Reliable 350bhp - What mods / how much?

Hi All,

If you took a standard 20VT and wanted to upgrade it to give a solid and consistent 350bhp, what would need to be done (parts, labour etc) and approximately how much would this cost.

I am interested to hear all opinions and also from anyone who has taken this route and with who you had this work done.

Cheers
Jules.

ps No naff comments re Reliable in my title

Hi Jules

You are pretty much on the limits of the standard internals for that power.

I would go for something like this

GT2871R 0.64
FC Performance Map
Larger injectors (440cc??)
Full exhaust system with 3"downpipe without the V-Band
Walbro 255lph
EBC of some sort
FMIC
SIP with cone filter

And some brakes and suspension to go with it.

I think you are looking at around £3500 before suspension and brake mods. Depends whether you want the extra reliability of the forged internals.

Edit-Forgot the clutch. Helix Organic so add approx another £500.

Interesting

So why no V-Band Mr M?

What would be the cost of forged internals?

V band is a big restriction. No point having a 3" downpipe if you have a V band before it.

Forged Internals

£1000-1500 for the pistons + rods
£100-150 for a rebore

then you have all the bits which you might as well change whilst you are there

belts and tensioners £150
water pump £50
Gaskets £150
Head Bolts £50
Bearings £50

I really can't remember all of them, and some bits you will replace which you weren't expecting. Before you know it you are getting towards £1k just for little bits.

Then you start thinking why don't I get headwork (£1k+), cams (£500) and balance the crank (couple more hundred).

It all adds up very very quickly and you haven't even got the labour yet.

PS All these are approximate prices.

Just wave some cash under eldinho's nose and take his off him.

Hi Guys,

Thanks for your replies so far.

My only comment is that I am not too keen on going down the GT2871r 0.64 route and would prefer the GT28rs 0.64, the extra spool up low down would make the car for me more effective. With this in mind I could probably by pass the bigger injectors and have the 3.8bar FPR etc?

Jules.

ps Eldinho, keep it or be prepared to let it go at a price that may hurt...you'll never recoup what you have invested, none of us do...

You probably will get 350bhp with the RS but at higher boost. The GT2871R doesn't really spool up that much later.

I would personally go for some bigger injectors rather than maxing out the standard ones. Its not really an issue going for bigger injectors anymore with Leighton on the scene. I'm running 630cc injectors with no issues.

To do the job once and properly your looking around 5-7K. IMO RS would be wasted on forged internals. 28/30 71 is the really good choice.

You may also not get away with std injectors i have a 3.8 bar fpr and flea ran out of duty at approx 300 bhp.

Agreed, probably at about 1.4bar boost. I'll look into the option of bigger injectors but from what I've read the std one's should be ok up to a max of 350bhp.

Cheers Jules.

I don't think many cars will get to 350 on standard injectors without the aid of methanol. Which isn't really the best solution.

I know that you have said that you want 350 bhp - have you considered around 330bhp? You could keep the standard internals, and go for a GT28RS running lowish boost and achieve that without too much trouble without headwork on a standard engine running good compression as long as you have the relevant supporting mods. 300bhp would be a breeze on a 20VT.....would not cost a lot to get there, and the car would be very driveable on the road.

Standard injectors will also flow that without / without 3.8 bar fuel pressure....they will be maxed out, and it is preferable to go bigger, but then costs do start to mount up.

It would be far cheaper to go this route, and as you mention that a 2871 would be too laggy for you I doubt that you really need to think about a fully balanced, flowed, and forged engine....if I was to go down that route I'd go for a GT30 and learn to live with the lag.

I would look for a modded coupe to buy in the first place that is running strong compression - even if it ends up needing a re-build it would likely end up cheaper than starting with a standard car in good condition.

Really? Can you give a break down of where the £5-£7k would be spent please? Remember I've already said that the 28/3071 route is not really the choice I'd opt for unless there was obvious reasons to change my mind. I am happy to go with the GT28RS as from my previous experience these were more responsive than the slightly laggier bigger brothers. So possibly no reason to go forged internals?

Jules.

Good balanced reply and more in line with my current thoughts.

