite even be a prize if guessed correct!

354.2bhp

336?

id be happy with that, and if its less eldinho i will blame the rr

350

349.9

1 bhp lol

ok 347bhp

351.7 bhp

349.6

343bhp ....

351

take a punt....362

355

No pressure then

I should temper this game with the fact it made 290bhp when it was last dynoed albeit on the Unichip map which didn't help matters.

Anyway, it's all fueled for 1.3 - 1.5bar now, just going to spend a bit more time on the ignition timing tomorrow morning.

So my guess... well more than 290bhp

Oh and this map shouldn't be wandering like the Unichip map, the litmus test in 2 weeks so no resetting that ecu

359!!

i like to be the highest!!

beat you to it !!

359.5

nice congrats

It will make 400BHP at Powerstation

LOL

353

You are very welcome to join us to see what your Bravo can muster

550BHP I would but its a bit far for me PT own me a free dyno run so i'll go there next week.

339

Dam it!!!! lol

wellanything near 350+ il be very happy with but we will see atleast ill know what ever it does make it will be fueling perfect or is it (joke leighton )

Flea, when and where are you going to get the RnR??

Have you had any internal work done?

for my car or his?? if mine at end of the month at thepowerstation RR day flea is also RR hiscar that day i think so me and other members will just stand there watchng the fgures on the moniter keep going up & up & up & up with exspressions like this

and when it goes pop/bang we will still be but leighton maybe (it wont do that tho)

my indegestion system is fine thanks soo no!

not forged yet still standard internals but then with perfect fueling matty on here is running over 400bhp on standard internals.

RnR????

Do you mean RR or do you think Leighton needs some time out from all this mapping he is doing with a bit of RnR??

How many miles has your car done Luke?

Oh and 345bhp

Gunzi
84000, still in very good health considering it been modded for quite a few of them miles but was looked after by ruben to highest standard.

I would say 335 bhp, as before, just on a slightly more pessimistic dyno. have no doubt it will drive better and feel faster than ever though.

Don't forget his setup is more or less the same as my/DrFrags old setup especially now he is upping the boost to 1.5!

I think 375bhp and around 325/330ft/lb

Ben

What figures was you and frag putting out eldinho??

340 hp.

360-370bhp! I made 325bhp the day before it went pop on 1.4 bar!

why did it go pop?

3 pistons cracked around the ringlands! oh well, onwards and upwards the car is almost back

due to fueling or problem mechanically?

sorryto hear buddy but as you onwards and upwards!!

fuelling was fine and was checked god knows how many times! the standard pistons just couldn't handle it, the ringlands is where they usually go!

I can see ANOTHER internals thread coming on!

Im really hoping that is not directed at me eldinho as im buying forged rods pistons now ready for spring soo as long as this setup sees me throughto spring il be happy!

Not at all, its just we all havent had a debate for at least a couple of months! Push the internals as much you want I say, as long as you know that they may go and are ready to do the work! Good idea getting the bits ready, makes it much easier when the time comes, I had to wait 3 months before I could even start the rebuild due to having to get the pistons/rods!

Standard internals rule

360.9bhp

351BHP and 5 weeks until engine failure.

340BHP...how much is the prize?

342.6bhp
Good luck.

If last time it was dynoed was at 290bhp how could it make over 320bhp with just a remap??? was 290bhp at much lower bar? where did the other 45bhp disappear to?

338bhp. And Luke, if you can make sure your engine failure isn't when driving in front of me down to Cheddar, that'd be very much appreciated. Thanks awfully.

I think 328

Maastiff,

Last time it was dyno'd it put out 298bhp at 1.35bar with very rich fueling. the highest bhp before now for the car was 335bhp on Perfect touch map with fueling going rich and very lean in places no where near a consistant 11.5 afr throughout which is what it is now.

Now my fueling is as near to perfet as it can be mid 11's afr right throught from about 3500/4000rpm and also im running 1.5bar boost.

from your comment "how could it make over 320bhp with just a remap??? " hmmmm. . . . quite easily tbh if a car is puuting out 335bhp once upon a time on a fueling graph which is up and down not fueling at the best AFR then you add more boost with the ideal AFR throughout the rev range. A car could quite easily make 30bhp+ more not saying mines gonna roll off the rollers with a dyno sheet saying 350bhp But it could!! anywhere near there will be cool as i know either way from when ive picked my car up and its fueling right its a total different car to drive and IS much quicker regardless of BHP figres

Without going into mode. All I will say is make sure you put up the wheel figures of before (PT) and after (PS) since the dynos are different this figure should be a better compare.

If anything goes wrong in the near future pray for a cracked piston as there will be a good chance that the bore will still be good

na il just put the forged rods and pistons in then that im gonna have soon.

I reckon 357 bhp or so....depends on how aggressive Leight is with the ignition.

i ran 338bhp at 1.4 bar and 1.2 bar to the red line and i didnt have the 3" sip and i ran a v band so depending on your engine conditions and if you can fuel it cos i was maxed out on the injectors and luke mate i ran that power for 10 months with piston oil ring going and it only let go on saturday,down on 4th cylinder now,so engine is coming out and going to j so 400bhp+ here i come

luke if your doing the group buy with j as i am why not just try and push the car to whatever it can fuel,thats what i would do

yeah i know what ya mean buddy but im in the situation where i want it to quick but still want it too last at least till spring summer time so i can do the forged bits at my leisure so can get everything i need to do it properly and not feel it soo much in my wallet because bits will be bought over next couple of months, but if it does go bang soon oh well the rebuild will be sooner than later

My advice is always the same. Keep your car and enjoy it.

Buy another engine and build it up over time. When ready swap over engines and sell the old one. That way your cars only off the road for an engine swap. That way you have something to look forward to instead of rushing the job because your without a car.

that was my plan but things dont alway go to plan

Westcoupe do you have a sprint blue coupe with HID's and a bodykit?

i love sprint blue i wish i did,but no mine is that lovely greenwith hids and a le kit

Well I hope it goes well and it gets a good figure, but more importantly that it runs perfectly. I'm just amazed that it only put out 298bhp because fuelling was not perfect (or was there something else wrong aswell?) and that correcting the fuelling would make such a big difference. When will you get it back from Flea?

i already have my car back and like i say its a totally different car to drive now. flea doesnt just correct the fueling etc he alters the timing etc so depedning on how aggresive he is/isnt can be the difference between bhp figures also. Mapping isnt as simple as just getting AFR correct!it can achieve much bigger bhp figures with the same setup with a plug and play chip if you get me.

mapping is done to your cars specific ability regarding mods etc so you get the most out of your car!

An off the shelf chip will be created on the basis not every coupe is in same condition health,not all will have exact same mods so will be produced moderatly to play safe as such.

thats why with many other cars spend loads of money to get stand alone managment soo it can be "live mapped" to get most out of there car with there setup etc

Westcoupe, do you own a focus st aswell?

i did have a red st

I thought you had a gt28rs on the coupe, looked fast last time i see you,
seemed to be overfueling tho, plenty of dark smoke on boost.

Sorry to go off topic luke, you should see a easy 350hp.

