so near but yet so far?

well the time came today to finally put the key in the ignition and try and bring back to life my rebuilt 16vt........
But Nooooooooo!
won't start! So so close to firing but never quite got there! BUGGER!

More than one person has came to the conclusion its the cam timing, so going have to wait for the guy who actually rebuilt the lump to make an appearance monday to see if he can sort it!

Regarding the timing.... I'm running columbo & bariani lancia delta 16v turbo Max fast road cams.... Surely they can get the relevant timing's off the C&B website and all will be hunky doory?
or is it not that simple?

Nick

Do you think he may have timed the cams as per standard cams?

No mate that's not the case as he must have tried this at some point as he specificly said the valves Hit with the original fiat timing!
would he have just tried to time it up by himself.... Is that even possible?
the trouble is that the guy who built it never actually stripped it originally otherwise he would obviously Marked it up!
really frustrating..... Was hoping to get it back, run in and flea mapped all in time to go watch Nigel at TOTB..... Don't really wanna drive my work van there Lol..... Still do-able i suppose?!

Nick

Do you have a widget or anything of the like? If your lucky it may just be a timing sensor is off.

no matey... No widget! I hope your right

well i'm off to the south of France in the morn.... A little LESS relaxed than i could have been.... Lol...
back late monday afternoon.. Straight off the plane straight on the phone to see if its been sorted! Fingers crossed!

i'll update this thread asap... Hopefuly its just a small teething problem!

Nick

C&B Maximum fast road cams shouldn't have been a problem timed up using the original timing marks.

Really? God knows what's he's done then.......
really hope its good news when i ring up on monday?
if not...... It maybe engine out again!
Beautiful.... F###ing beautiful!

Nick

Why do people think its the cams?

Have you made all the usual fuel system/ignition system checks? ie. all injectors plugged in, fuel getting to fuel rail, ht leads on right way round, etc. etc.

i don't know why they think this buddy? But atleast 3 different
guys have said the same thing.... One of whom is an absolute guru on lancia delta intergrale's... Guy called Tank Barret!
i'm presuming they've done the usual checks you mentioned?
i went down last night to have a look and everything looks and sounds (noise of fuel pump) as it should be ready for start up??

nick

i would get them to show you that its sparking and there is fuel coming out.

i know it sounds mad but may be a you tube clip of what the car is doing on turn over may help people get the right idea of whats going on..

i have no clue about timing the C&B cams up... fingers crossed you can get it sorted.

why not down load barnacles software and buy the leads off ebay and check for fault??

i'll wait and see what i come back to monday first dude...
if probably persists dowloading barnacles software sounds like a good option!

nick

mate, you must be going mad.

also, get them to check every thing again.

fingers crossed its just some thing stupid like a sensor.

most people jump conclusions...like the cams, becasue there hard to time up and they had to fiddle with them they instantly think thats the problem!!

good luck!

cheers buddy!

Nick

From the C&B site if you look.

HOW SHALL YOUR CAMSHAFTS BE FITTED?
Colombo & Bariani camshafts can be fitted utilizing exactly the original reference marks.For inlet camshafts with phase variator specific fitting instructions are included in the kit.

They might be 180* out?

100% sure you have the coil connection on the right coil, swap them round and give it another try just in case.

I doubt its that, I did that to my 16VT before and the engine ran fine, started perfectly. Just went into limp mode with a 4k rpm limiter.

Well got back to find out that timing is spot on and that car has been running but pretty rough..... It seems my cam shaft sensor is in a sorry state..... Replacement to be fitted Wednesday !
Hopefully she'll run a lot better then?

Nick

Good man Nick, all sounds positive now at least

Yeah seems a little more positive.... Can't to hear her up and running properly! Been COOPLESS for nearly a year now!
Mind you it was longer than that the first time it was rebuilt!
Infact....... I've just realised in all the time I've owned it it's been off the road more than on......

nick

But soon it will all be worth it. Good too hear you/they have found the problem.

well she breathed today..... heard her fired up for the first time.... sound rough at mo though as downpipe is severely blowing... flange needs re-welding at slight different angle!

there is one thing that is baffleing the garage though.. since fitting new cam phase sensor engine will not turn over with it connected?
Strangely though it WILL fire with cam sensor disconnected??
there is very slight misfire on revving also but revs come down very smoothly... could this be due to old fuel.... fuel is probably about 6 months old!
To eliminate this i plan to drain fuel tommorrow and Get a clean tank of fuel and was thinking of putting some injector cleaner in there, will this be ok?

The cam sensor thing is baffleing though, do we think it needs adjusting i.e twisting slightly or could dirty fuel be the main problem?
(SOOOOOOOO CLOSE)

Nick

Hi, as I said in the PM, the cam sensor is only used during the starting phase, so it won't be the cause of the rough running.