I appreciate that the end result may be somewhere between 330-350bhp, but asking for opinion at 350bhp I knew would get a good array of split opinion and advice which is all good.

Interesting comments ref buying an already modded car versus a standard one as a starting point. My concerns with an already modded car is how hard it will already have been driven and it would have had to have had lots of TLC, less concerning is a std model provided it is just that. Absolutely key will be a compression test and of the cars I've already enquired on then I have aksed for this to be done in advance. At the moment I haven't seen any cars for sale that are part modified that would make a reasonable staring point, but I have seen at least one std model.

Jules.

Lukes car has everything you want. Maybe change the turbo to one that suits you, get it remapped and you have everything done (including handling) for less than £6k including the car.

Jules - buy Luke's car!

It will be massively cheaper than building your own AND you'll be on the road straight away.

Its possible to get a coupe to 330 - 350 for not much more than a couple of grand, but it'll be right on its limits and it won't handle well. I guess you'd probably want it to handle and stop better than standard as well, so there's another grand to spend if you're doing it yourself.

OK - its satisfying to build the car yourself, but as long as the car is VERY well known, I don't think you have anything to fear

But maybe you do

I hear what you are saying and the spec of Lukes car is good for sure, but I am not keen on the laggier turbo and the power/torque it is making at 1.4 bar seems low? Also not too keen on the zender kit and the alloys, I know these can be changed but for me that is a bit of hassle I could do without. I like the std look as I did with my old Coupe many years ago, it just had the sills painted and was lowered slightly. Mechanically though Lukes car appears well looked after.

Jules.

Change the turbo and get it remapped, stuff you would have to do anyway.

The work would take you one day to change over including the turbo. Sell the wheels, GT3071R skirts etc and you will be making a profit.

Personally I think the 3071R is more suited to a forged engine with a flowed head, but then I would say that!

PS Lukes car sounds superb!

You said reliable 350BHP which means a FULL rebuild with forged internals.

I did said a proper build so:
Pistons & Rods £1300
Oil pump £350
Block Boring £120
Head rebuild no porting £200
Balancing £150
Turbocharger £700-1000
Gaskets sets and shells plus other bits from Fiat £500
Clutch £600 paddle £450 organic
Injectors £140
Downpipe £250
Exhaust £300
FMIC £350
SIP £80
Airfilterr £50
Oils £100
Pagid Blues £140
Heat Wrap £40
Build Labour £500-800 (Depending)
Mapping £400

So that’s about 6K already. Scary when you add things up

Walbro 255lph fuel pump and wiring mod to be added to the list, around £80

It really adds up as TurboJ said

That I did, so thanks for your interpretation of that.

I can now see where your £6k comes from.

A few choices then really, but for me then it almost becomes non cost effective to go down this version of reliable at 350bhp as ultimately you'd have enough ammunition there for a safe 400bhp+. Although some don't seem to agree I am still siding with the GT28RS and associated fitments as the best route forward, mapped properly then it should reach close enough to 350bhp without being unreliable, it would also make more sense from a cost persepctive unless I wanted to really chase bhp figures at the risk of loosing driveability and low down responsiveness.

Good info, keep it coming,

Jules.

Perhaps you should define 'reliable'.

Works for 10k miles?
Works for 50k miles?
Works if I poodle along on the commute and only boot it occasionally?
Works if I take it to the track and wring its neck?

Can't help feeling there might be different answers.

I would go for a GT28R and headwork, rather than a huge turbo. wont quite reach 350 bhp but it would be a better car IMHO.

Yes there will be different answers and that's exactly what I want, not really a question of who or what is right and wrong, more an opportunity to guage opinion based on owner's experience and knowledge.

Jules.

With the list I have given you above adding the fuel pump gives you the ability to run upto 450BHP depending on turbo choice. I think it would be a waste to go through all that and stick on an RS with “lag” as a justification I know I’ve been there, in fact I’ve had four turbos on mine and driven many others too. IMO the RS is for those without forged internals and pushing the limit. If you’re not going down the rebuild/forged route then make sure you plan for it later down the line because it will go pop. The 71's are NOT laggy in fact I’ll bet I can out pull any r or rs

And have

But back on topic i have the r not upto the power you specify, but it makes for a brilliant road car. Quick spool etc, Giving approx 300 bhp (never been on an rr and dont really feel the need to) i believed that would be "reliable" on standard internals. Exept the lack of forged internals all my supporting mods could take much more power but thats what i felt was safe.

