Should I sell the 16v? What's it worth?

For years, I had wanted a very early 16v N/A to gradually restore and take to car shows. I'm firmly of the opinion that the 16v non-turbo will be the first Coupe to achieve proper classic car status

Last year, following redundancy and getting a much better paid job, I realised my dream and bought an 'M' plate Broom Yellow 16v that turned out to be one of the earliest cars on the forum, and (from information received) about the tenth oldest Coupe in the UK

It was already pretty solid, but needed some light mechanical work, which was all intended to happen, but then the new job turned out VERY wrong and I ended up going back to my old role, but on a lower salary.

All the good intentions were there, but now that I've broken the turbo on the 20vt, I'm faced with the stark reality that I'm not in a financial position to run a tuned 20vt AND a rolling restoration 16v

It's just had around £750 of work done to it...

All belts and tensioners
Full service
thermostat
Wishbones
exhaust
Tax
MOT
Leather interior (to replace the incorrect 20v cloth interior it came with)

...so it's running absolutely spot-on. I did over 200 miles in it yesterday and it ran perfectly and was actually a rather nice change to the sledgehammer power delivery of the 20vt

So - some thoughts please... What do you reckon it's worth?

Its not worth anything Nigel, thats the problem.

You *might* get a grand for it, but then bear in mind that you can buy a 20VT for a grand these days, so unless someone knows what they are looking for, a 16NA isnt going to fetch big money.

Its almost not worth selling, better too keep even if its off the road.

I'll give you a grand for it no trouble at all

Nigel, if you are serious about selling and don't flog it to Phil, try classic car websites. The readers more likely to appreciate the car and the work carried out on it, than those on pistonheads / autotrader, and this should translate into more chance of getting a better price for it.

I assume you've given it the once over with the mop and it's paintwork is nice and bright?

Or you could try it in Auto Italia. But I hope you don't have too sell it Nigel.

It's had two solid days on it - the paintwork is REALLY shiny

It might be a stupid suggestion, but have the club got funds to buy it?

If it is such as prime example of an early coupe, perhaps the club should take it upon themselves to help keep it as a good example and have it on show at meets? It could help raise the profile of the club and the car in the 'classic' sector?

Just a suggestion tough, I don't know if there are funds for this or if it's that practical. I just thought I'd put the idea out there.

I'd buy it... if it didnt have a sun roof

Hmm.

Nigel I went through this when thinking about loosing the Sedicivalvole.

In the end it was just not worth getting shot for what you would get.

Sell the kids first.

Now that, is a brilliant suggestion. The accounts do show a surplus of funds, and keeping an early 16v as a promotional vehicle for the marque would make good sense, IMHO.

Not a bad idea...

Another thought Nigel. What about running the sixteen until you have enough funds for the turbo you want.
I would do that so as not to lose the sixteen.

Thing is though Nigel, stop and think for a minute about what you are saying - selling a complete car, a very nice condition, rare 16NA, JUST to buy one part for another car.

As Joe says, run the 16 until funds allow for a new turbo - you might as well use it after getting all the work done!

Long live the 16NA

I'd love the club to take it over, but I would imagine that this would come with it's own set of problems (there would need to be a registered keeper - insurance would be an issue - who would drive it - etc)

Running ONLY the 16v isn't really an option - I'm doing around 25,000 miles a year and this would not be good for it, especially during winter (also, the 16v isn't really a long-distance car - it's doing 4,000rpm at 80mph and the fuel consumption at this speed is far worse than the 20vt)

Im afraid I would have to suggest otherwise. As Nigel has pointed out its not as straight forward as buying the car. It would have to be stored, serviced, maintained, that all costs money, members money. What would be the point in buying the car and leaving it to rot.

We the club are here to support and provide a means for our members to keep these beauties running. Im afraid we have our own cars to look after and dont fancy adding another to the collection.

Also where does it stop... buy one persons car, then someone with a blown engine will want something and before you know it FCCUK is FCCUK'ed

Mario - the surplus money in the accounts has to be spent somewhere. I see little sign of it being used into r&d into making obsolete parts, despite it being murmered that club funds would be ever since I've been on the scene

It's only the hard work of the specialists and individual owners who have started offering this. Don't see any support from the club financially in this? That'd be an equally good idea!

Better than making baseball caps that sell about 10 imho

What better way than keeping an original and rare early model to take to shows/magazine shoots etc to promote the marque.

Fight fight fight. Or vote

Dan you dont realise how hard it is to get bits made up. Its different for the traders they have contacts and dont mind forking out for tooling as there is a financial gain in it for them.

The club doesnt spend clubs money on stock of baseball caps... we have an account with our suppliers its a pay as you sell service.

Membership numbers have droped by 40% this year. Hosting costs have gone up.

We have plans for spending money but were not here to bankrupt the club and spend money on things that bring no benefit to our members. Im sorry but i think forking out for a car and the asociated overheads that come with that is a complete and utter waste of money. Not to mention the implications of registering it and insuring it. We are a non profit organisation not a business.

Also why do we need to promote the marque when we usually have the biggest turn out of a single model of cars at most of the big events?

As I said above, I'd love to think my car could be preserved by the club, but I'm a realist - it's simply not going to happen.

Even if I GAVE the car to the Club (which isn't going to happen while I'm as broke as this), I reckon the Club wouldn't be able to keep and run it - it's simply too much of a liability, rather than an asset

Just stirring the pot Mario Yep, would have other financial implications for sure. Will our beloved beasts be the best turnout at shows in a few years time though?

So, what to spend the surplus on then?

Nigel, I'd love a 16na, but, 2 are enough for me (more than!). Hope it's kept in the clan and cared for as it deserves

Indeed.