I'll try to to a picture of my cam sensor tomorrow so, with any luck, you'll be able to see its orientation and get it starting properly.

I think draining the fuel is a good idea, as long as you haven't got 50 quid's worth in there!

Personally I'd be more inclined to suspect the engine builders haven't timed up the cams quite right. Have you personally checked the timing marks on all three pulleys? Have they adjusted the vernier pulleys (if fitted)? Either that or they haven't quite put something else back together right. Not saying this garage are numpties, just these things are easily missed - it's very rare that an engine fires up first time after a rebuild perfectly without any problems!

the cam timing has been checked and re checked and they are spot on......
i'm hoping it the fuel or could i have a bad earth?
my current boost controller is also disconnected at mo, i don't suppose that has any bearing on it?

so is the the cam phase sensor in the wrong position then as it won't start when connected?

nick

the cam timing has been checked and re checked and they are spot on......
Okay good that rules that out
i'm hoping it the fuel or could i have a bad earth?
Could be either will have to try one, then the other

my current boost controller is also disconnected at mo, i don't suppose that has any bearing on it?
doubtable. Is it electrically disconnected, or are the pipes loose? Though if the small pipes are loose, the most affect it should have would be to make the car idle a bit quicker

so is the the cam phase sensor in the wrong position then as it won't start when connected?
Sounds very much like it. If the car starts with trouble when the sensor is disconnected, but won't start at all when the sensor is connected, then the sensor is almost certainly at fault.
Also, have you checked the crank sensor?

Hey Nick, any new news?

Here you go. Pics as promised. Adjust the cam sensor to the position shown.


I dunno, Taking time out of my day off. I'm so good to you!

sorry kj..... I hadn't even realised you'd posted some pics... Sorry...lol!

anyways.... UPDATE (still baffled)!

car still won't start with cam sensor connected but does just about catch after a good few tries!
its been decided the car is running stupidly rich at anything below 2000 revs and will not idle on it own! Once reved beyond this it revs up beautifully!
we know its rich as they put new spark plugs in when i was there and after showing me the problem with the idle, we pulled a plug out and it was literally BLACK!

they think its because i have much larger injectors in but i explained to them that the car was mapped to those injectors by flea before.... And now the car is not THAT MUCH dynamically different....... Although... When flea mapped it my compresions were whey down on what they should have been on all 4 pots?
now running slightly larger turbo but i suppose that will have no bearing on idle anyways?

also injector light is staying on on start up..... Had this probably before when throttle position sensor was not wired in properly!

Only need to sort this idle problem now... So can anyone think of a reason?? Would it overfuel for any reason if something wasn't connected right?

HELP

Nick

could having the cam sensor disconnected on start up put the car into 'limp mode'.....?

desperately need some answers peeps!

nick

morning peeps!....

No ideas then?.... I promised the garage a few possible answers this morning after i'd asked the forum guru's last night...... Is everyone baffled??

nick

Having the cam sensor disconnected doesn't seem to put it into limp mode. I once drove around for a couple of days without realising I'd disconnected it! The only difference was the car was very hard to start.

That fact that you say the car revs well after 2000 rpm makes me think it's more likely an ignition fault then a fuel fault.

Do all of these things in order and tell me what happened after each one.

>Pull all four plugs. Are they all black or just one? Just one points to an injector fault. All four more likely fueling fault, or ignition fault. Before you refit them clean them or they won't spark properly and exacerbate the problem. Any difference?

>Replace all four HT leads with new ones. Just any that fit for now.

>Disconnect the battery negative terminal and then the ecu connector. When you reconnect them the fuel trims will be reset. Any difference? (TBH, if you've had the engine out for months, the fuel trim should already be reset)

>Disconnect the green plug from the lambda sensor. Again any difference with it disconnected?

>Can you get a gauge on there to check fuel pressure?
What FPR do you have, is it an adjustable one?

>I left these till last because you'll probably have to order these and wait for them to come:

>Try a new coil pack and new, er, ignition 'thingie' I can't remember what it's called! The thing with the two connector that sits in front of the battery.

BTW I hope you aren't paying your garage much, These are just basic fuel/ignition system checks. Your garage should have bloody checked these things themselves
No offence to you at all. This is what you pay them for.

thanks for your input kj.....
when you say fuel trims will be reset...
reset to what Flea set them at, or back to a 'Factory setting'? If a factory setting then that will be the probably as i have 670 injectors in?

one other thing..... When they were first
trying to start the car someone spotted that the earth cable from my fuel pump with live feed was not connected....(I can only assume its been like that for a while?) Although it seemed the pump was still priming..... Would this in some way INCREASED the flow of the pump now its been Earthed properly?

