Maggie Thatchier dead !!

Maggie Thatcher Dead !

Party tonight!
Hope the fireworks I've had for the last 4 years still work.
I can't get that wizard of Oz tune out of my head..... " Hey ho the witch is dead"


Too soon?

Her passing will certainly polarise opinion. Very sad

Yes....

Love her or loathe her, nobody can deny that she was a political giant and deserves her place in history

How many other PMs have had a film made about them? - not many, I suspect

They say one should never speak ill of the dead, so I had better keep quiet as I have absolutely nothing possitive to say regarding this person

Richard Nixon, Tony Blair & JFK to name a few....

As a young man I always assumed I'd take the advice of Elvis Costello and Tramp the Dirt Down when Mrs Thatcher died. I hated her with am unwavering loathing for decades. However, now that she finally has gone, I find no satisfaction in it for 2 reasons:
1) Whoever she may have been, at the end she was a frail husk no different from any other human and irrelevant in terms of politics or other criteria.
2) The vindictive, divisive and fundamentally unjust policies she crusaded for live on in the shape of May, Osborne and countless others.

What's to celebrate?

I'll tell you who else deserves a place in history and has a load of films about them - Hitler.


Not, of course, that I'm trying to imply that Hitler was anywhere near as bad as Maggie

Were they all PM?

I saw one about the life of John Major? Well the actor had a John Major mask on and not a lot else...

Point Break?

I think you'll find JFK and Richard Nixon were American? And Presidents. So 1 out of 3...

OK my bad

Like Hitler

I'm completely indifferent to her death.

I was too young to experience her leadership first hand and everything I've ever read or heard seems to be so biased one way or another that I find it impossible to formulate an opinion on the woman.

However, if she was so unpopular, why did we vote her into power on three separate occasions?

Probably the most uneducated post I've read today!

I think you'll find it's "Ding Dong the witch is dead"

My views are best kept to myself but.....

There was a film about Churchill and there was definitely one about Disraeli.

Michael Sheen played Blair twice (and is rumoured to be up for a third), but only one of these (The Deal) was actually about Blair (the other being The Queen)

Beeb also did a 60-minute drama about David Lloyd George.

Aside from Blair, I'm pretty sure that Lady Thatcher would have been content to be mentioned in the same breath as other film PMs

At the end of the day, its the nature of politics that a large portion of the population would not like her. However, to compare her to Hitler is distasteful and disrespectful.

With a spirit of open mindedness can anyone enlighten me to a good thing that She did. something that was good for the nation and that has had a lasting legacy for us all to this day?


My political hero gave us, The NHS (Free Healthcare for all), Workers rights (Rights to paid Holidays, sick pay, rest breaks at work & the introduction of pensions for workers) The welfare state, Rights for women & children, The right to free education for ALL children, free college education and university scholarships. Oh yes and he provided FREE MILK FOR ALL SCHOOL CHILDREN.

Much of this fellows leadership legacy is lasting to this day. This despite efforts to destroy them by the style over substance mp's whome inhabit Parliament today. Maggie was one of the first of those and Blaire was much the same.

Excellent. Cheers.
Its been a while since I've seen the film. The joke I had earlier makes sense now!

I'm sure she wouldn't have minded being mentioned in the same breath as Blair. What greater tribute can there be than to see your enemies become like you?



Indeed, and I apologise to Mrs Hitler and all the little Hitlers.

Already made the third = The special relationship 2010

The beeb did a whole series about Lloyd George. I remember the theme music being superb.

I was not a fan of Mrs T, but it does seem odd to 'celebrate' her death when that death won't change anything.

Is there anyone who feels that something positive comes out of her death. Is it felt to achieve some 'justice' (in the sense that the death of Pol Pot might be considered to) perhaps for those who died when the Belgrano sank? Is it just that it makes me happy she's dead because I didn't like her?

I'm in the indifferent camp. For me, it does not change any aspect of what she did.

She helped develop soft scope ice cream!!!

She helped to develop the modern worker,

ie your on your own chap and the union won't be able to do anything about it.

Unless I am going completely senile everything in the above list COSTS MONEY, which contrary to the belief of every Labour government that ever was elected had to come from somewhere. I am no Maggie-lover, but until she went a bit loony towards the end of her third term she was the most effective PM we have had in my lifetime. I am old enough to remember the ghastly days of Wilson and Callaghan who bankrupted the country, Blair who was just a useless grinning PR machine whilst the country was being bankrupted in the background without his knowledge, and last but not least Gordon Brown - the worst chancellor of the exchequer in my living memory, and the worst PM in my living memory.

When Blair won in 1997 the British economy was in the best state it had been in for 30 years (thanks to Kenneth Clarke), and unfortunately the country has been in a steady tailspin since then. I confess that I vote Tory, but that is not because I am a hang-em and flog-em righty - I am just afraid of the altenative. God help us all if Ed Balls ever gets the keys to the safe

Wasn't there already a Thatcher Blair File. "Blaire Witch Project" wasn't it.

Love her or hate her at least she strayed from the middle ground, she stayed PM partly due to the Falklands but mainly due to Labour scoring a spectacular number of own goals in that era and the Liberals being discredited due to the Jeremy Thorpe scandal. Like any major catastrophy it takes a number of faults all alighning to create the disaster that was Thatcherism.

