RIP Nelson Mandela

Statesman. Freedom Fighter. Terrorist.

Amen

All true.

Iconic.

You forgot, responsible for the demise of South Africa.

Well, to be fair, the demise of the version of South Africa you wanted. Not sure everyone would see it your way...

Nope that would have been the Brits, the Dutch & the Afrikaans Nationalists. Mandella was a product of the policies and actions of those people.

He was responsible for our awareness and a beacon for the oppressed.

LOL.

You lot make me laugh.

And you make me sick

He was no different than Osama Bin Laden. I don't see anyone calling him a hero.

Murderous terrorist that deserved to be hung at the time for sabotage and espionage, but due to the good nature of the then white government, they spared his life.

What a silly mistake.

OK, my turn to LOL!

Biggenz, until you can get a sense of perspective, it is very hard for others with less of a personal axe to grind to take what you say as anything other than blinkered ranting.

Who's ranting? I'm merely stating facts old boy.

Are you totally deluded, or just a second rate troll??

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

"In order to be an immaculate member of a flock of sheep, one must above all be a sheep oneself".

"If you're arguing on the Internet and use a sheep metaphor then you're wrong"

Me, just now.

Baa

To be fair Mr Einstein was never a great human rights activist now was he?

A man.

Not evil personified nor a paragon of virtue.

It is possible to recognise his flaws and his achievements.

Now Winnie on the other hand...

And that was why he was such a great man.

*** With my Mod hat on, can I remind everyone that this thread has the potential to stray into lockdown territory quite quickly. I for one don't want to see that, so please can contributors be mindful of the forum rules? Thanks ***

Stuff politics. RIP, 95 year old gent.



I won't hear a single word said against that cute little hunny loving chap.

You've got to think that the reason he was a great man was for, you know, the breakthroughs in theoretical physics.

If 'not being a human rights activist' was the only requirement for greatness then even you'd count as a great man.

I don't really know anything about him other than the fact he's now dead and a song called "Freeeee Nelson Mandela" to be honest here. My bad.

Google him then....educate yourself!

Something you obviously haven't done.

I too couldn't give an informed comment on the man but I do find it very difficult to form an opinion on people like this after the event. It was the same with Maggie Thatcher.

Because they are such iconic people and seem to provoke such strong feelings in people it seems that everything you read or hear is almost certainly very biased one way or another.

Maybe not, but you can identify the key points in his life without too much of a political slant.

So you have no real knowledge of his life or past, yet you are quick to defend him?

What, is it purely because he was black?

Err....no, my opinion is nothing to do with the colour of his skin (unlike yours).

I defend him as he saw a dreadfully unfair political system and did something about changing it, then preached forgiveness and understanding, rather then retribution against those that inflicted that system upon his nation.

Yes, I'm absolutely convinced that the only reason anyone thinks Nelson Mandela was - on balance - a pretty positive influence, is the colour of his skin.

Can anyone else here sense a crushing irony?

Biggenz, I think you may have misunderstood - Oxfordsteve was not stating how he gleaned his understanding but encouraging another to find out more.

Oxfordsteve, it is no less unfair to Biggenz to say in return that his opinion is based upon the colour of anyone's skin.

You can disagree with each other, but please do it in an agreeable way.

The fact that you don't like him is enough for me.

The fact that he ruined a country for everyone, not just the whites, justifies my 'dislike' for him.

In case you haven't noticed, the majority of blacks in SA are far worse off now than they ever were under the evil white regime. Yes, they can say a few signs forbidding them to access certain areas have been removed and they are now 'free', but what else has improved for them?

I'd be delighted to hear, so please do say.

Well the fact that you left the country must be be a blessing for them all, white or black. So that's one positive he did for starters.

Pretty childish for a grown man, but as I thought, you don't have an answer.

I thank you.

You aren't interested in answers. It's the same with people who believe in conspiracy theories. They want and answer that proves their point and ignore all others. I, although being in a particularly childish mood today, can see why some might not like Mandela, and arguably his actions in his early years could be considered terrorism. But what he advocated, peaceful negotiation and reconciliation, has to be, and is, admired the world over by those of all colours and races.

Come on then, all you Mandela loving people, please list what he actually achieved in his term as president, and the legacy he left.

Show me where he made SA a better place.