Nick

NP, mate.

It will be reset to what Flea set them at. Over time the ecu 'adjusts' itself. Unplugging the ecu would reset any adjustments made due to, say, a faulty lambda sensor. It doubt it's that, but it's easy to rule out.

As for the fuel pump earth. That's weird, how did the pump run if one side of the wiring wasn't connected?! If the electrical current was previously finding it's way to earth via some other dodgy means, now that it has a proper earth that would make huge difference to the fuel flow. If the car was mapped with the dodgy wiring, the fuel map will now be junk.

Still do all the other checks I mentioned, but bear that in mind.

update.....!

well car still won't run/idle on it own although everything seems to have been checked and re checked!

car still seems to be running stupidly rich on idle... The only thing that has yet tobe checked/changed is the crank sensor?
would this being faulty cause the car the run rich on idle and also if it was faulty explain why car won't start with cam sensor connected??

HELP!

nick

is there a 'widget' or alike for the 16vt that i could use to find out wher my fault is ?

nick

yes all you need is some cables and barnacles startreck software probably in the faq for the widget

Nick, in response to your PM (and please note I've not been across the full thread in detail) here's a few thoughts...

First, the widget or startrek software will tell you if there are faulty sensors, or things like software learning modes at their limits, and will give you running data once it's started.

Obviously with an engine rebuild, it's hard to be sure something hasn't been put back together incorrectly, but it looks as if you've done all the obvious checks.

Rich at low revs, poor starting, and failure to idle suggests one of two things - either more fuel is arriving than the ECU is sending, or the ECU thinks there's more air arriving than really is.

If there's a leak in the air system (post throttle) then it would normally go lean as it sucks air in against manifold vacuum - though it *could* be a blocked MAP sensor pipe. Or, it could be a MAP sensor which is disconnected from the pipe in which case it would think the air is too high pressure at idle, but lean on boost. Or a dead or dodgy MAP sensor... that last will show on startrek as you can monitor the air pressure. Should be ~1000mb ignition on engine off, ~3-400 at idle, up to ~2100 on boost.

Alternatively, assuming that the engine was correctly mapped prior to the rebuild with the current injectors and fuel pressure regulator, then it's possible that one injector has failed in the stuck open position. Startrek can't tell you anything about that on a 16; the ECU doesn't monitor the injectors. You *may* be able to get a stethoscope in there to confirm that all four are ticking.

Hi Nick, reading this, have you connected the earth again??

have you tried running it with it disconnected and connected?

with the earth connected it will increase the flow massivley!!
i think you need to go with Neil on this and get the star trek system on to it and see what problems there are...

wild one...not sre if this is going to help in ANY way...but have to tried putting the standard chip back in to see if it runs any better?

Not if he's got uprated injectors!

so would fuel pump still work even if it wasn't earthed AT ALL.... If so there is a very good chance if was probably mapped with no earth.... And it is definitely earthed at the mo!

in response to barnacle.... Thanks for your input buddy.... Regarding injectors possibly sticking open..... As all 4 plugs get sooted up extremely quickly that would have to mean all 4 injectors were ALL sticking.... Right... Which i would say is unlikely!?

if it turns out fuel pump will work without an earth then i'll go and disconnect it this afternoon and report back!

nick

injectors are 630's as apposed to standard 384's.... Alittle bigger....

sorry...im trying to pack for holiday and im losing the plot a bit (Barnacle you know what i mean)

try the earth mate, i hope it stops running so rich!

The fuel pump uses - from memory - a switched earth back through the cut-off switch. <hurries off to check circuit diagram>

Ah, my mistake - positive supply is switched, but the earth passes back through the inertial cut-off switch. You don't want to be bypassing that. If that wire's not connected, the pump won't run.

With regard to the injectors - it's possible, since the injectors are all in the same plenum, that excess fuel from one is distributing to the next sucking cylinder once the guilty cylinder closes the inlet valve. You might perhaps though expect the adjacent cylinders to be more affected than the most remote.

Hi Nick. I don't think I mentioned it to you but I asked the garage to test a few things on the MAP sensor for the same reason that Barnacle mentioned. I'll give you a shout when the get back to me with the results.

I might have to give them a bit of a kick up the bum tomorrow if they don't get back to me by the end of the day!

good idea.... They seem like they need tobe BOOTED into action!

nick

hi peeps...
tried chip today.... car starts alot quicker than before though the same problems remain.... won't idle... only starts with cam sensor disconnected..... once started, if cam sensor is reconnected when running car cuts out immediately!

tested map sensor by checking voltage while sucking on hose and Voltage dropped from 1.8 down to 1.2..... does this sound about right???? i'm hoping not.... lol!

what else can be causing what seems tobe massive over fueling on idle?

nick

Mate, this is dragging on now, you must be getting well hissed off!
Cant you just go and leave it with Rog at Poweritalia or Flea at FC Performance for a few weeks and let them sort it?

