Fiat Coupe Club UK
Weight reduction of a 20VT + sprinting preparation
Posted By: Anonymous
Weight reduction of a 20VT + sprinting preparation - 02/01/2006 01:30
As part of my pre-sprinting preparations I am considering how I can shed a few kg off the car.
I belive it weights about 1700kg, whereas the wifes Alfa 156 weights 1200kg. The coop is half a tonne heavier!
.
If the weight of the coop could be reduces by even a fraction of this difference then - wow!
I run in an unmodified class
so changes would have to be stealthy. But I'm thinking...
Radio and CD changer
Rear seat belts and reels
Speakers
Boot lining, spare wheel etc
but then what...? ashtray? speedo rings? footmats? badges?!
Any ideas, and why is the coop so very heavy anyway?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 02/01/2006 01:32
er........the engine??????? lol!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 02/01/2006 01:33
Jap, the coop 20vt weighs in at 1310kg!
Posted By: pinin_prestatyn
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 02/01/2006 01:33
How can your coupe be 1700
Mine's only 1430KG with me in it!!!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 02/01/2006 01:34
I believe the Coupé 'only' weighs 1310 kg.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 02/01/2006 01:34
coup weighs about 1300 kg if i'm not mistaken, it's italian there's not enough metal in it to weigh 1700kg!!!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 02/01/2006 01:47
In addition to what you've covered, you could remove:
1. Air con if fitted
2. Undertray
3. Fit a new exhaust - the standard one is quite heavy
4. Lighter battery
Posted By: pinin_prestatyn
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 02/01/2006 01:48
You could go on the Atkin's, got to be a few KG's to lose there
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 02/01/2006 01:52
Rear seats perhaps, possibly look at lighter front seats too. You'll be amazed at how heavy the originals are.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 02/01/2006 01:52
sorry that was a realy unhelpful post!!!
You could get rid of the bonnet lining mine weighed loads, airbags? might be hard to do. bonnet lifters, light internals just leave the lens', glovebox?
When you say it's standard class does that mean you can't remove the seats and change panels for carbon fibre?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 02/01/2006 01:53
wheels!.................and brakes! lol!
try finding an aftermarket disc thats made with zinc....bout 10% lighter than standard discs.... every little helps....
also if you can live with it, i belive the power steering rack and abs unit are two heavy items....thats why tvr's don't have them!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 02/01/2006 01:59
Spare wheel
Floor mats.
As said above lighter driver will always help.
Other good one is to remove rear wiper and associated motor
Posted By: Fishy_Dave
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 02/01/2006 02:21
You'll need to be guided by the rules as to what is and isn't allowed. I'm guessing that you will need to keep the rear seats?
Bonnet lining doesn't weigh that much tbh, but removing it will possibly help with losing heat from the engine bay.
Changing the battery will help for sure, look at the Varley Red Top 20.
Grip and handling will get you better times than removing little bits of weight, but I guess every bit helps. I think the battery, spare wheel and other large bits are worth removing, but personally I couldn't be bothered with removing little things like rear seatbelts or head units.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 02/01/2006 03:09
1283 kg on my pink slip...
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 02/01/2006 03:35
Ok so maybe I got the weight a bit wrong I could really do with any edge I can get.
For handling and grip I now have;
AVO -30mm springs
KYB rear dampers
Koni Adjustable front dampers (just done - yesterday!)
Strut Brace
Toyo T1Rs
For power I am running
Gtec 1
Pace SMIC
Supersprint cat-back (just done)
K&N panel filter
1.2 bar PRV
To be honest last season I wasn't too far off ther pace against the TVRs, V8 TR7's a Porsche 911 ect etc... and I had the fastest speed across the line of any of the competition, on any run. I just need to be able to get round the corners that little bit better.
I am allowed to change the springs and shocks (done) and that is all. So I am pushing my luck a bit as it is. Any weight loss mods have to be very stealthy. Carbon fibre bonnets would be very noticeable. The seats have to stay
I have already changed the cat-back part of the exhaust so there is no middle box so that will have saved a bit.
I have no undertray and I have always removed the spare wheel, jack etc.