Bump

Any more predictions on luke's bhp

Ben

we will know by saturday evening

i will also be watching this space

i recon 348bhp! and luke do you fancy taking me out in it again to see what a difference it made?
:-)

yes buddy thats fine

ok mate that is a good idea

rite guys it made 338bhp and 297torque thought it would make lil bit nearer the 350 mark but im happy as i know its running perfect

still good power mate :-) how does it feel on the road now compared as thats the main thing

Nice figures luke..

How much boost did you use on the RR? Any chance to see the RR graph?

1.5bar hani, but i think i need to get exhaust flowing better myself as got a 2" decat at mo so i Personally think it may be olding flow back a bit but some people will say it wont etc but we will see.

Peanut,it drives 100% better on the road and feels 100% better u can definatly feel the 297 lbs of torque

Well who got the closest then ......

exellent so its not a problem what power it made as its how a car feels and drives.

a well setup 330bhp car will be faster and feel nice than a poorly setup 350bhp car

Looks like SimonJ nailed it exactly

Great luke.. I recalled that it was mapped @ 1.5 bar by Flea. At the end, you have a reliable car with healthy engine

Exhaust will have effect for sure.. however there are many setups to choose from..

Which decat you have???

It made 335 at 1.35 bar before though.

You are only running a 2 inch exhaust?

according to them rollers!


its only 2" decat

Well I am pleased for you, it has jumped back up from 290bhp & 260lbs/ft to 338bhp & 297lbs/ft. You could probably release a bit more at the top end with a slightly bigger exhaust/decat, and with a more aggressive map i.e. leaning it out towards the top end, it could see another 10-15bhp. Problem is it's really only good for the pub, not the road or track.

Easy 20-30 bhp gain from a 3 inch exhaust with 5 stud fittment, you could likely run the same power that you are now with 1.3 bar of boost.

tbh i think its down to a boost leak somewhere as got quite a bad idle when ya your driving say at 4k rpm+ then dump the clutch to come to a stand still it wont go back down and idle perfect it bounces around fora while just keeping itself running sometimes nigel had similar problem and that was few lil oost leaks he found. so gonna check it over and see where and if it is that as its got to be i think as its not flea's mapping as it had that before and it still doing it also counts out the PT map on the unichip cos the unichip is now gone also.

I was thinking that too but it is an RS @ 0.64 so I wouldn’t have expected much more BHP @ 1.5Bar. What torque did it make at PT? With similar mods to yours minus the cams about a year ago i made 335ft/lb 320BHP @ 1.7Bar at PT.

I have the same problem on my Bravo and on Squids 20VT too. Can't be both boost leaks can it? If you sort this let me know.

I've had the same on my car occasionally for 2 years now - I've replaced the AFM, idle control valve, plugs, coils, etc. I think it's down to the SIP personally, it only affects my car for a minute or so after starting, so I decided to leave it as it is.

When you turn up the boost past a certain amount you wont get much more power, just stronger mid range

I'd be worried if it was holding 1.5 bar right to the top anyway...

it affects my car all the time no matter how long its been running. wouldnt think mine has anything to do with the sip.


mattw, it isnt its about 1.2/1.3 at redline

turbo j, will do if i sort it which im hoping will do. also buddy on the old pt map it also made around 300lbs of torque so no change there with 0.15 bar more

what gains would i see if went bigger than 64 housing? or would it just end up being to laggy?

Not a lot - 10-20 bhp, but I reckon the small exhaust would not yield much more from the bigger housing, which will flow more at the top end - which is where the small pipe will strangle it. I doubt that the car would feel that much faster on the road as the extra power would only be in the last 1000 rpms.

You've got a sorted car the way it is now. Personally I would leave it alone and enjoy the car for a while unless you go forged and then GT2871 or GT30, and I would run less boost - but that is only my opinion. If you get all of the forged bits in 'stock' then go for a big turbo and budget for a build when the engine goes.

ive got rods and am in piston group buy



but on another note im self employed and things are really looking bad and as much as id hate it there could be an ink black 20vt for sale if i dnt get some decent work this month

Well - it will be worth a few hundred quid whole if the engine goes.

yeah no where near what its actually worth tho,

+1

As i said on saturday, a 3' exhaust would help

And imho my coupe dont feel very fast so i would'nt think you'll notice the extra power

Ben

Luke in my opinion you have nearly reached the turbo limit anyway. Increasing the boost pressure is only going to increase torque. Your boost level is safe for your setup (non forged). The exhaust made a big change on mine but I don't think you will like a 3" system, when mapping mine Rob said that the backpressure was far too high that’s why I got an exhaust, mine was an N/A exhaust anyway. I don’t think it’s worth changing the exhaust until your rebuild.




I have to agree with Si on this one, no point in changing the turbo until your rebuild. GT2871 or GT3071R is a good start depending.....





Just shows that the remap didn't change anything power wise, in fact it would be fair to say its lost power if you have increased the boost and the torque has dropped off by 3ft/lb and gained 3 BHP. Not to mention that I personally don't really believe the Powerstation dyno, Dastek is far more conservative when doing the flywheel calculations. It maybe down to the fact that flea pulls out more timing than Rob I'm sure Flea will be over to explain in more detail as to why. What were your WBHP at PT and at PS? What were the dyno room temps at PT and PS?


I think this is yet another weak point in the Bosch ECU. I’m glad to hear it’s not just mine and Squids cars behaving this way. I didn’t think it was a boost leak.

A very good point there - and worth bearing in mind is that any dyno I have been too has varied within about 30bhp, PT, PTS, Surrey Rolling road etc. You get an approximation, not a dead right figure.

Interesting, Luke's car went on a Dastek dyno with the PT map which had recently been calibrated by Dastek. It made 290bhp & 258lbs/ft @ 1.35bar. Nigel had never tested his car on any other dyno other than PT Dastek until last year, it made 270bhp on a Dyno Dynamics with the PT map and that's not forgetting he couldn't drive it more than a few miles without the map going off! I have tested 3 cars with PT maps and not one made the same power as they did on the PT Dastek dyno, indeed as Suba has mentioned, he and Highwayman lost around 20-30bhp on their PT dyno runs at SRR Dyno Dynamics. Fact is Jason, until you get your car on another Dyno then we'll really never know what your car is making other than "PT figures"



Another vacuous comment, how have you attributed this to the Bosch ecu? I have mapped 15 cars now and only 3 cars exhibit this idle behaviour.

Indeed - treat a rolling road as an opportunity to test the car is running right and an approximation of the power that it is producing.

I am going by the figures luke told me. I always ask for WBHP figures anyway as that is what is actually being measured. Flea we are never going to see eye to eye on the whole dyno thing. I will put my car on the DynoDynamics rollers at uni soon just to compare Dastek & DynoDynamics.



The question should be why wouldn’t it be the ECU?

Well that makes, Nigel, Me, Suba, Luke, Squid all experiencing the same issue. What do we all have in common....A remap on the Bosch ECU, if it was mechanical it should have been picked up by now. I just have a feeling it’s the ECU and if I’m right I hope you can find it & fix it. Not that I'm bothered now if you know what I mean

Mine is not mapped on the ECU - it's mapped on a unichip.