Not a bad idea for the car to have one of the early examples imo.

Sure you would get a reasonable amount for such a rare and feted car; however it seems such a shame to swap her for a small piece of ironmongery!

I'm already tempted myself, because I LOVE sunroofs

I know you do Dan
There wont be a large pot of money if membership numbers dont pick up. We have plans to invest in certain parts but were not going to blow 3k on tooling on something thats going to bring little money back in.

We have a few products we are looking at, but im not prepared to give anymore information than that just yet

As Marion says earlier, the alarming decline in membership at the rate seen lately is the pressing issue to try and address. As numbers of the cars and therefore members decline, such ownership would become too large a burden and could itself be the catalyst for the club folding.....

I'm sure we'd all love the club to be able to buy it and use as a standard bearer for the marque at a host of events but the issues with that are predominantly listed above. We on the board are elected to think and behave in the best long-term interests of the members/club, and unfortunately this would be a knee-jerk, emotional reaction.

Ah c'mon Nigel, you of all people should know Coupes are meant to be driven, you've just spent the best part of a grand on it, why not use it?

Fuel - yeah, fair point, but then I'm sure your monster 20VT isn't exactly a Prius either.

Nigel, it just isn't worth selling the 16. From what I've seen on the bay you'd struggle to get your last garage bill back for it unless there's someone like yourself looking for one.

Is the train an option for work and use the 16 for the difference? Or what about a cheap small engined car. It may not be fun but I halfed my motoring bill by switching to a desiel hatchback. Sure it takes longer but it was also quite relaxing when I knew I wasn't rushing. Potentially save enough for repairs in a couple of months.

Decision made.....

For Sale ad will be appearing in the next few days

I just can't afford the four-figure bill without selling something (and I refuse to add to my debt when I have saleable assets)

Yes, it's a shame and I'll probably regret it straight away, but I'm hoping that a true Coupe enthusiast will take it on and lavish the attention it deserves

sorry to hear this Nigel, needs must and all that. fingers crossed for nothing else going wrong

Very sorry to hear this.

You are however doing the right thing financially. If you cannot afford the bill for the turbo and would be forced to borrow money as apposed to altering your lifestyle to cover the cost. Releasing an asset is the way to go.

That said, this is not something you can just pickup again at any time. THink long and hard.

Whilst it is sad, the fact is family and personal circumstances come before a car - especially when one is already available for use.

Good luck for the future Nigel, hope this sells for a good price to someone who cares

A week of driving the 16v has reminded me just what a superb car it is. So much 'purer' than the 20vt and much more feelsome in almost every aspect.

I've done more than 500 miles in it this week - these are my thoughts...

It's slooooooow! - I've been comprehensively trounced by all manner of mundane rep-mobiles that I wouldn't normally consider to be mediocre, let alone quick. Merc diesels seem to be the hardest to bear - they just romp off into the distance, probably still doing 40mpg...

It's quiet - I can hear myself think, I can hear the engine, I can hear the tyres, I can hear the trim rattling and squeaking and I can hear the fact that...

It's a revvy little engine - 80mph comes up at 4,000rpm (same revs in the 20vt is around 110-115)

It's quite economical - the last tank gave me 370 miles before the light, which worked out at 32mpg. OK, a fair amount of it was motorway cruising, but I was doing 75-80, which is 4,000rpm, so I wasn't trying hard to save fuel

It's softly-damped - it's actually quite floaty at some speeds - slightly over-sprung perhaps, but definitely well on the comfortable side of firm

It understeers - slightly worn outer edges of the front tyres (done when the wishbones were in need of replacement) means it's a little vague when tipping into a corner and the soft suspension means that it breaks away much earlier than the 20vt

It sounds fantastic - I'd forgotten just how nice the Lampredi twin-cam sounds when it's not being drowned out by a silly exhaust or a daft air filter - lovely. It revs so cleanly round to the redline - doesn't sound at all strained

It's VERY yellow - not my fave colour for an everyday car and it was certainly not in keeping with the sombre mood at a funeral that I went to on Wednesday...

And finally - what a throttle response. I've had years of conditioning in 20VTs to hit the accelerator just before you want the revs, but with the 16 it's almost telepathically quick in comparison. It makes low to medium speed driving (ie commuting) SO much more pleasant

Despite all the deserved praise, it would only ever be a second car for me, as I miss the refinement, handling precision and sledgehammer performance of the 20vt. I can't wait to get it back and go hunting for those bloody Merc diesels to show them what a car can really do when it's running on proper fuel...

I saw your 20vt at Motormech this morning. What a bloody gorgeous car it is. IMHO, it's worth sacrificing what you can to get it back to its best, and yes, I mean the 16v. It's a shame to loose it but your 20vt is easily one of the very best I've seen.

I hope so. I happen to drive one. What month and year is yours, by the way?

Now more seriouslly, it's really a pitty that you have to sell it, a car in such a great condition. But if there's no other option, what to do? If those, - what? - £500, £700 of the car will help your life, do it. It seems to be a good buy, but the way things are, there's plenty of fish in the sea, making real money while selling ...

Hope it turns out the best for you.

June 1995

Can you believe it?! Mine too, June 1995! It's turning 17 in a few months.

Again, Nigel, best of luck for your life.

Nigel, you've just enumerated all the reasons why I sold the 20vt and kept my 16na - and intend to spend a bloody fortune on a bare-metal rebuild in the near future... money I really don't expect to see back.

And incidentally, why I bought the Bravo diesel for my commute which is even longer than yours!

CJ, I've had my 16na from new, October 95, and 160k miles. It's been crashed into by others twice in that time, and it's on its second engine...

Triggers broom.

Ross