Viewing a low mileage coop on Wednesday

Hi All,

Am going to look at a 1997 20v turbo on Wednesday that will potentially be my first coop. Have studied the advice on here and also had a few other tips on what to look for which has been of massive benefit to me.

The story goes that there is no rust anywhere and has a genuine 33000 miles with one owner from new and fairly comprehensive service history. It has had loads of work completed including cam belt and other belt change, new brake discs, steering and other work completed. One owner from new and completely original after being in storage for 5 years.

Alarm has been disconnected due to problems and no red key. It seems a bit at the pricey end at just under 10 grand, but there is some wiggle room I think given the above.

Just looking for some opinions and sage advice on the price and whether anyone on here knows the car? don't have the original reg number yet.

http://www.targafloriocars.com/used-car-fiat-coupe-coupe-1550

regards
Ballypete

when was cambelt changed, might be due again?

Expansion tank is a bit crusty and the engine bay could do with a bit a tidying up. Id expect an immaculate engine bay for 10 grand though. be sure to check linkages and bushes and smoking turbo. Test drive is essential. Clutch could also be an issue along with handbrake.

Extract from another thread below on a few things to look out for...............

As a general rule - if you are buying a car, any car, for a grand, there's a reason for it.

One reason is that it's old. If it's a Fiat Coupe, it's at least ten and possibly fifteen years old.

Another reason is related to the age: that it's in need of maintenance which may exceed the value of the car.

At ten to fifteen years old, if you do not have a verified history of maintenance, you cannot assume that there is any amount of health in car. If it's a powerful and easily tuned car such as a Coupe, you can also assume that it's been at the very least thrashed, and at worst, modified without any consideration for doing the job properly.

On any car, you will require the following:

•Tax and MOT
•Insurance

These are expensive for a Coupe (group 19 or 20), and if you are young, have poor accident history, and/or live in a deprecated area, will range from silly to ridiculous. It is common for the insurance to exceed the purchase price... These are not optional.

You can expect - at this price point - to need immediate mechanical attention:

•Tyres
•Exhaust
•Wheel bearings
•Suspension parts (shocks, wishbones, track rod ends, drop links etc.)
•Brake discs and pads
•Bodywork

Depending on history, the following. Probably not immediately, but possibly, and within a couple of years almost certainly (unless the documentation suggests it's been very recently done and by a reputable mechanic).

•Auxiliary belts (inspect yearly, change two-yearly)
•Cambelt (change every five years or 50k miles)
•Clutch (may last anything from 50k to 100k, depending on power and driving style)
•Oil coolant pipework (corrodes over about ten years, fails catastrophically and kills the engine in *seconds*, and can only rarely be changed without the associated cooler also requiring change also)
•Radiator (lasts about ten years)
•Turbo (once the bearings die - for example, if used without a catalyst - it will burn oil and produce copious smoke. It will require replacement or reconditioning.)
•Catalyst (many have removed the catalyst in a quest for more power. This is both illegal, so you'll need to replace it, and breaks the turbo unless attention has been paid to the turbo at the same time.)
•Aircon (lots of exciting places for the aircon system, if fitted, to fail; not only the compressor, clutch electrics, and condensor parts, but the in-car bits: ecu and thermal sensors - and of course its drive belts.)

You also need to be aware of previous repairs. If the cambelt has previously broken, the cylinder head will likely have been written off and replaced. No problem with that, but the big end bearings often seem to be damaged at the same time and should ideally be changed as part of the repair.

Something else to consider is the general condition of the engine. You should see at least two bar oil pressure hot on a 20vt engine at idle. If it doesn't hold that pressure, be cautious (16v engines are happy with lower pressure, down to about 1.5 bar, but a good one will still idle hot a 2.5 bar). If the pressure is not at the top of the gauge above 2000 rpm, avoid... places where oil pressure can be lost are worn bearings (crank main and big end, balance shaft, turbo), possibly the piston spray points on 20vt, and of course the oil pump/relief valve. None of these are cheap to fix. Watch for the pressure with the engine off, too - with the ignition on and the engine off, you should see an oil pressure warning light, and an indicate 0 bar pressure. If you don't, there's something wrong with the wiring and/or the sensors. Note that there are two separate sensors for gauge and warning lamp.