And just to clarify i know a lot of people get far more power out of std injectors with the 3.8 bar fpr I didnt.

I have recently upgraded from a GT28R to a GT28RS but with the bigger .86 housing. There is a bit more lag (maybe 200-300rpm but the top end pull is 10x better. Might be a consideration as i should be over 350bhp now

On standard internals?

Did yours go pop with an RS, did you find out the root cause or did you just make an assumption?

Surely if it is modified and mapped correctly then it won't just go pop?

Yes standard internals, it is well mapped and has water injection too

OK that's good to hear, so an RS 0.64 should be somewhere in between your GT28R and RS 0.86.

Seems to be quite a split of opinion as to what spec gives a reliable ball park 350bhp. Still not convinced that all the extra expense (circa £3-£4k) is worth the extra 50-70bhp.

Jules.

Your not far away from me, you can have a drive in mine if you want.

Cheers Matt, I might take you up on that.

Jules.

Yes that is correct modified correctly in my experience means forged internals.

Mine did not go pop as I didn’t run std internals but I know many that has, most on here can comment. It has been discussed very much try a search and the conclusion is that the 320bhp mark is an estimated limit. Over time the ringlands will go, some are luckier than others. I cannot put a time stamp as to when but with less low mileage coupes about wanting to put 350bhp into this will only speed up fatigue no matter how well mapped. More power is more heat; heat is dissipated to the cylinder walls via the rings. This extra heat and more time exposed to it takes its tolls on the ringlands.

Fair comment.

So 320bhp-350bhp is a grey area then?

Jules.

IMO with std internals, yes

I partly agree - I ran at about 330bhp and 340 lb-ft for a while with forged pistons on standard rods.

I have a feeling that I *might* have turned up the boost for a few moments and the end result was a bent rod

So - I'm not sure there is such a thing as "safe & reliable 350bhp on standard internals" - personally, I reckon its a grenade with the pin already out. Sure, if the car is doing low mileage, it might last several years, but for me, I need an engine that will do 100,000 between rebuilds.

Jules - this is why several people are suggesting going for Luke's car (or Eldinho's - pretty sure he'd part with it for the right cash) - both cars will give 350bhp all day long, because the engine was built (and mapped) with safety in mind and huge tolerances to handle the power.

I'm fairly sure that mine could now handle 2 bar with ease - with a bigger turbo, it would probably give around 450bhp. The gearbox would be a pile of swarf and chewed teeth and the clutch would be toast, but the engine would be fine.

decisions, decisions....

As you may know my ringlands cracked running 350-360bhp. Originally I thought this was down to the pistons not being up to the job, as the previous owner had the car RR'd many times to check the fuelling. I also had it checked myself 2 days before she went pop and the fuelling was fine.

Since then I have discovered that the methanol/water injection jet was way too big. I think this was done to bring the AFR down without the need of bigger injectors. This really isn't the best solution as the methanol isn't injected into each cylinder but into the intake. Leighton found when mapping the car with this jet the fuelling was seriously effected, this is why the methanol isn't currently being used on my car.

This is a VERY good point. There is a very big difference between an occasional blat to the redline in 3rd gear, and regular pulls to the redline in 4th. I'm sure there are lots of tuned coupes out there that run plug and play chips that are fine on the road, but take them to a track and things would be different.

I'm pretty sure that Luke's car is not running forged internals?

That's interesting - I know that your previous engine was pushed hard on occasion, and boost was pretty high as well. I think it managed 50,000 miles when tuned, which I think is acceptable for a very tweaked 2lr engine - but then I guess it just depends on how many miles you are going to do in the car.

Another reason not to run Aquamist then......(hopes this thread does not go off on a tangent.)