I think I will have a go at;
removing rear wiper motor etc - good idea that.
remove cd changer and headunit
remove rear seatbelts
boot lining
maybe the bonnet lining
I will look into getting a lighter battery - cheers Dave
I will also look into sourcing some stiffer anti-roll bars...
Cheers for the help so far guys. Any other thoughts?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 02/01/2006 03:51
jap, I agree with Dave, concentrate on the handling rather than worrying about a few kgs here and there. Uprated ARBs are definitely the way to go, as they are almost impossible to spot but make a big difference
. I have uprated front and rear ones fitted on my Coupe, and they have been well worth the cost and effort
.
The main problem you will have is finding an uprated rear ARB. There was a group buy on the old forum, but otherwise I'm not sure that they are readily available to buy off the shelf
. Barbz sells a Dedra unit for the front, but I'm not sure that I would recommend it on its own
.
I'm going to be looking into weight reduction a bit more this year, as I'm keen to improve my Coupe on the track, and have pretty much sorted the suspension and brakes now. The battery sounds intriguing, but Powerflex bushes are probably the next thing for me
.
Phil
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 02/01/2006 04:07
How serious do you want to take your car's diet?
An easy one is remove the bumpers and throw away all the foam stuff inside, then put the bumpers back. And don't crash!
If you're really serious, get it up on a ramp and remove all the underseal off the bottom - you'll save a good 20+kgs doing this, but you won't want to go out in the rain ever again
Lift the carpets and bin all the internal soundproofing and stuff too
Take out the air bags (and don't crash)
Drill lots of holes in hidden internal panels - like the doors behind the door cards, etc
Junk the electric windows and fix the window glass in place!
Etc....
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 02/01/2006 05:24
Cheers everyone.
I dont think I will be going to those extremes but all good ideas. I might remove the underfloor sound insulation though. That must weigh a ton!
I have found one of the Varley Red top 20 batteries Dave suggests at just under £80.
I have also found a set of Eibach anti-roll bars for about £370. How much was the group buy? I could also sell these on when the time comes when I part company with the motor!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 02/01/2006 06:14
How strict are your rules?
Can you change the wheels for light weight alloys?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 02/01/2006 06:22
I.m pretty sure you can swap the wheels and tyres. Will have to check though.
Is there much to gain from "lightweight" alloys over the 20VT originals?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 02/01/2006 06:41
I removed the thick bitumen like sound proofing in my race car, and the underseal but the sound proofing def weighed more. You need a heat gun to remove. Red top batteries have
cr@p durabiltiy and dont hold charge well, if you can get some 4gauge cables (autoconnect.co.uk) and put the battery behind the passenger seat this mounts it low and ofset the drivers weight a touch. Hell I have a set of door you could have, cut the metal out the remove the window motors, glue the door car back and be care closing them, the doors are crazy weight. I guess empty you washer bottle a bit as full it must have some weight in it.
rich
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 02/01/2006 07:46
I think the washer bottle must hold about 80 gallons.It is humungous.
The water in mine still only seems to last a week or two though.
Paul
Posted By: Fishy_Dave
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 02/01/2006 08:44
Other small mods to consider are camber bolts (or another method of adjustment) and a decat pipe.
I added camber bolts initially to my original coop and set them to approx 1.5 degrees, but hardly noticed any difference tbh. I then removed them due to possible safety issues, and ovalised the top strut hole, putting a c shaped metal packer behind the bolt to keep the camber setting. Again, I noticed little difference and couldn't understand why Doc Frag and others had described such a positive difference on their cars.
It did make tyre wear more even on track however.
Now that I can compare my first Coop with Geoffs (my red coop) I can see a HUGE difference in set up, handling and feel. This resulted in me beating my best sprint time by 2 seconds, now some of this was down to tyres, but considering this car is approx 35BHP down on the first one, other factors have helped in improved track performance. This is down to a number of things -
What I thought was a stiff track set up on my first Coop wasn't even close. My red coop has a very stiff ride, which has certainly helped through changes in direction. Depending on the track of course, it would be worth trying the dampers on an even harder setting than you have now.