How about a 20v turbo engine with similar mods? If it was the ecu then they would all do it, but they don't. For those that do have idle issues, it is the same whether you have a bog standard chip, Unichip or remap.

True but the unichip only intercepts certain address lines to change values. The actual processing/map factors are still Bosch so if it is to do with the ECU I’m certain it would also affect unichip also.



It’s the same for the adaption, not all bosch adapts the map to an undrivable state. There are people having/had issues with adaption and others not. Nigels was a problem mine is not that bad, Squids in non existent.

I don't think the ECU can be ruled out. What do you think it could be then?

I can assure you 100% categorically that this is purely by chance.

Incidentally, what power has Squid made with his GT2871R 0.86?

Good point - I believe my unichip only changes the map open loop anyway.

we now know the multiple causes of my ECU behaviour - the PT map, whilst giving good power figures, was sufficiently rich elsewhere to cause the ECU to drift - Leighton has sorted it.

We also know that my poor idele was caused by two boost leaks, including a fairly substantial split in the intake rubber

Neither of these running problems could be attributed directly to the ECU

Turboj i can ssure you want flea done to my car didnt just change the car power wise 40bhp+ it changed the car totally to drive and how its soo much more responsive low down and its got it all round now and feels like an animal on the road compared to how it was when it put put 298 on the old Pt map.

im not getting involved with this not seeing eye 2 eye with u/flea but i will say flea has like he said done 15 coupes now and all he receives afterwards is praise about how hes changed the feel of there car. Look at carphone (DAN) at powerstation on sat. flea managed to get a standard car bunning at nearly 259bhp just from his remap and dan said the car feels great when i spoke to him.

turboj if you on unichip/PT map bite ya tounge take ya car to flea and see for yourself! what u got to lose. i assure you will be very happy with the outcome.

which at the end of the day is what its all about! There is always going to be debates over figures!

I'm not disputing the work flea has done to your car, it probably is more drivable I did say "power wise" I’m sure he has done a good job I am only going by the evidence you presented here:



The eye to eye with flea is only about what dynos were used nothing else. I don't have a problem with flea at all. In fact I much enjoy bartering with him

I don't need flea to map my car although I did consider it. My reasons are justified and it has nothing to do with his mapping ability. I will be mapping my car myself (Flea knows why)

Ok all that aside now I am more interested in the not being able to idle issue. Ok so with Nigel’s being down to a boost leak that still leaves me, luke, suba & squid with the same problem. Maybe I should start another thread regarding this.....

Either way I would be happy with your results luke

I think J is a little stunned that people didn't get their "pub figures" at Powerstation, he was soooo sure it was going to be a riot and then suddenly no.

Anyway, you still haven't said what you got at your last remap session or Squid? Stop dodging the question

Just to add into the idling debate, my car idled fine, until i fitted the SIP. I have a suspicion it is something to do with the positioning of the MAF

Leighton's way is the best way IMHO.

Unless of course I Unichip your car.

indeed i am happy as im looking at it like this now i got the car from akeme with a supposed 335bhp 300lbs torque on a PT map at 1.35bar with a fueling graph print off which didnt look great with some very lean fueling in some areas of rev range. (ruben & roger have said that the car did have cracked manifold etc which will affect the afr etc) fair enough but would it of not also been mapped with cracked manifold giving wrong afr when trying to map??? i dont know . . . . . the afr graph for 334.6bhp shows it making 300bhp at 15 afr just over 5200prm the ges as high as 15.8 afr when it makes its max power tht seriously lean rite? no wonder it put out that power? even with cracked manifold could it give upto a 4.3 difference in afr reading?? if soo then ok lets scrap the afr graph totally as it had a cracked manifold at the time of this run.

then,
after having the car couple of months i go to flea for the day and he drops me off in town then hour later get phone call saying my map is a bit all over the place etc and probably not going to have enough time to do anything with it today so think he just sorted out the areas where it was bit too lean for liking. etc but we still dyno'd it and the first run made 288bhp 244lbs torque at 1.35bar with an afr of 10.1 from 3500rpm onwards. running rich

Now,
Flea has mapped my car and i have a very steady mid 11's afr from 3500prm rite through to redline putting out 335bhp with 297lbs torque at 1.5bar. and its all round very responsive and now nice to drive so ive gained 53lbs of torque and 47bhp from leightons work. and have a peice of mind that car is running great and no longer altering itself the more miles i drive.

im VERY HAPPY when i look at it like this,altho no matter what i rekon IMHO there was some lean fueling on the pt map regardless to make them figures.


Turboj, this idle issue is soo annying but tbh we could all have very SLIGHT boost leaks that may only leak when under X amount of boost.

i say this as i only have bad idle if im at say 4/5000rpm on boost then see traffic lights ahead so i put clutch rite down to just coast and use brakes to stop the revs will drop down and bounce around not just couple rpm etc like 500/1000rpm for couple seconds and most of the time keeps itself running sometimes cuts out.

BUT, if i do the same thing but DONT put clutch rite in and coast. instead i go back down the gears slowly keeping the engine under load rite down to say 1st gear using brakes to help obviously my car will return to dle perfectly.

Does yours do this if you do same or have you not tried? if not maybe give it a go see if its same or different for u?

I also think the idling is down to the SIP. Mine also had this "feature" occasionally! Used to sound like the Delorean out of Back to the Future when it breaks down just before Marty is about to leave 1955!

I can't agree there im afraid, the best way for a modified car is to run a standalone engine managment system and then to be mapped on a dyno

the problem is that its the most expensive way

IMHO

in an ideal world yeah if only there was a not budget but sort of a budget one for the coupe i think all 300bhp+ owners would go tht way

Luke, with regard to your car and how it was running before Flea got his hands on its

AFR readings from and engine with a cracked manifold will not be accurate and as such are not worth mentioning here

Considering the fact that the standard coupe ecu has proven itself on several occasions now to alter the map, could this not be the reason why your PT map was so far off??

How cheap would something like that have to be to make that sort of option worth while in your eyes luke?

mine does as luke described and my car isnt mapped. if that helps?

Totally wrong, a cracked manifold has little impact if any on AFR readings. I have run on the track with a 3mm gap between the manifold and turbo due to loosening bolts. The AFR readings barely changed except at idle.



Er no, it wasn't mapped correctly that's why?? This was the same as Nigel's and others I have looked. There will always be small variations but moving from 10 afr to 13afr after 20 miles, you have to be kidding?!

I'm interested to know at which point you think you should go standalone and your reasons why?

I think you'll find that my comment was a 'tongue in cheek' comment about the Unichip.

Not everyone can afford Motec.

Just to reiterate my point about the cracked manifold. Here is Luke's fueling trace from SRR

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii211/johansson007/DSC01001.jpg

You'll notice as the run starts it is around stoich i.e. 14.7 as it should be. As boost builds it drops to 11.5 at 4000rpm where it should be, but then slowly leans out horribly towards the redline. It's doing everything as it should up to around 4.5k and then it starts to lean off badly. This may on occasion give you more top end power, but for a road car it's just plain wrong.