I must agree with Tim, Gordon Brown did as much damage as Maggie. Look at the mess pensions are in and the huge debt he left us in that has given the current goverment permsission to tax the poorest into submission.

Labour under Blair and Brown was a horlicks in the last few years.

Thatcher state funeral to be privatised

In keeping with the great lady's legacy, Margaret Thatcher's state funeral should be funded and managed by the private sector to offer the best value and choice for end users and other stakeholders.

The undersigned believe that the legacy of the former PM deserves nothing less and that offering this unique opportunity is an ideal way to cut government expense and further prove the merits of liberalised economics Baroness Thatcher spearheaded.

She pioneered and firmly believed that the state should play a minimal part in people lives, please give her what she would have wanted.

I actually met her once in 1985 when I worked in the City, totally disliked her from that point on. (I was 20 and had yet to form a real political opinion,) I felt so strongly about her after this that I resigned from the Young Conservatives. While I refuse to take joy in the death of any human being, I don't feel sorry that she has shuffled her mortal coil.

She simply was fortunate enough to be PM as the revenue from North Sea oil started flowing and then sold off the "family silver" to her mates. We wasted billions in dole payments, the inner cities were wracked by riots, she led us from a manufacturing economy to a service one, thus pre-empting the current banking finance (she loosened financial constraints).
When I first lived in Dubai in 1976-77 I was shocked to see real beggars on the streets, little did I know I would see them on the streets in the UK within 10 years.

Well, it made Cameron say something that I think he was sincere about.

Pensions are in a "mess" because we are living longer. Brown did raid the pensions pot with an additional tax though.

Interesting that you feel that Brown made a "Horlicks" as a Nobel prize winning economist said different?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/econo...rdon-Brown.html

When I first started work in the mid-seventies there was a pay freeze and inflation was running at 28%. In order to keep the workers alive our company paid us a "productivity bonus" every three months which was equivalent to two weeks extra money. The top earners were paying 83% income tax, and the REALLY top earners paid 98%. This meant that all the high earning folk just buggered off and left the rest of us to stew (Rod Stewart, the Rolling Stones, Elton John all left the country to avoid this insane punishment). A more realistic top rate would have meant that these people stayed and payed, and we would all have benefitted.

Scargill and Red Robbo were running the country; British Leyland and British Coal went pear-shaped because of the power of the trade unions at that time making their operations a money sink. The joys of the Wilson/Callaghan era.... the disasters of the Blair/Brown era are still coming to light. If we ever have to endure a Milliband/Balls era I will move to Cyprus/Greece/Portugal..... . At least the weather will be better

She stole my milk!

Then she fed me G&T at number 10 after the Falklands war fifteen years later, but it didn't make up for it.





Well, two of them are; Blair is still alive, though...

With all the pathetic fawning going on in the media right now, I think it is very important that some of the street parties that are being planned this evening, as well as the fireworks displays and bbq's should be shown to give some balance.

The woman destroyed whole communities, ruined people’s lives. People died as a result of her actions.
I just wish I believed in a hell so I could feel better knowing the evil woman would burn .

Apparently she suffered from Dementia and was unable to remember many of her great achievements, funny, I couldn’t remember any either.

As against the 70s worker. "We're doing all and there's all you can do about it".

I can understand the antipathy of those from mining communities... Kent had a fair-sized coal-mining industry south of Canterbury near Wingham, and I know a lot of people who were badly effected by the closures.

The problem was that the mines were losing money hand-over-fist, and the ridiculous demands by the leaders of the NUM just made matters worse. Blair and Brown just repeated the same errors of the past - blowing all the money the country had, and just continuing when the money ran out. If ANYONE on this forum ran their household budgets the same way that ANY Labour government in my lifetime ran the country they would now be in jail or on the run! The problem is that almost anywhere else in the developing economies people can make and sell stuff cheaper than we can.... and we need to cut our cloth accordingly. This from a man with three Coupes

And already where I work, one of our customers have placed a large re-order of the "Iron Lady" BluRay & DVDs into store.....

The closest Mine to my home, closed LAST year. She closed it down, the workers bought it themselves. They ran it VERY succesfully for all those years. I would be careful of using the data from the conservatives at the time. They were after all, trying to justify their actions.. because that , well would be silly, wouldnt it?

You have to remember that most of the nationalised industries were actually very profitable, thats why they were privatised.

Ask what happened to all the North Sea Oil revenues, the money from the sale of Council houses, the money from the privatisation's. It all disappeared. How about the sale of the British Rail's rolling stock, (worth billions, sold for millions, there's a good NAO report into that).

The debacle of the Poll tax.

The more I think about it the less I like her and what she stood for. I have a rather nice bottle of Champagne sitting chilling in the fridge.

And full credit to them for that. But in the same way you can't look backwards and say that because they did, the government should have done. I dare say that it took a community pulling together and huge sacrifices along the way, with the closure and devastating impact on the community being a huge social incentive and the financial incentive of rewards more directly reflecting what you put in. These are not necessarily things that would have made it financially successful if the goverment had carried it on.

That does not mean it is right that the impact of a decision on a community must be subservient to mammon.

She punished those who deserved it and rewarded those who worked for it. If only we had a Tory leader with half the balls of Lady T we might have had a chance of fixing the mess we're in. However, we don't and all of you throwing parties to celebrate her death will beg for another Thatcher when parties on all sides keep kicking the can down the road and it really goes tits up here.