Practise has helped.
Maybe consider an activity or training day? I did one last month in the Clio and it was superb. I'll be doing another one in a few months.
The camber adjustment on the front is much more extreme. I suspect the small camber adjustment I made on the blue coop was a step in the right direction but just wasn't enough. It was maybe only enough to counteract the camber applied by the Konis and lowering springs?
On the same subject, I wore away the outer 1/3 of tread to the carcass on my 172 last time it was on track! I have now fitted H and R camber bolts to the front, and gone for the max 3 degrees setting and it has really livened up the front, and I can see the shoulders of the tyre are wearing less.
What pressures are you running on your Toyos? Have you tried experimenting? What track are you sprinting on btw?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 02/01/2006 17:44
Quote:
Other small mods to consider are camber bolts (or another method of adjustment) and a decat pipe.
You could also get hold of secondhand cat and remove the internals (with suitable breathing protection .. nasty stuff in there). Very stealth.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 02/01/2006 17:47
Quote:
I think the washer bottle must hold about 80 gallons
Don't be daft - it's 6 litres IIRC, about 1.5 gallons
Unless you have one of these
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 02/01/2006 21:41
Quote:
Other small mods to consider are camber bolts (or another method of adjustment) and a decat pipe.
I added camber bolts initially to my original coop and set them to approx 1.5 degrees, but hardly noticed any difference tbh. I then removed them due to possible safety issues, and ovalised the top strut hole, putting a c shaped metal packer behind the bolt to keep the camber setting. Again, I noticed little difference and couldn't understand why Doc Frag and others had described such a positive difference on their cars. It did make tyre wear more even on track however.
Now that I can compare my first Coop with Geoffs (my red coop) I can see a HUGE difference in set up, handling and feel. This resulted in me beating my best sprint time by 2 seconds, now some of this was down to tyres, but considering this car is approx 35BHP down on the first one, other factors have helped in improved track performance. This is down to a number of things -
What I thought was a stiff track set up on my first Coop wasn't even close. My red coop has a very stiff ride, which has certainly helped through changes in direction. Depending on the track of course, it would be worth trying the dampers on an even harder setting than you have now.
Practise has helped. Maybe consider an activity or training day? I did one last month in the Clio and it was superb. I'll be doing another one in a few months.
The camber adjustment on the front is much more extreme. I suspect the small camber adjustment I made on the blue coop was a step in the right direction but just wasn't enough. It was maybe only enough to counteract the camber applied by the Konis and lowering springs?
On the same subject, I wore away the outer 1/3 of tread to the carcass on my 172 last time it was on track! I have now fitted H and R camber bolts to the front, and gone for the max 3 degrees setting and it has really livened up the front, and I can see the shoulders of the tyre are wearing less.
What pressures are you running on your Toyos? Have you tried experimenting? What track are you sprinting on btw?
Camber bolts worked well for me on the track, Geoff used avo springs I believe cut down to stiffen them and to lower the car even more, it certrainly changes direction very well, but then ride quality suffers a lot.
A lot of the things have been mentioned, certainly putting in a lighter battery would be a good move, and on the sprinting circuit,.. tyre softener is often used,.... works quite well and difficult to spot.....
Joe
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 02/01/2006 21:48
Hmm... you could fill the car with helium balloons
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 02/01/2006 23:49
Trim panels should come off inside i reckon, then passenger seat and bits inside with that. Spare wheel and all obviously, some octane booster, the intercooler sprays would help as well, drop tyre pressures a little bit at the front to help you dig in more at the front when launching, sun visors can come off as well, can always swap the drivers seat for a race one i suppose or a non leather version, have a good pee as well before the run, keep windscreen wash level low just enough to keep your IC soaked, ditch the undertray front and rear if not already done so, heat shield for the turbo can come off as well as they arent much use, get the matts out of the car as well, roof lining could could off as well as the interior light too.... the list can go on a bit more but i think thats extreme enough to get a good few K's off your car, Also saving teh big fryup for after the runs can kep your wieght down as well to help that little bit more, no offence even i would give it a try and i wiegh just over 10stone
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 03/01/2006 00:56
I knew my low weight would come to use one day.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 03/01/2006 01:26
Convert it to hand controls and cut off your legs, must be 30kg saving there, plus you won't need the pedals or gearstick saving you even more. Drive wearing just your pants too
Posted By: Nigel
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 03/01/2006 04:06
LOL - this is getting slightly out of hand!