A cracked manifold doesn't cause the fueling to do that! There is one reason why the fueling did this and that is because it was mapped incorrectly, simple as that.

Well Flea i will have to disagree about the cracked manifold/AFR here, i have had on several ocasions on differing cars and setups had Changes in the AFR, not as far as Luke car had but quite a bit



As for the car not being mapped correctly, i do not know the story about what happened with lukes car, i was asking questions to see if there was any particular reason why the car was out of tune, being that the Ecu is self learning and people have suffered from this problem i thought that it could be the cause or part of the problem??

I dont know hence me asking!

As for a standalone engine management change over point, i think that should be done when the standard item is struggleing or needs to be fooled in one way or another

E.G. having to lie to the ecu with regard to MAF flow to Run extra BHP

At this point i would change but this is just my opinion


Also the cost of standalone systems now days make it worth while, not to mention all the benifits you can get on some sytems now days


this is my opinion and i do not own a coupe so take from it what you will, saying this though i have gone through all sorts of problems when tuning cars and have found that there is rarely a cheap option, as such i prefer to spend the money first, buying the correct equipment and avoiding problems in most cases


most people in the industry will tell you that most of the problems arise because the owner is trying to cut corners in one way or another, normally finacial

I personally prefer to do a job correctly first time rather than having to do it all over again once i find that one of the compremises has not held up, more expensive yes but normally alot more simple and reliable

As they say "you pays your money and makes your choice!"

sorry matt, i missed the "tongue in cheekyness", unichip is a good alternative i think.

Flea i did not say that the crack was the cause of lukes fueling problems, your getting very defensive im only asking questions to see if there is any other possible causes to the problems being experienced

Not to mention that i think its very un-profesional to publically slate a mapper or company.

I'm sure Leighton will correct me if I'm wrong, but I dont think that if you are live mapping a coupe you can count that as 'fooling' the ECU as you are changing the values in the maps. I'm fairly sure he's also changed the MAF function so again it's more a case of recalibrating the ECU for higher airflow/bigger MAF housing and for more fuel/different injector openings for larger injectors.

There's no 'fooling' going on, it is actually a case of re-mapping the car.

trickymex it seems your getting the wrong end of the stick in many cases, it DID have a cracked manifold back when the prvious owner got it RR'd at 1.35bar on a "perfect touch map" and put out exactly the same figures ive managed with perfect AFR and 1.5bar boost. the PT map was very lean in places which IMHO makes me think thats how it made them figures at less bar if you get me. wether or not the crack effected the afr on the PT map it was at one point 4.3 afr higher than it should of been so VERY lean. near redline too soo car is under max load that surely is bit dngerous so if manifold does affect afr im pretty sure it doesnt affect it that much. . . you get me?? and what im trying to say.

also second to mattb what flea does is not fool the ecu. he REMAP's it.

So, have you replaced the cracked manifold before having Flea mapping it?

Luke i get you, i was just making a statment that AFR readings with a cracked manifold do affect AFR, though i do not think its atributed to your lean AFR's


As for the MAF/fooling the standard ecu, what i ment was the standard flow meter can only measure so much flow, i cant remember the limit with this specific MAF but lets say 300BHP for arguments sake, if you have say 350BHP then how has the flow meter measured the flow for the extra 50BHP?

Its quite common that a mapper would and its fine that they do scale it in a way so that the MAF is still measuring flow at the higher BHP, this is fine in most cases but i personally dont like it

Infact Flea has changed his own MAF, more than likely to measure more flow to make it easier to map and safer, maybe flea can elaborate on this himself to educate us all?

This is also a problem that many Skyline owners suffer from, the standard items can only measure upto about 480-500bhp so there are available aftermarket MAF's that can measure upto 800bhp before you have to start fooling the ECU, but at this point most have changed to aftermarket MAP based management system so no need to

My own skyline is running NISMO MAF's to combat this problem, im running a standalone management system but i will be changing it soon to a MAP based system

No problem. The older Unichips weren't the best/easiest to work with IMO however the new 'Q' versions are very good and give you far more control.

I spoke to Dastek before with regard to buying a dyno and they gave quite a bit of info on the unichip, they seem pretty good

Figures seem a lot more conservative this time round guess they fixed their pub dyno figures from last time.



Dodging it as much as you dodged your PT graph last time I called BS on your "480BHP" pub figure. I'm still waiting for that graph BTW

I told you already the dyno broke so couldn’t power run, I'm still owed a free power run anytime I want. I'm never afraid to show my graph the fact is I don't have it to show . I've been so busy with uni I haven't had time to pass round. As for squid the map never got finished as the boost controller broke no point in dyno graphing 0.7Bar is there?


Luke by the sounds of things your car has been through so much stuff its gonna be impossible to get to the bottom of what caused your problem. Being PT map, boost leak, manifold leak, previous owners work etc. The bottom line is you got some decent figures, and have a safe map.

Now going back to the ECU "MAF fooling" thing you are to a certain extent as you our out of range of the standard MAF. 5V max which means you have to map to max boost pressure anything between boost levels but still over 5V's will run richer. It also moves scope from bottom end idle.

Back onto idle issue....If it is the SIP causing why cannot it be mapped out? I think the problem may lie a little deeper than that but if that is the case it points back to the MAF yet again another weak point in the Bosch system.

I can also stand up for Leighton's mapping. The car drives really well, lots of off boost power (even better now i found my variator relay wasn't working)and on boost its like a different car.
My rr graph also shows how good the mapping was, as the power was really smooth right to the limiter (and also making power to the limiter)
I don't have any idle issues in any occasions and my idle is set quite low at 760rpm, even with a sip. So i don't think its anything to do with the maf or the bosch ecu.
I am 100% happy and if i do decide to go forged it will be going straight back to Leighton.

Ash

You did say that the AFR readings should be disregarded, no they shouldn't because if you ignore such evidence then you are risking alot.

As for publically slating a company, er excuse me? You have no doubt read my experiences, indeed read a little more as I have replied to Jason's comments in the RWYB section. You forget I spent £1500 with them not to mention a blown engine. I have also noticed, and I am sure others have, that you have very little to say about anything I do other than trying to question everything? Yet in the same post you are trying to defend the indefensible?! Why do you care so much about PT mapping, why are you trying to suggest they are not to blame but suggesting it is the Bosch ecu? Do you have any knowledge of what is happening? I don't say it glibly, there is a single reason why these maps are so inconsistant and it is down to the mapping, nothing else. I don't blame them per se, I wouldn't actually expect a tuner who normally works with standalone systems like Motec, or piggybacks like Power FC to understand a Bosch system. Most tuners are used to working with a nice GUI, the manufacturers make it as easy as possible to tune a car as they are a commercial product which is great. The Bosch Motronic is a factory system, it is not designed for anyone other than the people who designed it. I have created my own interface, no product off the shelf could give me the access that I have. It's a very complex but very sophisticated system, to tune it correctly you need to understand the bigger picture.