Good thread this one....

Agreed, we need a prime minister with balls, not a euro yes man.

Close the borders for a start, only let in those with skills heading into a job, then tell them there will be NO benefits till they have paid into the system for 5 years.

Then we can give the money saved on asylum seekers benefits to our elderly...

breath Richard breath....

Indeed it does.... so do I pay any less TAX today then.

NO, indeed due to governments fiddling I find myself getting ever deeper into the 40% TAX bracket. I consider myself to be far from traditional middle class, but I, along with ever more of us, find myself in there!

Today I pax taxes to subsidise big busiess and shareholder returns. Many businesses find ways to pay less Tax, but they often pay wages that means my tax burden is used to support their workers with benefits. IDEA Have a minimum wage set to a level that means people don't need to claim benefits. I wonder how much that would SAVE?

And don't lump me in with Blair and Brown. This pair of Fwits were just Maggie pawns. They were all style over substance and we fell for it. There was hardly a socialist hair on their heads.

When Maggie came to power if something said BRITISH it was BRITISH. Today almost everything is now owned and managed for proffit for the benefit of off shore business. Our TAX pounds built much of this nations infrastructure but Maggie sold it all off. Yes some of us bought shares and made money from the "good times" But what legacy have we left our children?

Adam,

Would you like shares in this rapidly appreciating Porsche? I took it off your drive privatised it this very afternoon...

One day I will find someone who can explain:

a) why trying to sell something back to me that I already own isn't theft?

b) why it is expected that a service can be provided by an external party at a lower cost while providing the same service unless someone is getting shafted?

c) why is the lie that market forces act to create the lowest possible price perpetuated when it's obvious that the opposite applies: market forces find the absolute highest price the consumer will bear?

Nothing, as a lot more businesses would go bust. Greece, Cyprus, Spain, Portugal.... all of these countries are now facing deprivation of Middle-Age proportions because THEY SPEND MORE THAN THEY EARN. This cannot go on for ever; even the mighty USA will find this out eventually.

This BRITISH thing was great when we were dealing with fuzzy-wuzzys and paddy-field farmers, but unfortunately other countries can now manufacture the goods we need for far less than us, as their costs are far lower than our bloated state and expectations. God help us when the current generations of engineers/designers/IT geeks start their own businesses in Asia and Latin America. Like it or not, the UK has not the natural resources to enjoy a Labour life-style.

We're DOOMED, DOOMED.....

Oh dear, rant over, as I'm going to cook some food prior to watching those Manc paupers kicking a bladder around.

What he said; I for one like conviction politics. She was bloody marvelous

Too late it's already quite common in the construction consultancy to farm out portions of work to offices based overseas. The issue is finding the cheap placeswith the skills needed.

Not sure how that would work, if a employer suddenly has to pay x amount more to his employees, he's going to have to increase the prices of his goods/services to cover his additional labour cost's.

So everyone's happy earning a decent wage but they (and everyone that wouldn't benefit from a increase in the national minimum wage) would be spending more money on inflated prices of goods/services?

Or they will, where possible, shift work elsewhere so no jobs at all.

I have just watched the Ulster TV news ! You can guess how that went on thier opinion of MT.
She really was responsible for alot of un happyness across the UK.

Not sure I put much store into what Gerry Adams had to say. Tosser. (Gerry that is).

Maggie's funeral would be the perfect day for an extra holiday. A day of mourning or celebration depending on your own feelings. Everybody wins.

I totally agree with you RK.
But i was thinking more about the general Ulster people.

I think in any way comparing Maggie Thatcher to Hitler is insulting and disrespectful, no matter what you thought of her.

Anyone even making such a comparison, even in jest should be ashamed of themselves.

Have some frikken respect, especially on Holocaust Memorial Day. Bloody ignorant fools. Your fathers or grandfathers who fought (and also died fighting) against Hitler, rescued the victims in the Concentration Camps and liberated Europe would be rolling in their graves.

Is it Holocaust Memorial Day today then?

Adolf Hitler was also a great politician as was Mussolini and Mrs T.

That's were the comparison ends OK

I can live with that Mikndo69. Anyone would have to agree with that comment. You could also add Churchill, Reagan, Kennedy etc. that to the list.

On both sides of the aisle, but great politicians whether you hate them or love them.

No its not the UKs memorial day thats on the 27th Jan.

I think hes is refering to some reports today and israels memorial day.

Wasn't Holocaust Memorial Day on 27th January?

I always thought our fathers and grandfathers fought in wars so we could speak freely; people are entitled to express their views, which might include a not-entirely-serious comparison between Thatcher and Hitler. Or Stalin and Barry Chuckle. You are, of course, free to disagree. Won't mean our kids get free frikken milk in schools any more though.

Maggie was years ahead of the current health Nazis. She helped reduce the exposure of our vulnerable young to the risk of future cholesterol issues caused by drinking full fat milk.

There you go again, RK, comparing Nazis with HS people who are only obeying orders.

I am sure she would hate the thought of the state spending any money on her funeral, so I really hope it's coming out of her estate.

I can't get all this "don't speak ill of the dead" bullshit, if someone was an awful human being, why shouldn't you voice your opinion just because they are dead??