Also, remember that the electrics have been out there for a long time. Make sure everything works. There's a maze of wiring and control boxes for things like the windows, central locking, heating etc, and a fuse box which is vulnerable to corrosion in the event that the windscreen has been replaced and badly fitted, as some aftermarket replacements.

When new, the car was fitted with an undertray. Many have removed this, for better access for oil changes, but this may be a false economy; without it, there is no protection for the belts from road detritus... it being fastened on with tie-wraps is not an issue as the captive nuts have died the death, but it should be there. (The 16 and 20 have different undertrays and are not interchangeable).
when was cambelt changed, might be due again?

Expansion tank is a bit crusty and the engine bay could do with a bit a tidying up. Id expect an immaculate engine bay for 10 grand though. be sure to check linkages and bushes and smoking turbo. Test drive is essential. Clutch could also be an issue along with handbrake.

Extract taken from what to look for by Neil......

This is not to say that you cannot get and enjoy a car for fifteen hundred notes. But you will almost certainly have to spend at least as much again to make it work properly and be reliable. Your best bet is to buy from a reputable specialist, or from a forum member with good history. Only buy an eight hundred quid special if you know exactly what you are doing and what your likely expenses might be.

Thanks Clintos,

I am hoping the long round trip drive is going to be worth it...will look through the docs and receipts thoroughly but told cambelt less that 10K ago and change not due to to old one letting loose!

I was thinking the same about the engine bay

Nice to see competitive prices but 10k is steep.

After digesting all the above sound advice take your check list and tick each item off one by one when you inspect.

Arch seals in boot, front and rear eiffel towers

Aircon working (if fitted)? - not just a "breeze" but icy....

Alarm problem

Oil pressure when hot?

Running temp when hot (thermostat failing?)



The ad states it has 4 cylinders so you can't believe everything

Some of this already pointed out by Clintos.


Good luck with the bartering, if you can get it down to a better price it looks really tidy

Thanks Edinburgh, let's hope it is an error re the number of cylinders

Look hard over the car at that money. If I read the ad correctly then brakes, cam belt, etc. were done mid last year. The engine bay looks a little cruddy for a car that has just had a cam belt done.

One problem with cars that have been sat for a few years - anything rubber will have deteriorated most probably.

Tyres must have been changed (or was the car left on stands for all that time). How was it kept - in temp controlled storage?

Drive shaft gaiters, coolant pipes, gaiters for drop links, ball joints, etc. have all these been replaced?

Cars don't like being sat for years. I hope this car has been given a good shake down for many weeks, if not months before sale.

Then all the issues will be ironed out. I have known of friends getting low mileage cars that were not used regularly and lots of things had to be replaced, due to lack of use.

Hope it's a good 'un and good luck.

edit : what I can see from photos :

- front springs rusty.
- Look like new tyres - but the date code is 2413 (week 24 2013)?!
- Look closely at front wheel arch - sign of rusting at sill / wing join. Front wheel closeup picture.
- Interior looks fab.
- As said engine bay a little meh. Nice cleaning in some places (should have done it properly for the money). Some signs of rusting on slam panel and at panel joins.
- Crud in expansion tank (blue gunge at top). Should have been flushed properly. As mentioned already.
- I would really want to see the underside without the undertray. On a car ramp so you can get under it properly.

Even if you spend money on that after, you won't regret it. But he is wanting top dollar so use everything to bring the price down. For that cost, if not mint in every way .... bargain.

my engine bay's tidier than that after 161,000 miles. Looking at that place, they seem to favour the duster than the de-greaser ....offer them 7 !