I'm not claiming to be perfect or the best mapper in the world, far from it, but quite recently "another" mapper on here slating my abilities said you either know what you are doing or you don't... I couldnt have said it better myself. The coupe world is a small community, I have been around for nearly 5 years, long before yourself and Jason. It's been a slow process getting coupes to the levels they have now, we don't have access to many off the shelf parts. I don't make a living from this, there aren't enough coupes! I do it because I enjoy it and I guess because I can. It's another option for all the coupe owners and quite frankly I am an anal ba***rd when it comes to mapping other peoples cars. You have never met me but many have. Despite being laid back and up for a joke, I would like to think people know that I am also very diligent. You may not always get that extra 5bhp because these are road cars and I like to keep that in mind, but I do my very best, which at the minute I think is the best option out there, other than Matty that is

I don't have a problem with Leightons maps. Never have and probably never will. I would let him map my car too if need be. My issue is with the ECU itself I’m not 100% convinced its the right route for me.

How is anybody supposed to take you seriously when you say things like that?

Leighton's 480bhp dyno sheet is on his Torquestats/modified website. Here is his car and here is the old dyno result. I'm assuming that's the one you're referring to?

I think the secret to Leighton's mapping is having a 'friend called Dave' to help out. Everyone should have one! Infact I've renamed my step daughter Dave to help me when I'm working on the car. Seems to have worked a treat

OK where to start..

Well fisrt things first im defending no-one, i know Rob pretty well but i would never defend his work as i have never had a car mapped by him

Im saying its not professional to publically slate a company or person

If someone suggested the same thing about you or FC performance i would do the same for your benefit

Also i have NOT blamed the standard ECU, i simply asked a couple of questions directed at Luke and you have immediatly become very defensive, answering questions on his behalf

Also flea because you say something is fact does not make it fact, i make my own conclusions to a problem with the information i have to hand, hence me asking questions, incedently they were not asked of you but you feel you must answer anyway?

Flea, i have not once critisised the work your doing, you seem to think im taking a dig at you or something?

Any of the questions i have asked you are simply my personal quriosities(sp), I am no fool and have alot of experience when it comes to tuning performance cars and engines, not just road but for race applications as well, more than 5 years and a very wide veriaty of cars/engines, so im no new comer thats playing with my car on the drive

This is a forum where people ask advice of people with more experience then them selfs to solve problems, im simply trying to help if i can

As for your mapping abilities, i could not care less, you seem to be doing ok and if you were doing things wrong then the client would be the first person to complain, so you cant be doing that bad

If i suggest to someone on here that they should go for a standalone system then thats just my advice, it may be the opposite to what your saying but its my advice, people will take it or leave it, thats not any of my concern but i like to think that i gave someone the best advice i can, bear in mind i have probably done everything anyone on here is trying to do on one car or engine that i have worked on

in general your right, i do not say anything on this forum as most of the time i do not want to tread on other peoples toes.

you also need to bear in mind that i have nothing to gain from giving advice one way or another, i dont work on engines or cars anymore and i spend most of the year in spain where i own my own business and spend most of my time playing with one of my own toys

but you seem to have jumped all other everything i have said simply because its not what you feel is right, if i wanted your opinion then i would ask


ironically for the £1500 you spent with PT you could have bought one of the standalone sytems on the market and got it mapped, so i kind of think you have proved my point with regard to a standalone system, although you would not be mapping peoples cars but your not making much money out of that so no major loss there

Anyway you may think that your option is the best apart from matty's, well i dont, dont get upset though its just my opinion, take it or leave it.

I think it's just down to different rolling roads luke, I made 300lb/ft and 314 bhp on a GT28R at 1.2 bar on a dyno dynamics RR, (the same one which gave everybody elses coupes accurate results). Try going back to surrey rolling road?

i was thinking that 2 only way to get best before and after results . . . .

Ok Tricky, I have said my piece and having read yours I think I'll let everyone else makeup their own minds.

You still wont get a 100% result every time. Like I said a few BHP here and there...

you know your car is healthy and is running well, that is the goal for me when going to an RR unless the power is way down signalling something is wrong. If you got another 10bhp on another rolling road would it make you feel better? Its still the same car!

Ahem!!! Do I win some sort of prize for accuracy?

if you was 3bhp higher lol

Weeeelll.... I guess everyone goes on their experiences with PT.

Mine is that my car has a unichip and when it was going for its remap I asked for it to run dual ignition maps as I have aquamist.

Now I also have an AEM AFR gauge in my car and on high boost/aquamist on all the way to redline I'm in th late 11's.

Problem is I tested the map with my aquamist turned off and as soon as the boost comes on I'm into the 13's. That would be bye bye engine if I hadn't had a AFR gauge and participated in a track day.

FAO Technics. Your map is fine AFAIK (I took your car to SRR). It hasn't wondered but I would be very weary of running high boost if you don't have your aquamist on!

I thought the aquamist is on all the time, the gauge shows flow all the time anyway.

Also, sorry, what is AFAIK? LOL.

Cheers Kenno.

.....as far as I know.

From the small amount I know about engines and flowing fluids I'd say The Idle Problem is down to what really seems to be the cars common feature - the SIP. (Just like others already are on to)
The intake basically needs the std. bends to get a even (lowspeed) flow. That's why it cannot be mapped out.
My 5 cents..

Also - how could the cars ECU's possibly differ? They are exactly, digitally identical.

That's a possibility but I think it’s more related to the AFM. SIP moves the location of the AFM closer to the turbo and I think this is where the problem lies. It’s not usually normal idle but under very certain circumstances the problem occurs just like what luke described. I will have the answer to weather it’s the AFM in the very near future

Yes you are right the ECU's are the same (processer, ram, table size etc) but they have the ability to adapt to your setup over time making them the same but unique. If they have been remaped then the maps have been changed; there are many things inside the Bosch ECU that can be tampered with.

I had a SIP on mine and occasionally I had the same idle problem that luke described.

The revs would bounce between normal idle down to about 500rpm almost cutting out. I dont think it was down to the SIP though, because if I opened the bonnet while it was doing it and fiddled with the wiring that goes to the throttle position sensor it stopped immediately and didnt do it again for months (except sometimes for a second at the first junction of the day, but not continually).

I could get it to start doing it again at any time by fiddling with the same piece of wiring while the engine was idling, but it would stop after a few seconds if initiated in this way.

On my car it was definitely something to do with the TPS, or the wires that go to it, or anywhere that could be affected by moving those wires around a little bit. I ruled out the ICV by cleaning it and replace with a spare one, neither of which changed anything.

Ditto.

The bouncing idle on my car was due to the wires leading to the TPS.

Very interesting, seems a bit odd but definitely worth checking out.

Yes but you CAN turn it off by pushing the black button. Also if you run out of mixture then you'll be at risk.

The car was not mapped at Perfect Touch with a cracked manifold, the crack only became apparent after a trackday at Bedford, which was after the car had been mapped. The fuelling printout from Surrey RR was when i had a loose turbo bolt and a cracked manifold.

The car was in perfect health when it was mapped by Rob, and tbh if it was running that lean (15 afr) because of the fuelling map by PT then im surprised it did not melt a piston after doing 25k miles and 3 trackdays.

akeme, didnt say it did have crack when mapped at pt. All i've said is that it DID have a crack etc when it made 335bhp on a PT map which is only what you told me when buyin the car. You got to admit that exactly the same setup mechanically apart from different air filter and pace radiator different spark plugs and now with perfect afr throughout but at 1.5bar its made exactly same figures it did at 1.35bar? I think there may of defina ly been somethin not quite rite.