And as our fathers or grandfathers fought to liberate the camps, did you know what was happening to British soldiers in Palestine? Read this

Or that the Stern Gang (Jewish Freedom Fighters/Terrorists) offered to fight for the Nazis against the Allies? Read this

Or the murder of two British Sergeants? Read this

History makes for interesting reading, it's rarely black and white. Ironically the first use of a truck bomb was by Jewish Terrorists (or should that be freedom fighters?) against a British Police station

And no, I am not anti-Zionist or Right Wing, but I do read a lot of history. I also find it quite ironic when an Israeli denounces an attack as terrorism

List of terror attacks in Palestine

I used to hate that silver top school milk, especially when (1) warm and (2) previously enjoyed by blue tits.

I think she should be Sainted and interred at the recently closed Maltby colliery, turning it into a shrine. I'm sure the local community would approve.

Well he must be right!

Being a siplementary benefits claim officer during Maggies reign I saw first hand the destruction she caused. Changed my polotics completely. Maybe the unions had enjoyed too much power, but once that had been reduced they did not need destroying along with the industry they covered.

I will not rejoice at her or anyones death, but I will not shed a tear either.

Charlie - it's a fairly recent phenomenon. People have observed that the easiest way to get a Nobel Peace Prize is to kill lots of people, and then stop.

c.f. Yasser Arafat, Shimon Peres, Yitzhak Rabin, Nelson Mandela... I'm waiting for Gerry Adams and Osama bin Laden.

Not sure about the sainted bit, but I agree her corpse should be put down a mine shaft.
People who are then so inclined, could pay a small fee (say £10.00) to take a crap down the very deep hole. I think it would work wonders, and the national dept could be paid off by next thursday.

Don't worry Gareth. I still live in hope that those people she helped to live more honourably instead of holding the country to ransom will realise how much she helped them. One day everyone will thank her legacy of giving working people the right to better themselves instead of pulling the rest of the country down to their dirty level.

Yes, best of luck with that. I really wouldnt hold my breath were I you.
Xx

She won. You lost. It worked for the country brilliantly until Bliar and Brown got their filthy mitts on it. You'd think after 30 years people would decide that blaming her isn't working for them. Maybe doing something about it and making their life better would lead to a nicer, less spiteful life.

This thread is ace! It's brought a bit of passion (and especially humour) to our forum. FWIW I don't have anything to say about her death whatsoever.

It worked for the country brilliantly?
Ah, well if you're not going to be reasonable and start talking utter nonsense...
She sold off everything we had. She sold it off to her peers. It was never hers to sell. Privitisation can never be cheaper or more efficient. As soon as you have shareholders to pay you're already dealing with higher costs. She created a country that went from an industrial giant to a yuppy crazed financial center. Industry is still reeling from her bungling decisions.
She should be glad she wasnt made to run through the streets naked while being whipped by the widows of the miners whis lives she destroyed.

She got off very lightly. I hope the bitch burns in hell.

Yeah, the National Coal Board, British Rail, British Steel and British Leyland were all providing top class goods at knock down prices due to not servicing shareholders weren't they? Or perhaps they were already more expensive at point of sale than privatised companies, despite being heavily subsidised in taxes too.

Greedy miners were holding the country to energy ransom for extortionate pay rises, British Railways were expensive and famed for never running on time, British Leyland were turning out world class competition to Volkswagen such as the Allegro made with British Steel that was overpriced and of such poor quality that cars were rolling off the production line already rusty.

She did what was necessary and crushed the lazy, unionised, subsidised national industries that did very little except turn out overpriced, poor quality goods and services at great cost to the tax payer and also the direct customer.

As I said - she won. Great Britain won. The only people that are bitter about it are those who lost their easy meal ticket paid for out of the public purse.

she sent my friend to his death .... but he went willingly and i know Mark would have been first in the queue to get on the boat to the Falklands ... good or bad some things she did were shite but some things she did for this country were right at the time ..... killing the unions was right i remember the power cuts and all the strikes in the car plants ...... some of the things were so wrong ... the pole tax ....selling everything off .. we are all paying for this now.. .... who is worse her or the nobbs in charge now

Greedy miners? You have any idea what minets were earning then? You have any idea what working conditions were like? You are displaying a staggering level of ignorance. I can't listen to your ill informed drivel any longer. We have never agreed Brewster. And that will never change. You wade into subjects that you have no idea about. Time and time again you do this before it becomes clear you are trolling. Just because you make lots of noise, certainly doesn't make you right.
Im out. Ill leave you to grieve your Iron lady.

She won, we ALL lost.

Unfortunately she died of old age and outlived many of those that she inflicted suffering and misery on and I can take no great pleasure in a frail old woman's passing. Those who measure life through wealth, hold her in high esteem. In my country she was almost universally hated for reasons that those who hold her in high regard could never understand. I would have prefered she had died in her prime, and I would have then danced on her grave and raised a glass in joy and celebration with many of you, and many of the great friends and family who alas have now passed away. My thoughts are with them on this day.

are them in office any better..... no nothing changes.... we are all losing now

Or to paraphrase, Gareth - "I have no counterargument to your just points so I'll just call you ignorant and run away."

Enjoy your Maggie's Dead party. Don't blow your hands off with those fireworks. An amputee coal miner is about as much use as a, err, well any British coal miner these days.

we all vote for bullshitters who lie to us so they can line there pockets.... she was the right person at the right time ... but messed up like all the politicians

The thing is, Volumex, I genuinely believe that nearly everything she did as PM was borne out of a desire to make the country a fairer, more prosperous place. The only people who are bitter are the socialists who wanted to have their share "fairer" than everyone else.

i agree she did what was right at the time but as usual some thing were good and some bad

Brewster, I really dont have the time to argue on here. We will never agree, and i think the only thing we can agree on is the futility in us continuing this. I think i have laid out my feelings on Thatcher, im sure no one will be in any doubt which side of the fence im on.