They won the Rugby World Cup and then made a film about it. So Matt Damon's world probably got ever so slightly better.

One thing is certain, no change or "better place" is attainable in the twinkling of an eye, it takes at least a generation for major changes in society to begin to take effect.

You're maybe expecting too much too quickly whilst shrouded by your own evidently bitter experiences?

I wish it was that simple. Just look at Zimbabwe...

Yeah, what Zimbabwe needs is some good imperialists to rock up over there again and tell those locals how to live their lives....that'll work.

Why don't you try and say something useful for a change.

Are you seriously suggesting that on balance, life was better when much of the world was dominated by white imperialists?

I'm not suggesting it, it's a fact backed up by government figures.

OK. I guess you prove that old adage.....

Before this descends into "No, you're a smelly bum-face"...

A radical change in any country almost inevitably leads to a period where things get objectively worse, and the colour of the skins of the inhabitants is hardly a factor. Look at how Russia progressed after the revolution, or China after the great step forward, or how India has developed since the end of Imperialist rule.

So I wouldn't be so quick to denounce regression in South Africa. One thing that Nelson Mandela has undoubtedly done is shown black South Africans that they need not be 2nd class citizens, that they can be respected on the world-stage and, most importantly, that they can be masters of their own destiny.

He has planted seeds in his own country - men and women who are aspiring to follow his lead and to make their country better for everybody who lives there. Their success will be his legacy.

Apart from, that's not what's happening. The now black government introduced measures like affirmative action and BEE where uneducated, inadequate blacks get preference when it comes to new, highly skilled jobs, and any person of any other colour than black(not just whites) has to take a back seat even if he's qualified to the highest degree.

Or how about the fact that you are forced by government to not only employ, but give share of your company to a certain percentage of blacks, irrespective of whether they are qualified or not.

Or how about the fact that in the companies who support BEE, whites are categorically not allowed to invest. And with some it's just plain company policy not to employ any whites at all.

How is that not totally racist?

I can assure you, no amount of time will heal a backwards regime like that where the black majority gets handed everything as they are either not capable or willing to work for what they want.

And of course, the government (SA or elsewhere in the world) never spins the facts to make themselves look good.

I'm talking about figures supplied by the current government. You can't ask for much fairer than that.

Whilst I fall somewhere in the middle on Mandela you can't argue that when white people were running the agriculture of Zimbabwe people weren't starving while fields stood fallow. It's all very well running the nasty, imperialist white people out of Zimbabwe because it's "unfair" that they owned the land and not the black locals, but it's pretty idiotic to do so when they aren't capable of running a farm and feeding their own.

Oh, I'm sorry, did you expect to enslave a people for decades and then for unbridled gratitude to be their only response when you lifted the yolk?

Under apartheid you gave blacks the worst houses, the worst jobs and the worst education, you can't now complain that they're unskilled and uneducated.

The problem is self-correcting, because educational standards will improve and better educated blacks will move into the skilled jobs. It might take a while and may involve some pain, but it will happen. Hey, it's still doing better than China (where 20m+ people starved to death) and while the system corrects itself whites have to reap what they sowed.

Thank you for pointing that out. Yes we did give blacks houses, and yes we gave them jobs and we also gave them education! Not only that, but we also gave them their own home states where they were free to progress as they wished, with funding from the evil white government!

And what did they do with it? Nothing.

Now what do they have under their brilliant black government?

No houses, no jobs and no education.

Biggenz, do you fundamentally believe that whites are superior to blacks?

I don't think that anyone should equate Mugabe's version of democracy and Mandella's, but in both countries, as in much of Africa, it comes down to tribalism as much as skin colour.

The apartheid era was dominated by a sub-set of the white tribe who probably are no more and no less racist than any other African tribe.

I was unfortunate enough to have had to visit apartheid era South Africa. it wasn't a particularly happy place then, even for a non-resident white.
I can well understand why the regime was hated by the majority of its inhabitants. No doubt an Afrikaaner would have had a different view.

Do you fundamentally believe that Mandela was a saint?

By the way, this has nothing to do with my 'opinion'. It's all about cold hard facts.

Yes, and plantation owners gave their slaves accomodation, jobs and food - doesn't make them any less despicable though, does it?