At what RPM do you get max power?

Oi! Hands off my (lack of) prize! Just call me the BHP-predicting machine

if i could find my new graphwould tell u but old one at 335bhp was 6800rpm (where the afr graph is showing 13.4afr) but again this is supposedly well out as there was cracked manifold turbo bolt loose on this run

will try find saturdays graph as cant remember off hand what rpm that was but that was at a definate mid elevens AFR

Exactly, you werent running 1.5 bar at 6800 rpm so you cant expect a higher peak power figure. All you've done is bumped up the areas of the graph below that.

Luke the SRR fuel trace went up to 13.4 at redline not 15.8, otherwise I'm pretty sure the operator would have stopped the run!

Leaning off the fueling can have a significant impact on power especially at the top end where headline power is created. If you were doing a quick sprint or running up the dragstrip then I would be quite happy to lean it out for more power, but as a day to day road car that you might also take on the track, no chance.

old graph = as i state above 334.9bhp tb exact at 6800rpm running 1.35bar and about 1.1/1.2redline

saturdays graph is at 1.5bar 338bhp at rpm ?? as cant find my graph ash p will have copys soon tho, and still holding 1.2/1.3bar at redline. but i know saturdays run was at perfect afr.

im pretty sure people are not quite gettin my point as to why im a bit confused.

I am perfectly happy with my new wether it be pessimistic because of what dyno it was or wasnt. as i know it was fueling perfect for 1.5bar boost. Yet im abit concerned to exactly how the cars map was at the time of it making 335bhp 303lbs & 300wbhp on a PT map on a dyno bynamics RR only at 1.35bar. Flea understands where im coming from with my point and im not upset in anyway becuase i didnt get a silly PUB bhp figure i can assure you.

im thinking to make more power from x boost setting if you lean the fueling out a bit etc it will make more power right? or am i not and way off? like when ur running rich you will more than likely be down on power as i was when it got rr'd before xmas when running very rich.

do i make sense?

Surrey Rolling Road - Cracked Manifold - Incorrect AFR Reading.

Nobody knows what the AFR reading was at PT, i trusted them to map it safely and as far as im concerned it was fine.

yes ruben thats very clear to what the situation with the car was mechanically at the time of the RR but as said the afr reading is very high and has been discussed in another thread that even with cracked manifolds etc people havent seen THAT much of a difference on there afr readings.

nobody does know the afr when pt originally mapped it thats why im asking these few questions. as to wether it was mapped aggressively to put out the 335bhp at 1.35bar is what im trying to get rough idea of.

APOLOGIES flea is rite miss read the graph even i thought surely that wasnt rite but still 13.4 is very lean

You'll probably never know, but it doesnt matter as long as it's still in good health and is now running safe AFR's

just 3 bhp more beetween 1b35 and 1b5?

No, it doesnt hold 1.5 bar until 6800rpm, the boost will be about the same by that point. Should have bumped up the graph somewhere in the middle though. the peak power figure doesnt tell the whole story.

Luke, the reason why your car made more power with the PT map and less boost is practically impossible to answer

As Flea has said before, its a road car and he maps them like that, Rob may look at it differently, i dont know

its more than likely down to a conservitive and safe map and there is nothing wrong ith that

i do know that if you go to lean you actually loose power and if to rich the same so its a ballancing act

13.4 AFR is very lean and i would say that at that point you would loose power not gain it

maybe Flea can elaborate on this and explain what performance differences he has seen with different AFR's and where the point is that you start to loose power, as he is the man doing the mapping so he should know

a few skylines that i have worked with are running leaner than your setup and have been for a very long time without any problems but its difficult to compare engine to engine as it seems safe in some and not in others, this is where experience counts and and im afraid i have not mapped a coupe so my knowlege of AFR's on a coupe are limited

In what way did it make more power Tricky, 290bhp on a Dastek dyno was the most recent power run with the PT map? I can't remember the wheel power though

Sorry, i was under the impression that the car made more power, i thought it was 338BHP, TBH im getting a bit confused with all these figures now, theres just to many flying about

no tricky it was 335bhp on pt map when first mapped then map altered itself for some reason the more i drived then ended up being 290 still on PTs map but after it somehow altered itself but now its Flea mapped and its 338bhp

oh, i get you luke, was there ever a AFR print out for the original PT map or was it ever checked while still producing that power?

not that i can find from around exact date of the car actually being setup on the pt map, the print out is from about month later i think but that afr reading is with a cracked manifold etc so i think its bit weird ther no print out from the day it was setup at PT because surely they would of done it on the rollers right?? thats why its bit confusing.

You also have to take into account the advance. if the car is running rich then you can dial in more advance and get the same power than if it ran more lean with less advance.

Coupes do not like running in the 12's or more lean than that. The RB26det is a different story.

Suba - you missed a 'T' off the end. RB26DETT

i had mine mapped at PT, and they dont give you a fuelling trace.

I have made a few calls and PT tend to not print off the fuel trace but monitor it while mapping, theres nothing wrong with this as most people dont really need to know

suba is correct, its a ballancing act between the afr,ignition advance,and boost, if you adjust one then it affects the rest

Well - I got one, but then my car was the first one they ever did.

out of curosity was yours lean in places?

Nope - but mine was not live mapped.

nor was lukes his was running unichip also. (i assume yours was unichip)

Yep - unichip. rolling road not so long ago and was running fine.

Si do you have your fueling trace from Surrey?

Yep:

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a198/suba11/?action=view¤t=4.jpg

Cool, that looks ok on the high boost. What was the red line boost?

1.15 bar.

Do you have your PT fuel trace to compare, just interesting see how much it has changed. IRC, it was set to 11.3 to get more timing?

1.15bar, isn't that your track day setting? Lowering the boost doesn't always mean safer if the fueling hasn't been set for this. Luckily most of the driving on track is done at 5000rpm and above where it starts to richen up a bit on your car.

yep 1.15 bar is my track setting. The 1.15 bar redline applies when using 1.35 bar peak boost.

I'll see if I can dig out the PT fuelling graph.

I think Rob advance the ignition about 7 degrees mid range - so has likely run the car rich to compensate for this.

can't find the AFR from PT - I think they only showed it to me on screen rather than gave me a print out.

Not to worry You confused me about the redline bit, did you mean the red line on the graph or redline i.e. limiter? I assumed you meant the red afr trace was at 1.15bar.

Sorry Leight - I ment the Limiter.

Ah, I meant what boost were you running on that graph that produced the red line fuel trace?

Around 1.15 bar peak - not sure about the redline (limiter) boost - i guess around 1.0 bar or so.

Not wishing to rock the Roller boat... but Didn't you make 344bhp on PT's rollers yet at SRR that show's 305 horses. You can't have lost 39nags Si.

I have not lost any power - the car feels the same. as I have said before many times you can expect power runs to vary within 30 bhp or so, you never get an exact reading, so I'm not fussed, and certainly was not about to tear my hair out looking for boost leaks that were not there. All the cars that ran on that day seemed to be down compared to runs elsewhere, and Surrey RR always seem to have conservative figures IMO.