Just as a possible comparison?

This one has done more miles.....but looks nice in the photos.

The engine bay seems to be a little smarter than the Chicester-based one?

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/u...bo-1999/6668977

It is still for sale on their website.....

Hi Zam,

Thanks for the thought. I made an enquiry about this one a good week ago and was informed it had been sold-perhaps not if it is still on the market...have messaged again...

Thanks 1st_things_1st,

Will be taking a full checklist of things to look for with me including all of the extra good advice given here-this forum rocks

Advertised as a 5-seater

Umm....is that better or worse than a 4 cylinder 20v, as in the OP's linked ad.?

When you are asking £7 - £10k for a car, at least make an effort to get the main details correct!

It would need to be properly mint for 10k! (and its not)
Looks to be a very very nice car but not 10k worth imo.

That price is staggering for any 20VT, let alone a early 97 non LE/Plus with no AC even. Tops would be £5k at a stretch. Do you have the reg number? I would pass that through the gov website to check on MOT history before making the trip.

Why? If a nice plus can fetch 10k why would 1 cog less halve the price? I just don't get the perceived delta between very similar models. If the car is nice why shouldn't the asking price be be close to the limited/run out models?

lets just say there are better coupes out there for sale (inc Plus & LE's) in better condition (yes, higher mileage I know)for less money...........I rest my case but I wouldn't even waste my time looking at this one. Thought I saw LE0173 for sale on here for less (and pretty much sorted too) :

A sweeping statement as you haven't viewed the car.

I don't get this rubbishing of prices (especially as you've spent a bit on yours). The car looks quite honest. Ask the right questions as some have pointed out above and you might have a great car to enjoy. And that's the key. These aren't vehicles for investment, but toys for enthusiasts to enjoy.

Not a sweeping statement but my opinion........And it wants to be more than quite honest for top dollar!

What I paid for my coupe is less than the asking price of this one. What I spent on it it irrelevant tbh as I bought the car as an enthusiast, not an investor

totally agree with your comment from another post........thought that was the angle I was coming from?

I'll agree to differ with you szkom, I think more than 6k is too much for any non restored or mint coupe. Like it or not special edition models always fetch a premium for any car. As for why later cars fetch more, Recaros, 6 speed, and body tarty bits do fetch a premium for some unknown reason Me I prefer a the older style 20VT.

The car in the advert looks a long way from mint anyway. Been there a few times with coupes recently, we went on a goose chase to Nottingham to see a mint £5k 20VIS. Looked great in the pics but 20 second once over and i could tell it was rotten to the core. Told owner to take it to specialist, not sure what happened but it is now doing the rounds of auctions at less than £1k. I would like to see the previous MOTs on this and why it has not been used. Lack of red key is an issue when you sell, regardless of it's importance. I'd want to know a lot more before a potentially wasted journey. That is good advice regardless of price.

Your first response didn't read that way. You simply rubbished the car. The cars panel work looks spot on as an example. There aren't many cars that look as sharp on the panel gaps these days as most have had resprays. 10K for a sharp looking performance car, if it's sorted, isn't bad. You could get very close to that with a respray, motor rebuild, welding, etc. and you still wouldn't have the low mileage.

The quote out of context you've referenced was from a thread about a £1500 LE for sale. The point being that the car was cheap and represented a disposable way of getting into a coupe, and on the face of it could've made a nice car for someone with time and money.

Last I'll say I've we've differing view points on this car.

My apologies to the OP, I should've started a separate thread on the values of each model. Mods please feel free to delete if I've gone too far off-piste.

Lol, Thank you , but you know what I mean - shouldn't be as big a gap as there is.

Maybe we'll be start seeing the main run models appreciate...

Think we might just be seeing this starting to happen......