Something isnt right somewhere, obviously, and I know you know that, but im sorry I cant help directly, just an idea above.

Anyhow, good luck, let us know when it is up and running, maybe with a vid too.

That does sound right, as when you go onto boost, the voltage will go up, but i have no idea if the value is correct for doing so

someone has advised me to check the right connectors are on the right sensors.... I.e cam sensor and say idle control valve as they have same connectors?

also would a dodgy lamda sensor cause the problems i'm having?

nick

Map sensor has a range of about 0.5 to 4.5 volts across 0-2.4 bar, from comparison with standard Motorola types

Just PM'd you back. No the lambda sensor won't be the cause of your problems.

update....

finally got another garage to have a look at it today, been a nightmare though as i've had to wait to get the permission of the guy who rebuilt the engine to let someone else get the cam cover off and 'have a look'... (sounds strange, i know but i really can't be arsed to explain!)

so we've took cam cover off, then they manualy turned the engine until piston 1 was at the very top..... By the way this means foooook all to me, but they seem to think the cams DO look out!
so now gotta wait for engine builder to come over, confirm they ARE out then sort it!
they did show me why they thought they looked out by showing me the position of no.1 lobe on both shafts when the piston was at the top! But its all a little mind blowing to me!!

so it looks like your timing is out!

do you not have C&B cams in this?
(i have heard they are a b*tch to time up)

if its a case of a mis-timed engine it should be an easy fix!

fingers crossed for you mate!

Tanc Barret are out your way, there good with the lancia Delta's maybe worth asking them.

Erm, if you like junk yards. For real advice - go over to Neil Smith at NJS in Pershore, he will set you straight, and never ever beats around the bush.http://www.njsalfaromeo.co.uk/

tanc barrett is literally 2-3 miles from me and yes it does look like a junk yard.... Apparently knows his stuff though...... I mentioned earlier in the thread that he'd been to the garage while my engine was running rough and he said straight away it was cam timing!

Apparently the no.1 lobes are meant to be at the same angle (but mirror image) at TDC, and mine aren't?!

nick

so Nick, why not just bite the bulit and get some one to time the engine up?

all this wasted time and money when its a case of timing...

I had the same problem as you with the cam sensor Nick, it was the plugs to the coils being the wrong way round. It would only run with the cam sensor unplugged, I swapped the coil plugs (from the loom) round and the problem was solved. Youve probably also got a 4k RPM limiter in place as well, but sounds like you havent made 4k rpm yet! Hope this helps.

Not sure if this helps, but this was from when GC set my head up, can't quite work out from these photo's if the cams have been set at TDC

Thier not set at TDC Begbie, I thought I had a nice photo of a pair of cams fitted up but can't find it unfortunatly.

Why the hell do you need permision to take off your OWN cam cover ??

because i'd been warned on more than one occasion that if anything todo with timing was tampered with by anyone other than the engine builder my guarantee on the engine would be invalid....!
anyways the position the cams are in if we look at it like the points of the cams are hands on clock are: inlet points to 7-8 mins..... Therfore the exhaust cam should point to 52-53 mins... But its more like 48-49....

hope this makes sense... Lol

nick

They don't always have to be perfectly symetrical (you can't tell much just by looking anyway), it depends on the FL timing from the cam manufacture some are 110/115 some are 108/108 etc. Ask your engine builder what it should be, if he does'nt know then something is wrong !

Have you done compression checks ? I know it's a new engine but you should see some similarity between pots

according to c&b web sight mine should be 110/110.... So symetrical! Garage that installed engine originally said they checked compressions and they were all between 170-175...
thought that was quiet high considering compressions should rise slightly once run in.... Shouldn't they??

Nick

Yeah well yeah in theory

A few degrees here and there is'nt going to stop it running anyhow.
Are the cams timed on the correct crankshaft revolution ie; not 180 deg out ?

i don't know but i will ask the question as both you and 1nro have both asked about the cams being 180 degrees out now in this thread....!
the car will simply not idle at all at mo.. Will just about start but then only run/idle above 2500/3000 revs.... Where it seems to revs perfectly??
should be seeing engine guy anyway within next few days!!

Nick

WTF? whats with the arsey comment, was only trying to help the guy FFS.

Oh yeah I see, one step ahead as usual Nik !
It's quite easy to get wrong if your not familiar with the 16v, especially if youv'e got adjustable pullys fitted.

Take it how you like but thats the reality of that place sorry you are sensitive.