Yes Highwayman was down 20bhp from PTs rollers too on that day. Was yours about right Ken, irc Nobby was a little low too until he changed chip.

Did you know the fueling was lean at lower boost Si? I would be more inlcined to run it at the higher boost on the track where the fueling is better.

At least it proves that PT can map a car correctly, also Suba have you got the WBHP figures from both runs, i just want to see how far out they are compared to each other

As for 30BHP difference at the fly, thats 10% thats tollerable i think and seems the norm

As im now into tuned cars in alot more detail and know a fair bit more than when started out on this forum i would never EVER leave anywhere that my car had just been mapped without getting a AFR print out as thats the mpst important thing to everyone with turbo cars that its fueling rite.

So your average joe bloggs who aint got a clue might not want to see or know but i certainly would. Couldnt see you tricky walking out of somewhere your car had been setup and not want to know about the fueling of it.

Yeah but i noticed powerstation were only monitoring boost and fuelling if requested. should be done by default i would have thought. Could potentially blow someones car up?

i didnt say when u get it just rr'd matt after its been mapped by someone. i would go to 20 different rolling roads tomorrow and not want a AFR trace from any because i know its running rite becuase i can see the afr trace from FLEA from when he mapped it few weeks ago

PT map ya car then dont give you fueling trace or probably dont even make a piont to show customer when they pick the car up to say this is how its fueling by the way sir "for your piece of mind"

Well that's just plain stupid. Whats the point in RR'D it if your not going to check the car is ok? Take mine for example. It had been mapped and i have all the graphs for it, but a couple of years have gone by and it all went tits up, running mega rich.

Not plain stuid actually as yes matt a few months down the road when i next decide to get it rr'd i will get fueling trace because it would be a few months later so just check and see its not altering itself. but i state above " tomorrow " not in 2 years i wouldntget afr traces. your not guite getting where i was coming from

it wasn't a dig at you luke, my point was that all rolling roads should check fuelling as a matter of course. It will flag up any issues on the spot and it could be potentially harmful running a car on a rolling road if it is fuelling incorrectly

yeh fair point tbh, because they only do it if you ask dnt they?

hello,

I don't want to be out of the subject, but i ve got one question:
when i read post about boost level, I often read guys who re running only 1b3 on overboost and 1b1 stable(on the red line)...I mean in the case with a gt 28 turbo and with all the bits: fmic, sip, fuel pump...?
Why didn't you put more pressure?

thx chris

not sure what your saying here buddy but i was running 1.5bar and 1.2/1.3bar at redline

I think you will find they always monitor the afr, at least all the ones I used, giving you a print out is a different story, I always ask for a afr print out and I would think that anyone in the know would request one, the people that don't ask probably don't know what it means so it's not important

Actually - I only realised that today when looking at the graphs again, I'd assumed that it would run more rich at the lower boost!

Why - if you ask for a power run then that is what you get!

Because more boost does not always mean more power!

Surely if you are getting a power run, you are wanting to know if your car is running ok?? Checking the AFR is ensuring it is running ok

MattM, i agree, i would ask for a AFR print out but as Suba says that not just a power run

Also if the car has been mapped and the AFR's checked then its unlikely that the AFR's will change for no reason

the only reasons that come to mind is if something wears out or if something like and injector or FPR fails, if something like that happens then its usually obvious as the car will run like a complete dog or go into limp home mode

That's called a fuelling check.

If you are running a boost controller then you can't go into 'limp mode' as the ecu has no way to lower the boost.

But it can reduce the advance if it sees DET (not by much though)

I must admit when I map cars I check it at all boost levels and adjust accordingly. A couple of times people have arrived with the boost turned down for safety as it were, and when checked the fueling is actually worse than if they had stuck to higher boost. Running 12.6 - 12.8afr @ 1.15bar is not a good recipe for the demands of a track, but luckily it starts to richen towards 12afr at the top end where you spend most of your time so probably saved your engine there!

If it was going to go I guess it would have by now!

Dont tempt fate Suba lol said that on my very first 16vt the day i was going to trade it blew up on the way lol

... and these very same people probably get a far more aggressive map, running slightly lean to get a higher headline figure. When these cars subsequently go bang, they just accept that 'that's what happens when you modify cars'.

If you're interested enough to get your car to a set of rollers, then you need to be clued up enough to know that you need a fuel trace regardless of who mapped your car and when

Suba, I can't see your dyno printout through the filter, but is it really running 12.8-12 from coming on boost to the redline!?

Trappy i agree that people should get clued up and ask for the right info when they go to a rolling road

But i get the impression that most mappers unless requested tend to air on the side of cuation, like Flea has been saying, these are road cars and he maps them as such, from the mappers i know they all look at it this way, its just not worth there reputation to have cars blowing up left right and centre for the sake of a few BHP

I would have said the same myself Tricky, but considering the number of 20vT PT maps that have gone south, you have to wonder what he was doing to them. The way the guy was almost worshipped on here was unreal. Even before the horror stories came to light, if anyone asked what a fuel trace was like from them, the answer was always "I don't know, he just told me it was good".

Welformed (famous for always arguing on here ) had one of the first well documented experiences with what happens when you start asking questions there, and then more followed.

Forums do sometimes get a bit gungho with these things but the sort of blind ignorance was just shocking. As far as i was aware, Suba's coop was the only PT map that wasn't subsequently revealed as crap... and it is now looking like it was anyway.

Does anyone have a PT map (Unichip or remapped) that has since been on the rollers and shown a mid 11 fuelling trace?

I get what your saying about Rob and PT and i agree it does seem odd

But i look at things slightly different, i mean Rob is very well known on the Skyline scene and other jap car tuning, and he has massive respect from all corners of the tuning scene

I am quite involved with the Skyline tuning scene, giving advice and problem solving when i can and i have never seen anyone say a bad thing about the mapping work he has carried out, i have seen fueling traces from various cars and they always seem correct and safe


All in all the problems that i can see here seem to be isolated to coupes and nothing else, dont get me wrong i dont want to defend the PT maps saying that it must be something else, but it does seem odd that its only coupes so it makes me feel that there could be a problem elsewhere causing this but obviously there is no way i can confirm that

I look at it as inocent till proven guilty and unfortuantly checking a AFR trace after many thousands of miles cannot be trusted 100%

What we need is a fueling trace from a PT mapped car and then a fueling trace not to long after to see if the trace is moving

As for other cars that have been mapped by Rob/PT well there is TurboJ on numerous occaions and they all seem fine, maybe he can confirm this, and Squid, again several different mapping sessions and they all seem fine, well no problems that i have been told about, im sure there must be others on here

Almost.. Mines high 11's. But as I said. I don't think they did what i'd asked them to which was dual ignition map it to work with the Aquamist on and off.

There are two fuelling maps on my graph - look at both Trappy.

I've always thought that Rob at PT was a great guy to deal with. He was willing to crack open the bosch ecu when a lot of others would not have even tried.