I severely doubt that a garage which is selling cars which are valued at touching 200k is going to be selling anything less than as best condition as possible. This is someone's private business where his reputation counts. You don't spend 200k on a used car at a dealer where you don't know anyone who has purchased their before (Unless it's a main dealership) Read the testimonials.

How clean an engine bay appears in a photo is not how you value a car. My every day car is a 2 year old 335d engine bay is disgusting doesn't mean it's not looked after. My fiat engine bay isn't clean either. Doesn't mean it's a dustbin.

I'm sure judging by the photos it's been garaged all it's life by the single owner. Used regularly, otherwise it's condition would be poor and if left outside for 20years paintwork would be beyond saving and in this country covered in rust.

It's a rare car how many of these cars are out there with that low miles and only 1 owner.

From reading their site all cars are fully detailed prior to delivery. I would guess that is fully machine polished, Engine bay etc I would expect just because it's a Fiat that the service you will get will be the same as the Ferraris he is selling. Anything which needs doing will be done no questions asked. Unlike the usual cowboy dealers at the roadside

Hopefully, the OP will post soon and give the all the gory details

Looks honest to me. Nice to see an un-modded engine bay too. Some rust on slam panel is to be expected at this age, which could mean it hasn't been restored at all. If that's the original paint, then it must have been in a garage all this time, which should be good news. Sitting about could also explain the cruddy coolant bottle... Isn't the original Paraflu coolant blue?

However, the rust on the front wheel arch bothers me. Doesn't match the condition of the rest of the car. I'd be checking the rear inner arches and inside the boot. Mind you, the Eifel towers should be a good indicator. If they are mint, then you could be laughing. As above, needs all the usual engine checks too.....

Having said that, it is worth a punt if you're after a keeper............ but I'd be haggling down on condition personally. Gut feeling is it's not a £10k car. I'd want restored condition for that.

Just to put a bit of perspective on this, Duffy's old coop (Moon Grey Plus) went for 8k and you won't see a cleaner restoration - the thread'll be around somewhere to prove it.

I am with Clintos on this one, its a 20 year old car with only one Owner, who were they?

If you like this car and you are taking a long tour down south to see it, I would extend my tour and take a look at this one on eBay.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fiat-Coupe-20v-turbo-/322408381930?clk_rvr_id=1166603335230&rmvSB=true

Its looks the same, its £6,000 less, done 60,000 miles more( Ok the radio does not work) and its in Ross on Wye. 33 mins from Countrycrusing (Joe Knight's Magic Shop for Fiat Coupes Repairs). At least you have the reg number for this one and can see the MOT history on the Government website.

If I was seriously buying the one down South, I would want an expert report on it at this price and even though I am not an expert, I would want to look all over the car even underneath.

There is no reason to buy a car with low mileage for lots of money if you are going to use it. Just buy the one above or similar if you are want to use and enjoy. If you want what must be one of the lowest mile examples out there to keep generally off the road as an investment ...... then look at the 10K one. This would be my thinking....

Interesting views all round I see. This is one of the reasons I joined up before buying my first one as all advice helps. Didn't make it down south on Weds due to man-flu but plan to try again this coming week. Will update with some pics (and possible that I am the second owner) When I do. Also intend to look at an LE a bit closer to home before then

Any car is worth what you are willing to pay, so is it over-priced......you decide. Here is one priced at 11K........

Fiat Coupe 2.0 20V Turbo Limited Edition 2dr
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/a...il_a_friend_car

Hmm, Pondman's old LE which has been up in this neck of the woods (almost) for a bit. Think it's been for sale a while, perhaps due to asking price?

Update- took to 3 1/2 hr journey to see this one on Friday ( a journey to forget due to congestion/roadworks!) but didn't end up buying it.