Wow, the white government gave them land, in their own country, and a tiny share of the money from their own labours. It's hard to believe that anybody black voted for Mandela.

As always, you're still avoiding the crux of the matter. Is SA a better place now with black rule for the black majority?

If yes, please provide proof.

I'm not avoiding the matter at all, I addressed it several posts ago. I'm happy to admit that it's probably a worse place, but I believe it will get better, although it make take a while.

I do not believe Mandela was a saint, as you will see from my posts.

But I believe that Apartheid was an unforgiveable stain on the Afrikaner legacy. And on any white South African who cannot bring themselves to accept it.

South Africa faces a terribly difficult and uncertain future - with massive challenges like HIV/AIDS. It may well be that whilst a minority profits, the majority suffers either economically or in other ways (sound familiar?). The difference is that your belief that life under Apartheid was better in any meaningful way for black people is indicative to me that you belive that white people are superior to blacks.

Hence the question.

Careful, Jim, last time I accused him of being a r*cist I got an out-and-out threat for my trouble.

The black people that have been brought up by the apartheid ethos, including the next generation who heard all about it, will not assume country-running skills all at once.

The pendulum will have to be allowed to swing first one way then the other before an acceptable balance is achieved. Our perennial problem as a race is to keep a check on the swing going too far and therefore returning too far in the other direction.

I still suspect that your strong opinions have emerged from an injustice that has befallen you or your family during an over-energetic swing in one direction. You couldn't be making up your vehemence just in order to upset other people, that would be trolling afaik.

And no, it's possible that SA is not yet a "better" place in some respects - as agreed above it's going to take time. I was once advised if I didn't agree with something to join the organisation as I would have a better chance of influencing its decisions. It was a Trade Union in the 70's.

I sit on the same line of thought as Jim with regard to Mr Mandela.

I save my distaste of terroist politicians nearer to home.

I think Edinburh's comment about Pero's strong opinions carry some wieght.

But lets not play a game of goading and just enjoy a debate about the most current subject of news today.

The thing is, under Zuma, it's only getting worse. Africa as a continent can't be trusted to self-govern. It's not going to get better in the next century.

Just been watching old news footage of Thatcher pontificating about "terrorists".

All but made me bring up my dinner.



Mandela's silent magnanimity in their subsequent meeting would have had the maximum crushing effect on the former PM.

One person that understands the African mentality.

Without getting involved in the Apartheid/SA discussion I can empathise with Biggenz. If he is a SA than Mandela represents a terrorist organisation whose means were not justified by the end.

Stuff your one man's freedom fighter argument. People who bomb and murder innocent civilians are terrorist murdering scum. Particulalrly cowardly as they rely on the rule of law when they are dealt with. I for one hope I live long enough to see Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness shuffle off this mortal coil, hopefully very painfully. My only regret is that by not beliving in the greater spirit I know they won't be joining Hitler, Stalin, Poht, Saville in a deeply unpleasant place for all of eternity.

As an example.

IMHO it's more to do with people rather than skin-colour. You get similar "types" in whichever country you might visit.

After the demise of Franco there was so much potential hostility accumulated, in whose reign brother was pitted against brother, that the Spanish government had the foresight to impose an embargo upon any investigation of atrocity, any research, any public discussion for a period of 25 years.

In other words a generation would have to pass before the need for revenge and retribution would have a chance to simmer down. Insufferably hard no doubt for the wronged families but a practical way to avoid continuing bloodshed.

And there is the golden nugget.

As a Scots friend of mine once said, "There is good and bad in every nationality" Although he undermined that by adding "Except the Welsh. I hate the Welsh!"

Much better now.

I too now hate the French now they have a better draw in World Cup than England

I've held of posting until now, but I've never read a post containing so many polarized, skewed and unbalanced (ok too many similar long words but you get the gist) viewpoints and scantily veiled racism and xenaphobia in years.

And leave off the Welsh or we'll turn your water off !

If you turn our water off, where will you send your sewage

Great response. Naaah, we keep the sewage for the blue bottles of Ty Nant water and sell it to the Americans.

This has descended into racism; not acceptable on this forum.

You're all entitled to your views but this is not the place to air them.

The comment from Adam about being 'trusted to self-govern' is particularly offensive.

Consider this thread closed.

<the management>