As for your insistence that privatisation is great.... Ill agree with you, IF you can give me one single example that a sell off to the privste sector made that srctor, moreefficieny, less costly and privided a better service.
In all cases, services been degraded, while money is creamed off the top to shareholders, instead of being re invested. ..
Privitisation should have been illegal. It wasn't theirs to sell. It was mine, and it was yours.

The unions may have been powerful but they were mostly reeling from what had gone before. Everything needs to be placed in correct context and perspective. Regrettably you, as always, wish to ignore this in favour of sound bite.

During the lifetime of many 70’s union members & leaders they had suffered the thirties depression, forced labour camps and then fought for the country that so undervalued them. Many of these workers had lived through times of great unfairness and wanted that to change. For decades the working class were exploited and these folks wanted to redress the balance. Did they go too far, want too much, and too quickly? Undoubtedly

You can say what you want about the 70’s hard times but the fact is the economic hardship was felt by ALL sections of society. This is one thing thatcher did change. Every economic downturn since has been distinctly unfair, the more wealthy you were the less likely you have had to endure the pain. Just look at today..

To insist Mrs T’s motives were to create a fairer, more prosperous place are a farce. The majority of people were only ever credit card & debt prosperous. It was a greed culture that has led to the debt culture we find ourselves in today. We Brits have one of the largest personal debt burdens in the world. The largest sector of our economy is finance, much of which is based upon us buying and selling our property / homes.

Many of our European neighbours kept their industrial powerbase ticking over, we laughed at them and said they were stupid. Today they are still building / Making stuff and exporting their products to the developing world. They didn’t lose their bottle and fall into the “They can make it cheaper elsewhere, so let’s sell up” trap as far as we did. We lumped almost all our eggs into the finance basket, rode the wave but eventually screwed ourselves. We still have a slim chance to innovate but we stuck in niche markets.

Nationalisation doesn’t work argument…… Oddly our European neighbours didn’t agree and they didn’t destroy their nationalised industries, they actually embraced and developed them. Today many of those companies now own and manage much of the UK PLC that Mrs T sold to them… Perhaps she should be known as the “Irony Lady”

Yes I hold socialist beliefs and value not for profit culture & business. You can spit on my beliefs and even suggest that I would seek to have my share fairer than everyone else. But this just isn’t true. You know me, have I ever behaved or acted in any way that was unfair. I suggest I have always been shown and proven to hold fast my beliefs, even to the point others have exploited me!

Sadly I feel it’s often those who feel they should be entitled to more who seek the fairer share. Their assessment is never based on evidence, they just know they deserve it.

If, like me, you worked in industry around the time that Thatcher came to power you'll know that British manufacturing industry was totally screwed long before she came to power. I worked in several iconic British companies: Colchester Lathe & Royal Ordnance amongst others - run-down and rotten to the core with demarcation the norm. Unbelievably depressing experience and so nearly stopped me becoming an engineer at all. I also visited Ford Dagenham - the worst of the lot. At the same time, Nissan Sunderland was just starting up. Which of those manufacturing sites is still thriving? It tells you all you need to know.

I don't think any union members would remember forced labour camps....?

My brother-in-law was auditing in Fleet Street (early 80s) and I still recall him being told he could not move a particular chair, something to do with union rules

The problem with a two-party system is that one *has* to be the diametric opposite of the other on any subject, irrespective of whether the viewpoint has any rationale to it.

Like a few of the other posters here, I was there and working before, during, and after Thatcher's rule. I was a member of a union for thirty years - but I also refused to pay a political levy long before it became a legal right so to do. I believe that a union is there to provide a common negotiating position between employees and employers, not something with which to hold employers to ransom; not something to featherbed employees with pay rises and position based on time of employment instead of ability; not something to provide rigid demarcation between jobs. There's little doubt to me - recalling the piled rubbish and the power cuts and Red Robbo pulling out the Leyland workers once again and Scargill's megalomania - that limiting the unions' powers was essential. Instead of representing the workers the vast majority were there for the political ambition of their leaders.

Thatcher made a major mistake with the 'right to buy' campaign. It was an obvious and not very successful attempt to bribe votes from council tenants; since it removed rental properties while paying way less than replacement costs and still leaving the councils with a duty to provide housing could only leave a shortage of cheap rental housing that persists to this day; net result is ridiculous rents paid to third parties who, remarkably enough, charge all the market will bear.

Privatising national infrastructure industries... not convinced that selling me something I already own at a knock down price so I can sell the shares immediately and make a quick buck and then watch the mess of cross-selling and downright fraud that the delivery of those services descended into should ever have been legal. Once again, it's a classic case of 'all the market will bear' disguised as complex pricing 'schemes' and companies who employ more people as sales 'executives' persuading me to swap from one to the other than they do on the infrastructure? Does water from one supplier taste better than from another? Does the gas smell sweeter? Is the electricity more sinusoidal? Now we end up in the position that we have to beg foreign governments to allow their (mostly government owned) companies to build us a nuclear power station or two...