I am a newbie so this is my opinion and I will try and be objective:

1)its a beautiful car- inside was like new (no tacky console) and outside in very good condition

2) a few marks on the front bumper- looked like something going on underneath paint but not sure

3) some corrosion on the rear wheel arches and front drivers side but didnt look excessive to my untrained eye. everywhere else the forum advice gives checked and nothing seen

4) engine sounded really nice- wasn't making strange noises- oil pressure didn't drop below 3bar at any point and no blue smoke.

5) all electrics worked without issue

6) history appears genuine

I didn't purchase for the following reasons

I wasn't able to take it for a test drive unless I committed to buy the car. Like I say I am new so don't know if this is usual practice with a classic, but to be honest it wasn't the most relaxed viewing of a car i've ever done- got the feeling I shouldn't be looking too hard around and under the covers etc.

No red key-seller said it wasn't important these days

There was no negotiation on price whatsoever

The pictures on the advert had been updated on the website and some things I had picked up as potential issues on the original pictures were no longer there but no touching up had been done I was told.

I would never rubbish someone elses property and this is an excellent example with great condition and low miles- it was a beautiful car but I feel that is wasn't worth 10k to me, rare example or not.

That's not to say that it won't be to someone else.

So the search continues...

Having been in the motor trade for 19 years and working for Fiat for 17 of them the Red key issue people have different opinions on but from a dealer the red key is still very important. As for not been able to drive the car that's one of the most ridiculous things I ve ever heard, oh here you go all my heard earned money don't worry I don't want to drive it!!! Never buy a used car without a test drive, sound like something is wrong when they won't let you drive, esp a 20 year old fiat (again I ve enough experience). You should always poke and prod a used car, you could be the potential owner so you want to know the ins and outs simple as ask away, if there reluctant again it sound like something to hide

Agree with Daley Pete. I'd never buy a car I couldn't drive beforehand

When I was looking for a Coupe in 2013/14 he had that in stock then - asking c£5.5k IIRC. It disappeared off and has obviously resurfaced. Maybe it's an SOR as that is a long time to sit on a car.

Trying to sound positive on this it sounds like a lucky escape.

As above the sealing argument is the inexplicable refusal of a test drive, on top of the vague history.

I've been keeping an eye on proceedings regarding this from the background. Obviously I had no idea of what would happen, but why am I not surprised by this. Hope you find a Coop that you'll like Pete.

Not allowed to take it for a test drive? Never heard of that before from a reputable dealer. What's he trying to hide?

And for £10K I would want it to be mintier than polo flavoured toothpaste, not shabby under bonnet and a worn drivers seat. That handbrake looks like it needs adjusting too......

I'm certainly not privvy about what's what about the car, but like others I've seen this vehicle for sale for some time now & reading between the lines it hasn't sold for a very good reason & by all accounts, it looks like it will stay that way.

I was rather taken aback by the general attitude, and the no test drive without commit to buy and a 2 grand deposit topped it off. The reviews on line of the dealership were the total opposite to my experience.

Going for a slight change of tack now and got a couple more to look at next week, higher mileage but allegedly sound and unmodded. Only trouble is they're down on the south coast again!

Get the feeling it will all be worth it once I find the one...

These Marco Polo type expeditions are not uncommon....

Well done for keeping your nerve. Until I grew myself a pair, I used to be all "ooh look at that, isn't it shiny" and my drooling kept me away from a car's bad points. Lesson learnt.

I bought a Peugeot many moons ago. Looked all round the car, bottom of doors, general finish. As I did the seller was eyeballing me and said "what you looking for". Should have been a massive gong going off. Only when I had a bump (after I purchased it), did the filler at the bottom of the door fall off. Lol.

You live and learn. Anyone being that pushy and wary would be an instant red light for me as well. Dealers should leave you to it. "Come back to me when you've had a look around", etc. Nice long test drive and "tyre kickers" are part of their business. If he does not like it, get another job.

It took me 7 hours on public transport to get from North to South to collect mine, well worth the trip though and a lovely drive home! :-)

Yes I've been to the other end of the country to buy the right Alfa once. Worth it if its the right car...