The class that James is sprinting in is Standard Production. The only mods they allow are as follows:
Uprated dampers (don't think it allows springs, James)
1" wider wheels (must be same diameter as stock)
Race seat
Harnesses
Remove spare wheel & tools
Thats it - no stripping of interior or exterior bits allowed
So, for the purposes of weight saving for Sprinting, you're restricted to a race seat (you can borrow mine if you want to see what its like). You can run with almost no fuel and no water in the washer bottle. Thats it.
Personally, I reckon as soon as you do really well, they'll check your car over and find the decat and the PRV, then they'll find the springs and then they'll argue about the strut brace (they tried to disqualify me when I fitted my strut brace, but I somehow managed to find a printout of a screenshot from the Coupe parts CD in my toolbox - funny, don't know how that happened!)
Good luck - let me know if you want to try the seat
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 03/01/2006 04:10
LOL!
Yes, there has to be a limit somwhere.
A huge thank-you to everyone for your useful (and funny
) replies.
I'm not going to go as far as chopping of my legs or driving in my pants
but there are some very good things I now will be doing.
1) Investigating methods of changing camber settings! (Look out for separate thread!)
2) Get some practice in when I can. Trouble is I only get about 4 runs per meeting (about 5 meetings a year) and the laps are about 45 seconds long - its a very short (and difficult) track! I will look into getting some instructed sessions at another track.
3) Weight reduction by removing;
Sound insulation from under carpets
Spare wheel / jack etc
Boot lining
Bonnet lining
Water from washer bottle - must be about 5litres (=5kg!) (an intercooler spray would be noticed - not allowed!)
Head unit and CD changer
Floor mats
Rear belts - never used!
....I'm sure a few other things have been mentioned as well but I'm not going to be removing underseal or anything in a hurry.
4) Investigate how to make the suspension setup stiffer. I have only just had the front KONI adjustables fitted so I am not sure how they affect handling. I must admit though they dont feel as solid as I thought they would at the max FIRM setting.
I will investigate anti-roll bars but could do with out a £370 bill tbh. I will give Barbz a ring about that front one he does.
5) I will also investigate tyre softener. I have seen the GRIP
website and it looks interesting.
A good idea about getting an old cat and bashing out the internals to make it a stealthy decat but it would just make my turbo (standard
) smoke and be too loud (decats are not allowed in my class).
Before anyone suggests moving to a class that allows major mods and weight reduction, there is no way I will stand a chance against modded Nissan Skylines, Mitsubishi Evos and the like.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 03/01/2006 04:15
Cheers Nigel - Looks like I was writing my post when you posted!
Good points well made there Nigel.
Yes please to the offer of the seat. I was wondering if one would be allowed in the std class. Good to hear it will be OK.
The springs I have fitted are AVO units. They are black and look original - just a bit lower. I bought black ones with this in mind.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 03/01/2006 04:46
Quote:
I will investigate anti-roll bars but could do with out a £370 bill tbh. I will give Barbz a ring about that front one he does.
I fitted an uprated front one on its own at first, and would advise against it, it worsened understeer, just the oppositie of what you are trying to do.
Remember, to reduce understeer you need to fit an uprated rear anti roll bar.
I've since fitted an uprated rear one as well, certainly little roll, but still too much understeer, wished I had kept the standard one on the front tbh
Joe
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 03/01/2006 05:18
Cheers for that DoctorFrag. I think I might leave well alone then. Could be a lot of money spent for nothing - thanks for the advice.
Posted By: Begbie
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 03/01/2006 06:35
and if your thinking of the eibach anti roll bars be prepared to wait along time, think beast gave up with his after 6 months of waiting and took us a year on the group buy to get just the rears!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 03/01/2006 06:51
It took me around two months to get mine, that was direct from Eibach. There doesn't seem to be the delay there was before.