You are correct Si, the engine did get pushed very hard. And thats the way it should be, the performance of these cars can't be used properly on the road. I'm not complaining at all that the engine went pop as I still had a car with thousands spent on it. I'm not sure that too many miles were actually spent on the RS though.

I still think Aquamist is a good modification, but shouldn't be used to fuel the car. Bigger injectors is the way to go!

Guys,

All good comments, keep them coming, not too worried if it deviates slightly away from the original question.

Jules.

You're right - my mistake - Luke is running bolt-on goodies only (lots of them mind )

Just to add that my engine went pop after running 350bhp on standard internals and a GT28RS. It was great fun, really responsive and very little lag and then the middle piston melted....

Anything over 325bhp and 320ftlbs of torque and you are living on borrowed time.

What spec are you running now?

What boost were you running when your piston melted?

Out of interest Richard how were you fuelling the 350bhp?

Mark, I was on the limit of the standard injectors with a 3 bar FPR. The car was live mapped at perfect touch.

I was also using the water / methanol injection. My spec at the time was almost identical to Joe's but my car was marginaly quicker than Joes with a slightly better spoolup.

After the piston melted, I went for a full rebuild with forged internals. My current spec is currently almost identical to TorboJ's as our engines were built side by side by TrickyMex.

The only real difference between my spec and TuurboJ's is that I have more head work and a GT2871 wit the .86 housing. Currently at 420bhp and 416ft/lbs of Torque!

Hi Jules,

I have driven since 55 200 km (some 34 000 miles) with GT turbos, first was GT28RS (0.86) and now I have GT3071R (0.86). With std internals I drove some 70 000 miles and always above 350 bhp (torque +350 lb-ft, last 1.5 year +400 bhp).
Now last August I changed internals, but the OE ones are in excellent shape. Like there has been OE turbo with OE setup.

So, in my point of view the "safe or reliable setup" consist from many different points, which all has something to do with the engine last/failure.

Did you ever managed to test Jamies Coupe, he did have the GT28RS (0.64) and was well above the 300 bhp mark?

If you only seek for the bhp value, the 350 bhp can be reached with some 1.35 - 1.4 bar boost. With that boost the torque stays in decent level and the engine will more likely stand without any prolems.

One example (the other way around) is my friend, he did melt his piston with only 319 bhp. Okay the turbo was GT28R, so it was quite in the limit.

Other friend of mine did have 445 bhp (GT3071R) with OE internals and never had any problems. Now he has forged internals too.


-Jari-

do you know what jet size you were using?

Good write up Jari (I was wondering weh nyou were going to post - are you well?)

I think your post is very well balanced and your point centres around how well set up the car is both mechanically but importantly from a mapping capability perspective. This is why I think that 350bhp (ball park) can be reliably reach without fear of catastrophic failure. I am sure that great progress has been made in the 3/4 or so years since people have been regularly upgrading to the various now well known turbos and this includes both technical/mechanical upgrades, how they are fitted and how well they are then mapped.

I have a sneaky feeling that a lot of the engines with melted pistons might be that way as a result of too muchy boost being dialed in over an above what the engine was capable of handling, coupled with in-efficient mapping then it's a recipee for disaster.

I can remember Jamie's car very well but am not sure what power it ran (maybe 340bhp?), can you remember Dan20VT's car? This ran a GT28RS with 0.86 at about 330-340bhp but was always for some reason quicker than Coupes with bigger turbos and apparently more power, I am sure he did a 13.0 second 1/4 mile and this was with a slipping clutch and road tyres! A fast car on the road and I am sure his engine never went pop.

Some great comments on this thread and some very interesting reading of Owners experience. I can fully understand why an owner would want to go to uprated internals and then with it a bigger turbo and more power, however, from a cost perspective it would push a Coupe away from being an Ownership prospect for me.

Jules.

That's impressive.....must be a monster on the road?

It is certainly a handfull, especially with the crappy pads I have on it at the moment

lets say i went for the full forged route what would be a safe power level? i would really like atleast 60k out of the engine and ideally over 400bhp to make the forge route worth while

If you rebuild the engine with forged internals, providing the engine is put together well and all the barings pumps etc are replaced, you should be OK all the way to 500+bhp.

But it won't be cheap as TuboJ said.