I could go on.

There is no doubt that Thatcher was a strong person; she had her views and policies and stuck to them - whether they made sense or not. Unlike probably most of the people here, the nature of my job was such that I met her several times. In a social context, she was friendly and reasonable and persuasive; as a politician she was a demagogue as extreme as any other.

I'm interested in this. It wasn't long before that many of these industries were nationalised - I'm not sure any of them started as government bodies (railways, mines, steel etc were mostly started in the industrial revolution by private individuals). What makes going in one direction right but going back the other way wrong? I'm genuinely interested to understand this

Nice post MRS. I think there is a lot of people wearing rose tinted glasses when looking back at our engineering/manufacturing base. It may be true that more could have been done to preserve certain parts but it was sign off the times and a failure of both manufacturing bosses and the unions to modernize and become more competitive. In a global open market it was unsustainable to keep putting money in poor performing sectors especially when your out classes in both quality and price.

Interesting that some people are suggestion that we are in effect subsidizing big business buy paying benefits to paid workers and that companies should be made to pay their full "living" wages; weren't we basically doing the same by subsidizing companies which should be been able to turn a profit by themselves?

In 1979 British Telecom had over 200000 employees and it took 3 months to get a phone line installed. BT currently employs 33000 people, and I suspect it wouldn't take more than a week to receive a new line. As for the poor miners, in 1979 the South Yorkshire miners were far and away the best paid manual workers in the land....

There's no doubting one fact - Margaret Thatcher was a true Marmite figure of the 20th Century.

I'm probably going to surprise you by agreeing. It's not right in one direction or the other... however, it's fair bet that the people who started those industries were not the people who owned them after the nationalise/privatisation cycle was over.

I suppose the rationale for nationalisation is the same as for tax: it's perceived as a public good that should be in 'public' ownership. And, of course, the government has all the guns...

I just hope she's joined by Tony some time soon.

In a democracy the vote of an idiot counts the same as that of a sane man. Not sure who's quote it was but it seems apt

Quite right. But what I was getting at is that the majority of people at the time (idiots, perhaps) held her in high enough regard to allow her to run the country.

A good number of those voters (I've no idea whether it would be a the majority or not) will still be alive today and yet it seems that the majority of people now ill think poorly of her.

Have those voters now changed their opinion of her? Or are they no longer idiots?

The newsreader on the BBC lunchtime news is wearing black, the men are wearing black ties and all are looking glum.

Can I assume that, in the interest of balance, the bright clothes and smiles will come out in the evening programme?

In a two party system, unless there is a convincing opposition people will tend to opt for a "better the devil you know" choice. The Conservative message at the time was a seductive one for a lot of voters who believed in the Thatcherite creed, had lost all faith in the régime that preceded it and didn't believe that the opposition was credible enough to change their minds. The Falklands War undoubtedly won the Conservatives the 1983 election, with Thatcher's Churchillian impressions a big factor. Another thing that the Tories were first to adopt was the widespread and effective use of media and advertising through Saatchi & Saatchi. The unprecedentedly slick and media-savvy campaigns they produced left Labour reeling and looking out of touch and old-fashioned. A lesson well learned by New Labour...

As someone who voted for her, I don't see how that's apt at all.

Three reasons Maggie got into power:

Callaghan
Foot
Kinnock

As it happens in descending order of suitability as PM. Not that Kinnock minds, he's had his snout in the Brussels trough for years now.

Well, if the cap fits!

Foot was a good man and would, I believe, have been a good PM, but he was one of the first victims of the electorates preference for personalities, rather than politicians.

And so was born "sound bite" politics...

Little catch phrases that steer the masses. The Thatcher government may have been first but the Blaire machine took it to the next level. To this day policy is little scrutinized, so long as it can be captured in a buzz phrase we lap it up.

Every policy nowadays is being implemented for the "Hard working People of the Nation" and everything will be done to target the "Work Shy" However if you need to sell the same policy to other groups it will be "Protecting the most venerable in society" and will target the "Fat Cats"
All meaningless twaddle but we all fall for it.

Sadly it will get worse. I'm amazed at the ignorance of "young adults" who have no knowledge or interest in anything which isn't a Facebook status.

Politicians have to rely on soundbites, youngster's attention spans don't run to anything in depth. As for Salmond giving 16 year olds the vote in the referendum

As I read somewhere, if he really wants independence, give the English the vote...

As I said, it was a lesson learned by Labour and implemented with obsessive fervour by the New Labour spin doctors. Another example of Blair learning from his mentor!

Michael Foot was an amazing man and Andrew's comment is spot-on. He was eminently easy to parody and his intellect and passion were vandalised by cheap jokes about his appearance.
Callaghan shared the thankless task of John Major and Gordon Brown of taking over the office of Prime Minister without the (unnecessary but expedient) virtue of winning a general election.
Kinnock was another - perhaps the biggest - victim of the Conservatives' skill with the media. It was coincidental but probably inevitable that Spitting Image would exploit this beautifully too. From what I know of him (not much, but not nothing!), Neil Kinnock is actually a pretty decent bloke.

That'd be the flat cap so beloved of the working man? Which has gone out of fashion as the Polish don't like them...

Not sure what your point is here, RK? Are you saying that Polish people are the new working class of the UK?

Sort of ironic how the anti-Thatcher protesters are celebrating by drinking champagne....