Nick can you just take a photo of it? It would help if number 1 cylinder was at top dead centre, that is when the big pulley on the end of the crank with its small notch in the outside is in line with the 20mm or so line on the crank cover – you can only see this with the inspection panel removed in the wheel arch. If this is all too much then whoever built your engine will have to confirm its not peculiar to the fiat most engines are the same so if he’s worth his salt then he’d be able to easily confirm if its right. The fact is runs at all make me think its in the ball park and a sensor might be the issue – maybe the cabling to the sensors they are easily damaged and the wires can be damaged, to run it only needs fuel, spark, compression, crank sensor, throttle sensor and cam sensor. I assume you changed round the spark leads on the coil pack to rule that out (normally it wont run at all). The car only knows where TDC is via the cam sensor in combination with crank wheel.

i haven't got adjustable pulleys... But i will ask the question.... Thanks 'Nik'.... Lol! ..... & Tricky of course!

Nick

actually nick I just re-read this saga, have you got the std injectors still, it sounds like its too righ which will foul the plugs and when they are wet with fuel they won't spark intead the current is bled to ground. If the cam timing was wildly out you'd get back fires in the inlet or exhaust. I'd shove the old injectors in to rule out the rich issue to an extent.

'The Saga'..... Lol!
it has been backfiring/popping.... At lower revs! I really really really hope it the cam timing....

Nick

ok, as long as it hasn't bent the valves you should come out of this ok - easily checked with a compression test, whens this chap coming to see it?

tomorrow or thurs.... As soon as he's been i'll update the thread buddy!....

Nick

Tanc's might not be as well organised as they might be (breaks my heart to think of the stuff lying out in the elements) but they do most definately know their way round the 16v engine, guys there doing it day in day out. Not sure why Richard is dissing them ...

My mate has taken his Delta there and they have always done a great job, 99% they have fitted c@b cams in his if not others, have you had a bad experience with them rich?

Because Nik due to a fundemental argument regarding incorrect information supplied by Barrett to someone who used to come on this forum. Horses for courses, might be alright for Nick, but I'd expect no such mistakes from someone claiming to be an expert (I'm sure you can understand that point of view Nik). Could be some element of hear say, but I had to prove the info given wrong and it was fundementally wrong. I'd not go there.

:)I don't know the nature of the misinfomation but I catch your drift, nobody is perfect though, mistakes can happen.

Nick,
If you have standard pullies then it's a simple job to set the engine at TDC and also check cam timing without taking the rocker cover off.
My guess after reading this thread is that your engine builder has put the exhause pulley on the inlet cam and visa versa.
Can you see the marks on the rear of each pulley when looking through the instection holes when the sparkplug cover is removed and the engine is at TDC?
To check the engine is timed correctly should take 5 mins, only things to remove are spark plug cover and a sparkplug.
Paul

Paul thats what I was thinking - but do both cams have the drive for the cam phase sensor? Or maybe the cam sensor isnt spinning without a drive?? - I cant remember if thats possible as I removed the distributor on my 16v.

this is entirely possible as the engine builder DID NOT take it to pieces.... The numty place that that stripped it could well have misinformed him to what parts were what...?
Also as the engine guy has been out and checked the timing once... If the pulley wheels are the wrong way then no matter how many times he checks it, it will be right 'to him' as he thinks the pulleys are correct.... Think I'll alert him to this possibility!

nick

By my reckoning (by calculation), at TDC on the inlet stroke and timed at 110 degrees and using your clockface notation, the inlet cam should be between 5 and 6 minutes past and the the exhaust cam at 43 minutes past. Each minute away from that will be 12 degrees out. So it looks like the inlet cam COULD be 50 degrees or more advanced than it should be and the exhaust cam 72 degrees advanced.

If this is the case (which may be down to the pulleys being on the wrong cams) I am sure that any cam signal would be so far out timing wise that the ECU would not be able to use it.

Gee, how can you tell all that

think you were right the first time before you edited it... Inlet should be at 17 (on clock face) and exhaust on 43.... This does seem to suggest that the cam wheels may be wrong way round.... Is this easy fix... i.e do-able with engine in?

nick

I'm sure I did the maths wrong late last night - and maybe messed it up again this morning, so I'll go through it here and maybe someone can spot a mistake.....

At TDC the inlet cam should be 55 (cam) degrees before full lift and the exhaust cam should be 55 (cam) degrees after full lift. On a clock face this would be approximately 9.2 minutes after the hour for the inlet cam and 39.2 minutes after the hour for the exhaust cam.

But each valve is inclined at 23 degrees, so looking at the cams from the front, the 'clock face' on the inlet cam needs to be rotated 23 degrees clockwise and the 'clock face' on the exhaust cam needs to be rotated 23 degrees anti-clockwise.