Its just gearboxes you have to start worrying about!

Im runing standard Internals yes but my torque is only 301lbs, Torque is what ends up killing standard internals so at 300lbs im in Good tolerence, if i opened up the exhaust to Full 3" then maybe it wouldnt help engine life as would give me more torque & top end power but i havent and atm at 1.4bar it is more than quick enough. It only makes 350bhp at the top end so if your gonna live on the Redline every day then yeah its gonna be push & shove but if your just driving in blats here and there, track days here and there its fine. My car is fueling perfectly and engine is still as healthy as ever.


with torque being lower than it could be id say if looked after it will be fine for many miles to come.

Which is why I've stopped (that and the fact I use it in heavy traffic, which means a paddle clutch isn't really a viable options, which in turn limits me to a Helix organic, which in turn, limits me to about 400bhp / 350 lb-ft)

However, I still killed the synchro on 4th gear which required a gearbox strip & rebuild - thankfully, Trevor had a full set of internals lying around from his race car, so I did it on the cheap.

so really 400bhp and 350lb-ft is where you want to stop. anything more is issues with other parts of the car.
i can see how your car is safe luke due to the lower torque but how does it deal with the extra heat futher up the rev range and extra boost?

My car has monstrous levels of torque which is great fun, but I am starting a gearbox fund now, as I think it just a matter of time.

Oh, and Nigel, the Paddle clutches aren't 'that' bad. I am quite used to mine now...

Hah. When I drove Joe's (now Eldinho's) that paddle clutch was a nightmare. Or a joke; I'm still not sure which.

Your c/r is slightly lower than jasons aswell mate

I think there is more to come from your car still with a bit more mapping and now your intercooler has been cleaned out

I've driven paddle-clutched cars - I agree, they aren't horrible to drive, but compared with a "normal" clutch, they are difficult

On mine, I can slip the clutch in first or second gear and pull away without even touching the throttle - its very controllable.

With a paddle, it WILL be grabby, and at low revs, it will stall the engine, so you end up having to dial in 1500+ rpm just to move three feet in traffic.

Tiresome, especially with a 3" exhaust

Nope - I'll stick with my organic - if I need to cope with more power, I'll find a more controllable way, such as twin-plate

Oh same here I think, now that I have a new clutch I know.. Synchro on 4th gear.
Is it really worth it to rebuild, or is a new box cheaper?

The irony now Neil, Eldinho's new paddle clutch is the best I have ever driven. In fact I REALLY don't think Mark knows how good his Coupe is...

As for a reliable 350bhp, well Neil has hit it squarely on the head, reliable in terms of what? There is a quantum leap when going from normal driving to full throttle redline activities. You could do a lot of things when building a car, more so at the factory level, but everything is done to a budget. Some will take it to the Nth degree and not accept anything less, others will be totally ignorant and "tune" accordingly. For most people getting the right balance is key, and with this approach you can have a reliable 350bhp.

I would also note that most "tuned" cars are killed by bad tuning. Too much boost, too much torque are the inherent danger for a standard piston and rod so we look to keep that in check, but when you start melting pistons, burning valves, bending rods, bending valves, spinning bearings... none of these are symptomatic of the "level" of tune, it's either a poor build, poor tuning, negligence or plain old bad luck.

I drove Marks car quite a lot when Joe had it and the clutch was horrible. I would not have lived with it. In fact it was one of the major reasons Joe sold the car.

However they really do mellow with age. And it is probably much better now. I am really happy with mine. It is much better than others I have driven, and I can even do hill starts quite happily.

on the paddle clutch issue, I've managed 20K km on JohnS s/h paddle clutch it is still hard, it is still grippy, yes you do need 1300-1500rpm to get the thing rolling and yes I avoid taking the car to Athens traffic jams. It does take a lot of abuse though and if you're happy doing 200kg on the leg press on the bench on the gym you should be fine

V.

just out of interest how much differance does say the extra 70-80 bhp on a coop? so rather than 400bhp like nigel and going full forge engine at great expense would it but worth the extra power and cost over say a safer 320-330 bhp?
some people like nigel have said a decent well set up 320 bhp would beat his on twisties due to the less lag and more useable power range.