But a nationalised service meant that you got a line if you wanted a line and at a fixed price too. Even if you lived in the sticks and were not on the network you could get connected.

Today you can't have high speed broadband if it is not seen as being economically viable to bring it to you. Most of us don't have the option of cable services as they too won't supply if they don't feel its economically viable to deliver it to you, your town or village.

We ALL have electricity because the national grid built and paid for the infrastructure to link the UK power network and bring electricity to our homes.

We all have fresh water because the National water board built and paid for the infrastructure. The village where I live didn't get piped water until the 1950's. No private company had, or would, have ever considered such huge investment.

We have gas because the National Gas board paid for and built the infrastructure.

We the tax payer paid for our nations utility infrastructure, not private business. When the utilities were sold they were not sold at anywhere near what they were worth. They were sold to the Nation, so we could all invest and own a little part of them. Yet today almost all of them have been taken over by foreign investment firms and you can't even buy UK shares in them.

Today we pay most of our utility bills to venture capitalists and overseas investment corporations. These people don't take our money and re-invest in the infrastructure. They make huge proffits but if the infrastructure needs significant repair we are told it will be reflected in higher bills for us.

Gone are the standard unit prices. We now pay what the market will bear! And don't even get me started on the toothless utility watchdogs.

Should have had a smiley. I was referring to the fact that they are a significant part of our workforce.

Just to clear one thing, I am working class. My current salary and lifestyle may make me middle class (I don't know the criteria, no doubt Wikipedia could tell me), but as the son of a (staunch Labour) dockyardie's daughter, and an agricultural worker's son, I am well aware of my roots. My dad "improved" his prospects by joining the army. As I did the same I basically trod water in the working class pool.

I was exposed to right and left wing political opinion. For the first time ever at the last election my mum did not vote Labour. My dad stopped voting Tory when he died. I guess my dad had the biggest influence on me, but I can still recite the anti-Royal, anti-Tory, (and especially anti-Churchill) rhetoric of my "pinko" grandad. He died before Thatcher came to power, but I doubt he would have been a fan.

To be fair I wasn't particularly. I along with most on here, disagreed with the utilities sell off. However I agreed with breaking the unions. I can remember uncollected rubbish on the streets, the three day week, bodies stacking up in mortuaries and power cuts. Closed shops, wildcat strikes, striking in sympathy and restrictive practices? I don't miss any of them. The days of Unions representing the downtrodden serf were long gone before the 70s.

Why on god's green Earth would he want independence? He's a nationalist; all of his power comes from being able to bang on about how Scotland should be independent. If it actually is then he's out of a job

A few other comments about various things in this thread (I wish I'd had time to partake in it more)...

On Thatchier (even more Thatchy than Thatcher) - the first thing I think of when I think of her is her famous, "The lady's not for turning" speech. You can't argue that she could certainly give a speech.

Something that's bothered me for a long time though, is how it became good to 'principled' as politician and weak to U-turn. I want my politicians to listen to the electorate and, more importantly, change their policies if they're not working. When did that become unacceptable for politicians?

Nationalisation vs privatisation - I think most of us would accept that all of one or all of the other is bad. Private industry always has to have its eye on the bottom line, but, by the same token nationalised industry often lacks the motivation to succeed (look at British Leyland - years of churning out dreadful cars, different dreadful cars that were the direct competitors of the previous dreadful cars, stupid working practices, such as carting unpainted bodyshells 300 yards down the road, on a transporter, to be painted).

For me Mrs T went too far down the privatisation route, there was a lot of life that wasn't cost-effective, but was still valuable. Unfortunately her blindness to the difference between those terms seems to have been passed on to her ideological successors.

I can agree with some of this. There were elements of trades unionism that were out of hand, bad and needed to be dealt with. The trouble is far too many of the others, the progressives, got swept up in the union bashing and the balance went too far the other way.

I have a very similar background to yourself, but have served as a Trades union rep. I got into the movement in order to oust someone who was not acting in the best inerests of members. I was part of a progressive engineering team who saw partnership with management as being a far better way of getting things done. And this worked really well. Unfortunately a few years ago we were merged to form Unite. The local T&G team was far larger than us, far more militant and undermined all we tried to do. Not being prepared to fight the leadership, and having no other option I resigned as a shop steward and am no longer a union member.

I am regularly asked by management and colleagues to re-consider...

What water company provides your water? I suspect that a private company can and did make that investment judging by your location (as they did up and down the country).

I wonder what the UK would have been like without her. Like any humnan she got some things right and some things wrong.

I imagine without a strong/determined government there would have been a continued slow decline, more strikes, more subsidies of the nationalised industries and maybe in the longer term higher taxes, inflation and further bailouts from the IMF.

Maybe nationalised industries did create jobs, but that was an illusion that wouldn't have been sustainable in the long term.

On balance we could have had much worse.

Well there's some evidence that a right-wing coup was being planned in Britain in the 70s, to sort out problems such as industrial relations, so maybe by getting a strong right-wing prime minister we avoided a military government.

We'll never know.

And we all have railway lines because....oh sh!t, the government (Labour as I remember) ripped them up
(ETA - I suspect it was private money that laid them up here too - and there were loads)

And, actually, we don't all have piped water, I certainly don't have gas (though I suspect it comes from closer to me than you ) and certainly many of us have more precarious electricity supplies than others. Oh, and then there's the roads, and the mail (I pay twice as much for a parcel in twice the time) - shall I go on?