I've since been corrected Suba, I can't view them from work and got the wrong end of the stick

Here is my fuelling trace a month after PT did the map at the figures below (352BHP etc). I was worried about all the lean wondering so I did a fuelling check myself. The reason why I have removed the other data is simple. I don’t know how to use the dyno properly the RPM was wrong and so was the BHP so instead of confusing everyone explaining this just accept the AFR trace as that’s all I went for not interested in power figures as I already know what it made. AFR is fine to me?

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/9260/ptfuellingcheckpz9.jpg

Sure, if your definition of fine is "did it draw something or didnt it"

Erm Jason, that really doesn't tell us anything without any scales?? Anyway that was with the RSR yeh at 1.7bar of boost?

I'm guessing it made less power too

One thing is fairly clear here, people who seem to have spent most of their last couple of days sniping at each other about this RR and that RR always have an excuse about their graphs and why they're not right....

Oh give it a rest now Did i say power run, no. Did i say AFR check, yes.

The dyno is at UNI and I don't know how to use it my tacho shows 7000rpm the dyno shows 5500rpm . If I had a portable wideband I won't need to roller it would I? As I said all I wanted to do was check AFR why does anything else matter? It doesn’t. You can see it stays nice and rich towards the ends and that’s all. The problem with going lean towards redline, mind doesn’t do that, the PT map was fine.

I had driven the car for about a month after being mapped and wanted to check the fuelling didn't stray/adapt. It didn't. It was with GT2871R with 1.6Bar boost (figures are below from Dastek). The car has been remapped since then it now runs 2Bar if it doesn’t miss

Jason you can't post a graph like that with nothing on it, you may as well not bother. If you don't want anyone to know the horsepower results that's fair enough.

Anyway, the fueling looks fine towards redline although a bit too lean coming on boost and in the midrange.

I wasn’t going to bother but I thought it might be of some use. If I didn’t want people to know my HP then I would have just removed the HP scale. Why would i need remove RPM? My last power graph is in the hall of fame anyway.

I really wanna give it a proper run and AFR check since the last remap but just haven't got the time

Why did you remove the rpm? Anyway, talking of spool up in the other thread, what's it like on your GT2871R with the raised comp?

Because the scale was completely wrong and it would confuse people even more. (I wish I didn’t bother now)

Spool up is lovely. Raised CR all the way I knew it would work, . 5th on the motorway then WOT soo much torque it just pulls and pulls. I really wanna dyno this bad boy at PT to compare from the last run it made. Just wanna sort the missing out otherwise what’s the point in going. Been so busy haven't even had time to change to them plugs you told me to get.

I might PM you some vids

Simple indeed, maybe goes like this turboj --> "its only running what??" but ive told evryone on Fccuk its now im gonna have to use paint to cut these bits out to prove my Pt map is at least fueling ok .

(turboj goes to leave the dyno and heres operator shout) "you forgot your coat buddy





turboj this is pure banter you got to expect it after editing the graph as tbh IMHO if you know its running the figures below your sig at least now then who gives a fccuk what anyone else thinks (i dont)

I have converted the lambda to gasoline AFR as that's what most people understand. A little bit rich at the bottom end and then quite lean coming on boost up to 4000rpm as I am sure you have made 1.7bar before that point with the quick spool. Ok to redline.

Anyway, why not try another dyno for comparison and this time get a full afr trace

My graph is in the hall of fame go look.

Actually Jason what was your wheel power? It doesn't matter if the rpm was out as a Dyno Dynamics rolling road calculates wheel horsepower via inertia (it doesn't use coastdown ) so regardless of rpm the wheel power is correct.

Also you really are running quite lean between 3000-4000rpm as you will be making 1bar of boost at around 3000rpm and 1.7bar at around 3500rpm which is not so good when running 13afr. Worth getting that checked out as detonation is most likely when coming on boost and at peak torque.

Going by memory the tacho was 1100 to 6000 on that run. I don't know how that changes your scale. But your right I need a proper power run with AFR trace. This was mealy a test to show that it didn't run lean towards the top end so please take it as a pinch of salt.

With Dyno Dynamometer you can only graph/print two plots (stupid really). Didn't look at WBHP not intrested, only concerned was fuelling trace.

Its been remapped since then. This graph is 16/09/2008.

What was the flywheel power that you cut out as we can get the wheel power from that? Dyno Dynamics don't use coastdown so we can actually take the set % from that. Anyway, may as well post the full graph now.

have I missed a trick on this forum ?

Not being funny lads, but there seems to be some questioning about the obvious here with regards to the results etc...

Sure there are 2 sides to the story, but SURELY, isn't it about the aim of making the car run correctly ?

I am still a tad disappointed that my block still won't produce the sort of BHP / WHP ( whatever its fcukking called ), however on the road, it is fast enough at the moment

let's not loose sight of the fact that thankfully there is a CHOICE as to who you want to map your car

bit like marmite I suppose

IMHO

Taz, your right but ultimatly if someone is modifying there car they are trying to improve power and performance, im sure you did'nt go through all the expence and hard work to convert your car to a 2.4 so it would run nice, you wanted more power, there is nothing wrong with that

Right life story time:

Changed Turbo to GT2871R then mapped at PT on 5/7/08
http://www.online-presence.co.uk/_coupe/rollingroads/148.jpg

Maxxed out injectors that’s why it only goes to 5750rpm. Limit set there.

19/7/08
Changed fuel pump and fuel lines. Back to PT for AFR check. Sat with Rob in the car made 352BHP/322WBHP/339FT/LB didn't bother print graph no real difference as it was still running out of duty at 6000rpm ish. Rob said get bigger injectors.

Ordered bigger injectors but not fitted yet.

16/09/08
Got scared after talk of maps leaning out over time and took car to uni for fuel check. Were not suppose to run the dyno after 5PM due to health an safety but I did it anyway without the dyno operator (naughty, naughty). Rushed it as was only interested to see if AFR was lean. It was fine. Got the graph above.

15/11/08
Went to PT fitted 16VT injectors then re-map. Car finished and mapped to 2BAR goes to 7250rpm no fuelling issues. No power run due to broken dyno. Calaido said come back anytime for a free run...haven’t yet.

I show you the uni AFR because somebody asked that’s all. It’s the only fuelling trace I have but now the whole thing is irrelevant as the car is running fine just lacking a power sheet.

Jason the graph you link to has BHP plot on it, but you have cut out everything. If you show the full plot then we can compare it against the PT graph, it will be interesting to compare as the Dyno Dynamics is a well respected dyno the world over.

Flea do you not get it...The dyno was not calibrated properly I don't know how to use a dyno the operator was not there, so how could it be setup correctly?, how may time do I have to say this. I didn’t do a proper power run I just used the dyno so that I could watch the AFR on the wideband for all I care the dyno should have been switched off it makes no difference I’m only interested in AFR. It’s the same as me logging a wideband in my car without a dyno no power figures.

Like I said before once I sort out my missing I will do my power run at PT then I will drive to uni and do a PROPER power run on the Dyno Dynamics and post the results in the forum. I don’t have a problem doing this stop making out like I’m afraid to show results, I’m not.

Jason I'm having a play with you. Of course I get it, I think everyone does

Good