It's good to hear you got the one you wanted otherwise its a long journey back to reflect on things if empty handed...

Potentially up in Edinburgh's neck of the woods tomorrow to look at one and hope I am as lucky - low mileage but no cambelt history that I can see so if it is the one it might be an interesting drive back...

I invested a day and £70 return train ticket to view my dream Coupe (20v na, scotty with tan interior) to view a 'totally rust free car'.
The cambelt had no record of being changed so I peeled the cover back and it looked crack free and the coolant was clean.
It was rust free, until I opened the passenger door to reveal extensive welding, then rust spreading half way up the rear quarter. He wouldn't come down in price to cover the welding, and so I was was a long train journey back from Leeds

I once did a train to Gatwick, then a flight to Belfast followed by an overnight ferry journey with the car to Liverpool and a drive to home in Hampshire to buy one of my cars.

5:30am on a Tuesday to 1pm Wednesday for the round trip, and then I had to pick up my original car from the station car park later.

I still have the car, it's now 37 years old. A combined 68 years of Fiats on the drive right now.

I tend to tempt Mrs Magoo with a chance of a quick shopping trip to the uk,after buying her a one way plane flight,then just let it slip that she has to pick a coupe up while she is in the uk.

I am hoping for similar luck. Tomorrow for me is 04.45am car to Leicester then train to Luton, Plane to Glasgow, kick my heels for a few hours until seller finishes work, then hopefully 5 1/2 hour drive back to Leics by 10pm rather than miserable train journey with three changes

Snap! Well almost: 32 + <1 = 32+years in the garage at home plus 20 + 16 = 36ish at garages around the corner = 68 years give or take a year or so, but spread across 4 cars...

Good luck Ballypete! Hope storm Doris doesn't blow you off course. Hope also that the car is as described and you get to drive it home

Good luck Ballypete!

After a 23 hr round trip which involved the bumpiest plane landing I have ever had and scenes of M6 motorway carnage on the drive back I am now the proud owner of a 1998 Porto Blue 20v Coupe!

Super job! Great buy! Congrats ...... Now the fun starts

Thanks!- think I might have to call her Doris under the circumstances

Nice one - although that's a bit of a mouthful, just shorten it to "Doris"

Glad you got something sorted Pete - Enjoy!

Ummmm.....maybe Ballypete missed a real bargain with that Sprint 20vt in Chichester?

He could have bought it at a knock-down price of £9,999 - instead of the price it is now advertised for on Autotrader.....



£12,990

How bizarre

Wakefield to Aberdeen to buy a Clio Williams once, huge rot box but my what fun!!! Now they do fetch a fortune and are built with blutac!

The seats and door card leathers are filthy and worn out. How is it possible to wear the seats out in 25k miles?

That's impossible on a 25K car.... is the answer

You saying they were swapped out Phil?

Yes or the mileage is incorrect. If the wear is that bad. It smells fishy to me. Where the hell does that saying come from anyway????? Smells fishy = not right? Some things that smelly fishy are actually great

Phil bring back one of those bottles of whatever you're having, we'll all have a sip at the 10th anniversary

It's only Vodka here Ed, ex Soviet state .... means Vodka and lots of

Reading through this and other threads on buying a Coupe, checking the car its maintenance, owner and care is paramount. What has occurred to me that even with all the checks it is often difficult to assess some of the rust issues without the removal of the wheel arch liners, some cars appear mint on the outside but beneath in hidden areas tin worm is lurking, some owners have left this and this has meant enthusiast owner's who wish to keep their Coupe's face bills of £000's. I would be suspicious of any Coupe listed as 'rust fee' unless proof of work/maintenance has been undertaken given their foibles and gaining years. Ownership demographics have changed in the time I have had mine, from new-ish car, to big powah modders, to shed money turn up the boost crowd and now to an appreciating classic standard car that will cost ££'s to keep in good condition.