We're all equal - just some of us are more equal than others....

May the Iron Lady rust in peace !

Thirty years ago my father was shop steward for a bunch of lorry drivers. The union evicted him for being insufficiently aggressive/obnoxious... the drivers resigned en mass from the union until he was reinstated.

Ernest Marples (CON) appointed Beeching. Report was puplished in 63 and implemented by the Government (CON). Labour were elected with a pledge to halt the closures but didn't. By 67 they introduced legislation to protect line but by then many had already gone!



In 79 we had Maggie and then privatisation. The last 30 years have seen far less infrastructure investment than the 30 years previous!



Cool, I like that But to be fair you have chosen to live in Scotland... Maggie did more to destroy the Scotts than many of the tirants who preceeded her!

You do have to laugh at Amazon's top MP3 single download....

Mrs Thatcher. The only person known to have screwed more minors than Savile...

While listening to some local radio station today, (Im in Welwyn city of gardens). I heard that "Thatchers son is lost without her"... I actually spat coffee and almost choked.
An unfortunate choice of words.

Or possibly carefully chosen

For those too young to remember

Has anyone checked to see if she's been resurrected yet?

I believe she's rusting in peace...

Yay, woohoo, pass the lager.

Wait, we are still celebrating the death of a frail, ill, old lady, right?

Yep.

I cant understand how people will be having a celebration in central london on saturday to rejoice at her death . I wonder how many on the left and everybody else will feel when Tony Blair leaves this planet .I suspect the left will forgive him (iraq war)and give him a pass . Double standards

If I'm still around I'll have no idea what they'll be saying. I won't be able to hear it over the party noise...

I'm amazed how many of today's yoof, who have no idea who is in Parliament now, are outraged by someone who left Parliament before they were born.

The pot/kettle award goes to........... Glenda's a woman?

No, I think most people on the left hate Blair nearly as much as Thatcher.

A cracker! No prizes for guessing whose side the speaker John Bercow is on then....

I'm off to watch Question Time - where from? Finchley

Should be very lively!

The hatred for that woman is nothing to do with which party she represented or that she was a woman , it was the decisions she made and how she made them.

There will never be again or ever has been a PM that is held in such utter contempt by so many for so long.

She was an evil cow.

#
I think you will find Tony Blair is in the running for that .

Anyone else remember the ERM fiasco and Black Wednesday when that Arch Eurosceptic Maggie took us into the ERM? Then when we got a royal hiding we had to leave with our tail between our legs some £3 billion poorer?

Or when interest rates hit 15%? Consequently UK home repossessions totalled 129,000 in 1990-91

As for the Thatcher boom, it turns out Economists say it was all a pipe dream, it was just oil revenue, and the cash from the sale of the Nationalised industries, which means our manufacturing base was lost for no good reason. http://econ.economicshelp.org/2010/02/thatcher-revolution-1980s.html

In 2002 Labour had reduced the National debt to 29% of GDP (From around 44% under Tories)
By 2009 the UK National debt stood at 56.8% of GDP (Mainly to d owith the rescuing of the various banks)
In 2011 it had reached 68%
As of Q1 of 2012 it has reached 86.8% Rather than cutting any deficit, things are now worse than under Labour in the late 70s.

Still as they say, there are lies, damned lies and statistics

The Railways were nationalised not through political dogma, but because the "big four" Rail companies were basically bankrupt, and in those days before the roads transported most goods, it was an economic necessity that they keep running.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_Act_1947

The railways are good example of demonstrating that free market economics are not always successful, as in the rail mania boom many competing companies opened rail lines often very close to each other (as anyone who has ever been to Catford will testify!)

Got to admire Glenda... earns all her money in films, buys the big house in Hampstead, and once she's set up for life *then* she decides to be a nice visible socialist... always good to see someone who sticks to her principles.

Or revered by so many for so long.

Not sure about that - plenty have been unwaveringly keen on Churchill for a bit longer than Maggie.

Are you feeling ok, Brewster - this is a most un-Brewster-like post!

Ah Winnie..another Tory with a successful war under their belt..

Hmmm. We're going off topic here, but Churchill's record was not exactly unblemished either. Everyone has their faults...

He wasn't too popular with miners either - they're a hard crowd to please

Or dockyardies... or the Anzacs..

Or bomber Harris, at least the (lost) boys do now have a memorial!

Harris took the full backlash of the Government policy for Bomber command and is, to this day, hated by so many. Chuchill never made any public comment on the matter but through the war knew exactly what was going on, supported the policy and encouraged its continuation. Harris refused his war end knighthood due to Chirchill keeping quiet and then left the UK (Recently released documents have proven Churchills involvement).

Yet today one name stands for all that is British whilst the other goes down in history as a butcher.

They used to have to guard the Harris memorial as it was so often vandelised.

Silly boy. I hope he enjoys life on the dole.

Sounds a bit as though he had a few underlying issues going on...!

Don't fret too much, I'm sure it will all die down soon.

It's not like us Brits have a history of celebrating someones death, burning an effigy of them and letting off fireworks each year is it?

He is in his fifty's and was a Sergeant with the Metropolitan Police and will recieve the full pension,sorry to burst the bubble but can't see him waiting to sign on for job seekers allowance whilist begging for forgiveness.

Quite the opposite, he will be inundated with offers