Thanks again Leighton for the comments, I really do love the car I think I'm just being stupid even thinking of selling it. I may just turn it into a weekend car. Anyway I don't want to go off topic.

The clutch has now done around 8k, I would say the clutch got 10 times better between 1k miles and 3k miles. I now don't like driving with normal clutches anymore. They just don't seem purposeful.

In reply to peanuthead, my car makes around 380 at 1.25 bar. so at 1.1 bar (which I drive around with on most days) I will probably be making 360ish bhp. When I turn the boost up the difference is a world apart. Its probably more the jump in torque which makes it feel like that but it feels like a totally different car.

Nigel is probably right about a car with a smaller turbo keeping up or being faster on twisties. But they would have to be quite tight twisties in my opinion. Don't forget if you go forged you usually have an extra 500+ rpm to play with as the limiter will be raised in most cases, so you just have to be a bit more clever with gear selection. As long as you can be on boost from second upwards then the more powerful car will be faster IMO.

Also these larger turbo's aren't quite as "laggy" (boost threshold to keep Beggars happy ) as what people make out (unless you go too big). My 3071R doesn't seem to feel much different than the RS. Obviously I have things like raised CR and headwork but you should be getting these mods if you are going forged anyway.

i see where you are coming from as i know it will be quiker and 70bhp is alot of power but it about 3k more to build so it would have to be worth it.
so the main thing is if you make sure you stay on boost then you are ok but whats town driving like?

you would be nuts to sell now mate you really would be.

the head work would be a must for me as it makes the car run much better and you get better mpg when crusing

It probably isn't worth it, obviously it depends on what you want to do with your car and how long you want to keep it. I do want to compete in TOTB one year, so really I need the extra power. (I think that says I should keep it).

Town driving is fine, and it actually can be quite civilised. It drives great down the motorway and with only having to give a tiny bit of gas the 3" exhaust isn't even that boomy. Again though it depends on your tolerance levels with things like noise. I can live with them quite happily.

Single plate paddle clutches will always be a pain to use - though they do get a bit easier after a good thrashing, you can get the same or higher power potential from a Twin or triple plate, but you are looking at a grand plus...

A big factor with Eldino's car is that it is a 2.1? and the CR is higher, + also some headwork? This is all going to help getting a bigger turbo spinning...

about 2047cc I think it is! 9:1 CR and yep headwork

The extra 47cc makes no difference in my opinion. The head work on my car seemed to make it much better off boost though. It is resonably civilised in town now.

However,the biggest gripe I have with my car is the incredibly noisy 3" exhaust I have. It really annoys me

Yup - same as mine then - 83mm pistons @ 9:1 CR

I've always said that a 300bhp Coupe is really not that far behind a 400bhp Coupe in the real world (ie away from the track or drag strip)

At Curborough sprint course (VERY tight & twisty), Leighton's car was awful - it couldn't get on boost until halfway down the straight. Dave_t's car (small turbo - might even be standard) - was by far the fastest car there, mainly because of some well-considered handling mods and some trackday tyres

If I were in Jules' position, I'd go for 330bhp on a small turbo and have the handling sorted - the car will be 90% as quick as a 400bhp car when on track, about the same as a 400bhp Coupe on a decent A road and quite possibly quicker on a twisty B road.

Dave's car is on a standard turbo and 1.2 bar.

Cheers nigel that makes me feel so much better after I've just spent ££££'s on modding my car to get 400+ bhp lol

i am sure a 400bhp car will give you a much bigger kick in the back and the most roads i drive down are a roads or motorways so really 400bhp would be better for me but at a big cost

Don't get me wrong - 400bhp is HUGELY entertaining, but its not used all that often - I run at 1.2 bar for the daily slog, which probably equates to about 340 - 350bhp. Even at this lowly boost level, Its fast enough to destroy almost anything on the road, right up to M3s and most 911s. M5s and M6s need 1.5 bar and Ferrari 360s need a bit more.