Turning the inlet cam clock face 23 degrees is the same as subtracting 3.8 minutes from the 'time' and a similar number of minutes would need to be added to the exhaust cam 'time'. That's how I arrived at 5(.333) minutes past and 43 minutes past

Last night I turned the clock faces the wrong way in my head (inlet cam anti-clockwise and exhaust cam clockwise) which gave, what I now think, was the wrong numbers.

I don't think the engine would run at all if the cam timing was as far out as I calculated last night, which is what made me look at it again!

Nope, I'm wrong again above! (But I was right last night!)

55 degrees before full lift on the inlet cam would mean the cam would be 9.2 minutes before the half hour on a clock face referenced to the inlet valve, not after mid day!

Adjusted by the 23 degrees/3.8 minutes to allow for the valve angle would mean the inlet cam would be at 17 minutes past the hour. The exhaust cam would still be at 43 minutes past the hour.

I think it's staggering that your engine runs at all with the inlet cam apparently so many degrees retarded!

Pictures might help eh, With pistons 1+4 at TDC (referenced by the marks on the bottom belt pully) you need to take off the crank front pullys to see it, the marks on the large outer pully that align with the belt cover or whatever are not at true tdc.

In the picture below is where the camshafts should point to, when the crank is lined up (roughly, these ones are timed at 115 deg not that you can tell exactly by looking) This is on No. 1 cylinder looking towards the back of the pullys from gearbox side.

If you have the cam pullys on the wrong way round, the cams will point in more or less opposite directions and this will put you 180 deg out of sync.

Tricky the notch on the harmonic balancer lines up fully with the long mark on the cam cover I check that. Its only compounded by the confusion of the 2 smaller marks. For a quick check they should be sufficient (its not as good as a real firm line on under I know but that involves taking the Alt and PAs belt away), but I'm not sure Nick will be able to do this at the moment? The balancer Nick on the end of the crank can only fit on one way - assuming the bolts have not been forced in. Tricky's picture shows you what you need to know.

well those cams are pointing pretty much the complete opposite to mine.... So that pretty much comfirms my cam pulley wheels are the wrong way round!
NUMPTY'S!!!

nick

If that is the case right now, with both the crank and the cam marks lined up.

Don't take the belt off and move any of the shafts, best to turn the whole engine untill the actual cams lobes are pointing like the picture, take off the belt, turn the crank only about 90 deg, swap the pullys over and line up the cam marks acuratley, then bring the crank back to it's tdc mark. Then fit belt, this will eliminate any valves clashing or piston hitting valves. Good luck

thanks Tricky..... Seems a simple fix!?

Nick

Hopefully, just be carefull.

What other mods have you done then ?

ok... Thanks for advise bud!

Mods:

C&b max road cams
wossner 84.6 pistons

balancer shafts removed

whole bottom end lightened & balanced

head polished & ported

pro alloy intercooler

630 siemens injectors

inlet manifold ported

tubular manifold

Hybrid turbo with 360 thrust bearing, stepped oil seal, cut back blades..(turbo guy called it a t38?) journal bearing... Originally a/r48 hot side but i've changed to a 55 (rare)...

sip with k&n group a cone

2.75" turbo elbow and downpipe, stepping down to 2.5"

uprated fuel pump with live feed

uprated clutch

and after Fleas had it, it will have
3 bar map sensor and Apexi AVRC with hope fully 3 settings!!

think that's it... Lol

nick

All being well, I'm sure it'll reach that target in your sig easily.

That is a rare exhaust housing, it's a turbo technics casting. Good choice, I had one of them sitting around not so long ago.

yeah kept my eye out for the exhaust housing for a while.... Although spool was awesome with original its been found by a good few tobe restrictive after 5500 revs.... Hopefully now i'll keep making power all the way to 7200 with the help of the the boost also holding alot better.... Really tailed off with my t3 super 60... Don't think the hole in it helped though!?

i also think it should easily reach that target but i ain't counting my chickens (or horses) just yet!...

nick

so it seems my exhaust cam is out by between 20-25 degrees...
would this explain the way it was running?
well anyway should be sorted by the end of sat so fingers crossed it runs ok... If not, keep an eye out for it in the "i'm breaking my coupe" section!

Nick

Much further out than that!

In your post #1151615 you said the inlet cam was at 7-8 mins past the hour and the exhaust cam 48-49 minutes past the hour, using the clockface notation

Each minute out on the clockface notation is 12 crank degrees. So if the inlet cam should be a 17 minutes past, the inlet cam could be out by 17-8= 9 minutes which equals an error of 108 degrees. If the exhaust cam should be at 43 minutes past the exhaust cam is out by 49-43=6 minutes which is an error of 72 crank degrees.