Must get them fitted soon.
Posted By: pinin_prestatyn
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 03/01/2006 06:55
Quote:
Convert it to hand controls and cut off your legs, must be 30kg saving there, plus you won't need the pedals or gearstick saving you even more. Drive wearing just your pants too
Tee hee Scoob you comedian
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 03/01/2006 20:33
I'm not doing it for performance but when you compare the OE front and rear bumpers to any after market fibreglass bumpers Im sure you could save the weight of the rear seats, spare wheel etc no problem.
Posted By: Nigel
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 03/01/2006 20:40
James - I also have a nearly-full tin of Grip tyre softener - again, I can let you have some to try out if you want.
The seat is a direct bolt-in affair, with some adjustability afforded by buggering about with the mounting holes.
The seat makes a massive difference to cornering, as you'll be able to feel what the car's doing via the steering wheel, rather than using it as a big circular grab handle!
Also, Iceberg has a pair of camber bolts that I've bought - he's considering how to fit them (they need some kind of stepped washer to ocate them securely - maybe we could do a joint project?
Finally, Iceberg also has some Powerflex bushes, that I will eventually get round to having fitted to a pair of wishbones - again, happy to let you have a look to see if they would suit your Sprinting exploits.
Posted By: Fishy_Dave
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 03/01/2006 21:18
I'm guessing the tyre additive isn't strictly allowed though
p.s Nige, you still seem to own a girly coloured Coop
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 04/01/2006 04:47
Cheers all.
Yes please Nigel! But by the tin being nearly full still I take it you weren't to impressed by the results it gave you. Still, I would love to have a try
Where did you/iceberg get the camber bolts from? I have gathered from the camber adjustment thread that heavy duty (Hyundai?) items are needed. I would not have a clue where to get these from (Hyundai I know, but what model?) so I would love to be part of the project please. This sounds very interesting.
A mate of mine had a 20VT for a while and he had koni springs and shocks all round and a full set of powerflex bushes. (All fitted at that place you saw my car rolling roaded actually
) His car cornered like it was on rails. Felt very positive and well planted. I had new wishbones on my car about a year ago (by Iceberg) so hopefully they are still Ok - but would love to see yours all the same.
Cheers all
Oh, Dave - you know sprint blue is the best colour!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 04/01/2006 04:55
BEST OF LUCK TO YOU MATEYBOY
Posted By: Fishy_Dave
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 04/01/2006 05:15
Quote:
Oh, Dave - you know sprint blue is the best colour!
I know that, but Nigel still has a Portofino Blue avatar.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 04/01/2006 05:38
Ahhh. I see
Posted By: Nigel
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 04/01/2006 20:40
James - camber bolts are from the rear(?) of a Hyundai Accent - also fits another model (the MPV thingy - Trajet?)
The Grip softener works fine - I only used it on one set of tyres, in preparation for TOTB last summer. It is detectable, on the basis that it REALLY smells - my shed still smells of the stuff, despite the fact that the tyres haven't been in there for six months. It would be far less noticeable in the open air though.
We need to get together (probably at Iceberg's) to see if we can move this mod forwards, together with the Powerflex bushes mod too
Posted By: Begbie
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 04/01/2006 20:55
You will really like the powerflex bushes when you get them on, just be grateful that Iceburg is going to be doing the hard part in taking the old rubbers off, hydralic press the new ones into place etc...
Also the ride quality doesnt really change, maybe a bit harder but thats about it, didnt bother me in the slightest down country lanes to work
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 05/01/2006 04:08
Quote:
We need to get together (probably at Iceberg's) to see if we can move this mod forwards, together with the Powerflex bushes mod too
Sounds good. I can do most days as long as it is after 4.30. I can leave work by 3.45 most days if I really need to, so 4.30 should be no problem - as long as you and Iceberg can do this. Of course, there is always Saturday!
Would be a chance for me to give you your spring compressors back as well.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Weight reduction of a 20VT - Its REALLY heavy! - 05/01/2006 04:09
Powerflex bushes detail
here Not too cheap though!