However, the power is at the top end and its VERY rare that I get to use the entire rev band. When you think about it, all I have to do is hit my (increased) redline in second gear and I've broken the motorway speed limit. If I do it in 3rd gear, I'm in ban territory. If I do it in 4th gear, I'm heading for serious trouble. If I do it in 5th or 6th, I'm looking at a custodial sentence

Therefore, I'm VERY selective about when I chose to use the performance.

At some rev points, a small turbo will be 50-75bhp UP on my power output, which makes it quicker (and easier to drive) on public roads

I wouldn't swap mine for anything this side of JohnS or Taz's cars, but if I sold mine and fancied doing it all again, I'd do it differently.

in fact - when I drove my son's 16v n/a, I found myself thinking "this is plenty for everyday driving". Its only 1% of the time that I can exploit the extra bhp, which means the £xx,xxx I've spent is pretty poor value for money

And just to bring all of this into perspective....

back in 2002, when I had the 355, I went on a Coupe meet in East Anglia. On the drive through some gorgeous A and B roads, I had a play with a mildly-modded Coupe - perhaps 280bhp. I REALLY struggled to stay with him and couldn't have passed him if I'd wanted to. OK - he knew the roads and I didn't, but I was following, which is MUCH easier.

I still maintain that a 300 - 330 bhp Coupe with good suspension and brakes will be just as quick as a 400bhp Coupe for 99% of the time. Only when the 400bhp car gets to use the full rev range will the difference be seen.

Jules - save your money, get the car you showed me and take it to the SAFE limit of the standard internals, with a good GT turbo (GT28RSR??). Spend a few quid on suspension and brakes and drive it with the smug satisfaction that you're almost as quick as the big power cars, but you've spent just a couple of grand to get there. If the big power bug bites, you can always develop the car in stages, but I reckon you'll be happy below 350bhp

And therein the point, of course. In day-to-day driving, what matters is bottom end torque, not absolute power. It's the big V8 technique of being able to put your foot down and rip up the tarmac at slow speeds that shifts you... I might venture to suggest that a 1200 Mk1 Punto is probably quicker than the majority of coupes to 30mph; the coupe has barely woken up.

Back in the day before Joe sold his car to Eldinho, he couldn't get away from me on the twisties... the shortest straight, and off he went, but while it was twisty, he was mine. And others who have been to Red Lion meets when we've had a run will testify that the 16NA does not hang around.

Is it time for my perennial suggestion that the best mod for a 20vt might be a *smaller* turbo? Less top end power, but more torque at the bottom... it'd be spinning all the time. (I recall driving a 1050 turbo 127 - an absolute hoot!)

can i just Nigel that Dave only beat my time at Curborough on his last run once I'd gone home, so to say his car was by far the the fastest is a bit unfair on myself and the others. My car was on fairly worn road tyres, i'm sure some sticky track tyres would have helped a fair bit. I was caught off boost a few times, but nothing too drastic. Nothing like the lagmeister was experiencing. Not taking anything away from dave though. Great car and some great driving

Oi! The lagmeister wasn't that far behind either, and Nigel it wasn't awful!!!??? Curborough is a sprint track, everything is 1st and 2nd gear at pretty slow speeds until the straight finish, so it suits the low to midrange punch. Certainly nothing like a proper track or your average country road, I would have swapped turbo if I had known

It's worth someone getting some dyno print outs of peoples coupes with different setups and over laying them to see where different setups are making there power in the rev range


It's quite interesting and can give a good idea of what setup suits

Neil, your spending a bit too much time in the tuning section these days! Are you hankering after more power?

I must admit that I really liked my car when it had the GT28RS, but it went pop, so that's why I went the forged rebuilt route.

So, I suggest you go for no more than 320bhp, and just keep putting cash aside in case you break something expensive.

Leighton - sorry - "awful" was a bit strong!. However, it was just a very graphic example of a big-turbo'd car on a very tight twisty track - it just never got into its stride, simply because it didn't get above 4k rpm until it was on the main straight.

Mine wouldn't have been much better, so I doubt that Eldinho's would have been either.

However, if we do the next FCCUK trackday at Silverstone, the results would be completely the opposite - Dave wouldn't see which way we went

Squid, nah, just looking for hints as to what will break when/if I get a 20vt... step one, don't buy one that's been messed around with!