108 + 72 = 180 degrees, which is what suggests (to me) that the cam wheels being on the wrong camshafts.

p.s. If you do have a T38 turbo then it is good for over 460 BHP. In fact I have seen dyno figures sent to me by Turbo Technics of an Evo producing 583 BHP @ 6948 rpm with one of their T38s (Stage 3 TT S205).

if you think about it though (explained to me yesterday) if the crank is turned over once more from my original observation the the cams would have turned half a turn therefore being not that far out (pointing roughly in the right direction) so now the inlet is at approx 37-38 .... And the exhaust at 17-18 (but should be at 22-23..... So that would be a difference of 5 mins, if each minute equals 6 degrees then approx 30 degrees out...... (each minute equals 6 ddegress NOT 12... I think?) lol

regarding turbo, it not a turbo technics t38, that's a rollerbearing isn't it?
Me and saint have been having a running debate as to what my turbo actually is..... The turbo guy who built it used to run the exact one on his hill climb integrale but swapped to a gt2871r as he was given it to try by an american turbo company.... He did say that my turbo would make more peak power than the gt2871r....? We'll see.

A Turbo Technics T38 has a 73mm diameter compressor wheel and is 60 trim. It can be built with a ball bearing or plain bearing CHRA

60 crank degrees out it is then!
Think i remember my compressor wheel being very close in size to a gt3071 interms of inducer and exducer.... Think mine are 70mm & 51mm where as the gt3071 is 71mm & 52mm Irc??
The gt turbos are newer tech though and alot more efficient than my big old journal bearing cossie turbo!

nick

Closest (Garrett) compressor wheel I know to that is 69.85mm/51.65mm 54 trim T04B. Does it have 8 blades?

Pretty sure it has 7 blades... Not 8? May be wrong, that size seems very close to the dimensions i quoted though!
what sort of power do the T04b make?

nick

It's a pretty odd-ball compressor wheel. I think it might be a T04B T5/T6 trim - and I can't find a compressor map for it. I think you need to Google!

right found some specs for my turbo but still no idea of what it is or capable of? Lol

compressor wheel 71mm (7 blades)
exhaust wheel 53mm (11 blades)
M11 compressor housing with 2.5" inlet
55 a/r exhaust housing!

confused.com

Nick

What size is the inducer on the compressor wheel?

Well im's guessing a bit without pics, but if the exhaust turbine is 53mm exducer it is likely a stage 2 T3 turbine (standard T3 is 1.898" so under 50mm) and stage 3 is nearly 57mm so say stage 2 turbine at a guess

Compressor, well it could

T04B V trim as this is a 2.75 exducer (69.85mm)

Even a T04e 46 trim is a 2.95 exducer (74.93mm)

So I would be guessing a t04b V trim in a T04b cover as they are 2.5" inlet

I'll find a map for you, but if it is a t04b V trim it is certainly an old design turbo - all B series are of course,, but I think we discussed that when it was built

Nick, when is your "engine builder" coming to sort his mess out?

as you know know the problem, cant you get him over asap?

at this rate...Begbie might be finished before you!

NAR...

think i got confused....
not sure of exhaust wheel size, has 11 blades though!...
inducer and exducer are 71 & 53 respectively!

marco: engine SHOULD be running saturday! Wahoo!!

nick

well a T04b V trim has a 55mm inducer, so it isn't likely the V trim wheel in that case

fingers crossed for you mate!

Incoming text message

and i stand corrected..

does that mean begbie is done?!

nick

It sounds like a stock GT28 exhaust turbine and a 71mm 56 trim compressor - so it's like a GT2871 but with journal bearings rather than ball bearings in the middle.

Don't rely on this, but I've read that the exhaust turbine becomes restrictive due to its size/number of blades, so although the compressor is good for 475BHP (I've read) you won't get there because the turbine side will choke before you do.

Possibly why your mate got shot of it?

interesting! Well i was only after between 350-380 so hopefully will get there?! 400 would be a magical figure to reach in my little old 16vt, it'll just depend what boost level we can get to safely.... I was thinking max of 1.6-1.7 bar, but flea will have permission to go as far as he thinks possible!!

Nick

Like this maybe:

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT28/GT2871R_743347_2.htm

But you have a smaller A/R exhaust housing.

Can anyone else identify the .55 A/R turbine housing? I don't know any T25 flanged Garrett turbos that use them. Or do you have a T3 flange?

It's a T3 flange, not T28, and T3 .55, thanks why I don't think GT28 turbine - I have never worked with T28 turbines but aren't they alot smaller and won't fit in a T3 flanged snail

Anyway, without pics it will be very hard to ID

just guess we'll have to see what it produces, it is a little anoying though not knowing what i've actually got..... On the other hand though its a bit more exciting as i could be completely blown away when i get "the call" from flea........ Or not

nick

According to this
http://www.jdmperformance.co.uk/item_detail.php?prodID=53005
a T28 turbine can be fitted (with machining) to a T3 housing.

If so, 400 wheel horse power potential!

I cannot find a T3 turbine smaller than 2.32" (58.928mm) diameter.

400 wheel bhp!.... That would be nice!
that's prob with the 84ar exhaust housing....
Where as i've got a 'piddly' 55ar..
although Nigel has proved its possible to get just as much ( infact more ) power out of his 63ar housing than the guys running 84's with the same cold side!

Nick

GT28 turbine 76 1.85"/46.9mm 2.09"/53.9mm (from GT2871R) NS111 is an 9 blade turbine from memory, Nick says above his is 11

It's smaller than any of the T3/4 family turbines already, so as the link says it has to be a special housing with a smaller turbine scroll, the .55 Nick has is a T3 cosworth one from memory so designed for T3 turbines.

T3 Turbine - - 1.898" 2.319"
T3 Stage 2 Turbine - - 2.122" 2.559"
T3 Stage 3 Turbine - - 2.229" 2.559"
T4 N Trim - - 2.071" 2.922"
T4 O Trim - - 2.296" 2.922"
T4 P Trim - - 2.544" 2.922"
T4 Q Trim - - 2.693" 3.111"

The T3 turbine 2.32" is just standard (rounded) is already bigger than the GT28 turbine so you would need a special housing with a smaller turbine internal, the T28 turbine is too small already that is why I didn't think it was that

There are plently of GT28 turbine sized T3 housings, with ATP it is a option to get the GT28 series with T3 flanges, as per the link. This is cosworth housing though I think

Without pics I can't tell sorry Nick and it all speculation so I will leave it there, the dyno will let you know

Cheers

Nick said above 53mm diameter and 11 blades, so maybe T25/T28 turbine shaft 435922-1?

Inducer = 53mm
Exducer = 41.7mm
Blades = 11

I agree that the .55 A/R housing is most likely from a Cosworth/Garrett T34...

I have a T35 and I'm pretty sure the standard T34/T35 turbine wheel is 58.9mm/2.32 inches

Need a quick answer, trying to find if cam wheels are wrong way round..... There is different part numbers on the wheels..
The one on the inlet wheel at mo is 76918 83
One on exhaust is 76918 85.... HELP

Good old Joe!
Been confirmed the cams wheels ARE the wrong way round! SHOULD be runnin tommorrow...... Fooooooking Cowboys!

Nick

Well I never

Congrats mate! Glad you sorted it!!

Oooh YES...... She's Alive!

Nick

Well done mate!!!!!!!!!

Sounds sooooo smooth, just gotta get some miles on her next week then it'll be in for some of Fleas brain surgery..... Can't wait!

Nick

awesome...glad it sorted in the end

vroom vroom....

http://s132.photobucket.com/albums/q27/nicdav1/?action=view&current=CIMG0060.mp4

little pic to remind you all what she looks like.... its been sooooo long....

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q27/nicdav1/IMG_1433.jpg

nick

Well done mate, bet your chuffed, been following this thread for so long, and finally your there.
Look forward to seeing some results after Flea has had his hands on it!

Cheers buddy.....
If the funds were there it would be with flea within the week, more likely to be 2-3 weeks though as I firstly have to MOT, tax and insure!
With a bit of luck I will be pretty close to you in the DYNO league..

Nick

Brilliant!
Bags of fun!

Long live the 16v

I'll drink to that...!!

nick

well done Nick!

[says me after 13 months without the coupe for a second time, just picked her up and running in new piston rings...]

V

Well done Nick. Glad you got it sorted - and a lucky escape that by having the cam wheels wrong way round hasn't broken anything. Then again I suppose the engine builder should have turned the engine over by hand to make sure the valves & pistons wouldn't clash.

Well done Nick, I look forward to getting some good results

get some pics up of your turbo with as many specs as you can,writing on the turbo etc,i should be able to get it id'd for you

Thanks peeps....!
Can't wait to get her on the road now..... funds are the the only thing holding me back now! 2 weeks i reckon!
GS: I'll have a butchers at turbo and update the thread asap!

nick

as a general rule of thumb from what you have posted so far though,you will have a bang on turbo for in the region of 380-400bhp with good spool up going from the .55 housing (t38 is usually a modified t34) and the bigger front end.the rear housing will hold it back a little on big bhp numbers but will give greater spool,not seen a .55 t38 before,shouldnt surge but will be proper punchy.if you DO start getting surge,id recommend the .63 housing.
but more details from yourself and ill try to get the exact specs as several companies make them,some are better than others.