Very true about the N/A models on the twisties - I had a B road blat in my coupe (about 300bhp at the time) with a couple of 20V N/A cars with no suspension mods, and they were just as quick until we got to a D/C. However you just dont get the turbo kick of the turbo version - obviously. For a town car or motorway cruiser then I would be fine with an N/A coupe I think.....

The only issue I would have with the 16v n/a as a motorway cruiser is the revs - its a fairly "busy" engine - circa 4,000rpm @ 80mph IIRC - at that speed, my 20VT is still at less than 3,000rpm, which makes it pretty relaxed.

Agreed. After fourteen years, I'm *still* reaching for 6th. I have wondered about a 16vt final drive, but that would blunt it throughout the range somewhat, and would certainly make it sluggish moving from lane two to lane three in top.

That said - I don't have an issue deciding to drive to Skye or Berlin.

3700 at 80, around 3500 at 75, from memory.

Agreed Nigel, but I'll hopefully have an E55 AMG with uprated crank / water pulley kit, uprated heat exchanger / intercooler pump and remap for when the big power bug bites

Jules.

Good informative thread.

So what's your decision Cyclone?

If I go the Coupe route then I reckon I'll be heading for a std Coupe to upgrade to a GT28RS with all of the associated bits to make it "reliable" , something like this:

GT28RS 0.64
- 14psi wastegate actuator
- Oil restrictor
- Oil feed pipe
- Oil return flange
- Oil return gasket
- T25 gasket
- 5 stud gasket
- Exhaust studs/nuts

3" downipe (5 stud flange)
FMIC + pipework
SIP + Cone and protection
Walbro 255 fuel pump
Fuel pump battery feed
3.8bar fuel pressure regulator
Colder spark plugs
Uprated EBV (ecu boost control)
Race Cat

Remap

Jules.

You forgot a clutch.

brakes and suspension are also not in the list...

Nice Jules. Standard engine then

I think this will put you in the range of 320-340hp at a moderate boost level and good spool up.

and I think it will be be reliable

I know.

The std car I've seen has a recent clutch so that can be ran until it decides to give up.

Suspension wise it won't be being thrashed around bends etc too often so will just go for lowered springs / may need wishbones etc etc.

Brakes wise then just better specced pads (Ferodo 2500?) and better discs, although last time I had a Coupe then uprated discs were a grey area.

Jules.

For a road car I would run mintex 1144's - if the discs are in good condition leave them until they need to be replaced.

Lowering springs alone are worse than standard suspension.

fair do's about the clutch - but a standard one wont last long with the RS's thumpy power delivery, so you may well be limited or have issues when getting it mapped.

Here is a comparison between TB28 (controlled by PRV, FMIC, 2.75" Blueflame, RC), GT28RS 0.64 (Saint EBC, 3" exhaust, FMIC, RC) and TD04-19T (AEM EBC, FMIC, 2.75" Blueflame, RC). All three setups have been tested on the same RR.



TB28: 1 bar @ 3050 rpm
GT28RS: 1 bar @ 3250 rpm
19T: 1 bar @ 3300 rpm

As you can see the OE turbo has best spool up. 19T is little bit slower than RS but not so much. This shows that a ball bearing turbo is not so much faster in spool up than a journal bearing turbo.

As a comparison, here is my RR graph from when I had a GT28RS on my car.

At the time it had a 2.25" decat exhaust and standard internals with a Walbro fuel pump and a live map.

I have the gone for the 300-350bhp on stock internals (made 325bhp and 302ibft on a dastek dyno with outside temps of 37 degrees, should make more torque and bhp in the colder weather) and i would say its very drivable round town (mine seems to be very good off-boost).
On the twisties its alot of fun, but can bite back afew times as it spools up very hard just over 3k and likes to torque steer
But give it a straight bit of road and its really quick, i was following lucifer's Monaro with 500bhp and he wasn't pulling away very much, so they can hold there own till silly speeds.
I would definitely recommend the gt28rsr and a fc map (what Leighton has done to my car this time round is unbelievable, 200% better then it was with a gtec2)