coupe handling

Hi everyone, I'm just looking for a coupe at the moment, mainly because of the brilliant performance figures and startling looks, I wondered what the handling is like on them, is it up to scratch with hot hatches, GTI's and the like?

Smaller and lighter cars are often nimbler. The Coupe is not a throw around car. You have to drive it pretty clean. There's quite some flex in the chassis and wishbones and bushes should be replaced on a regular basis. It's a fun car to drive if it suits your style. Cars that had the necessary maintenance feel great.

by clean I assume you mean carefully, not lifting off to induce understeer and such? Do the cars understeer a lot when cornering or does the LSD really help? Thanks for the reply.

I have to agree with Kayjay, they don't handle bad at all.

I find them nose heavy which doesn't suit the twisty roads up my way very well. But certainly not bad. They are a GT car after all.

is there anyone round Peterborough or Stamford, lincolnshire area that has a turbo I could have a ride in? I have a friend with a n/a 20v and it sure sounded lovely, I would like to see the performance difference!

Bang on, and exactly how i describe the coup.

The coupe is a very agile car.
Even on stock suspension.
I have recently replaced all the dampers and springs on 2 cars for stock suspension and it transformed them both.

Aged suspension is the cause for the so called bad handling coupe.

It means the car will just not like it when you trash it round bumpy corners. Which is most corners on the open road. If you want to have genuine fun (on a track of course...), you don't just flick it into corners. It's like rally driving vs. F1 style clean lines. With the Coupe, if you want to set a fast time, you have to get the speed spot on, both on entry into a corner as well as when exiting a corner. Get it spot on and you will feel the car is extremely well belanced - when it slides, it'll slide over its 4 wheels. If you don't get it right and you have to / can accelerate after entering a corner, you'll lose the balance and it'll understeer slightly. If the bushes at the rear or the trailing arms are worn, you run the chance of snap oversteer.

There is one thing Coupe's don't like: bumps in corners. If the road is bad, you'll feel the (standard, but also most uprated) suspension doesn't filter it out enough and you can feel the chassis getting a bit 'detached'. If you hit a big smooth bump in a corner, the car might throw its rear end out - but in a controllable way.

I find the slow in fast out approach works well. You can accelerate mid corner and feel the nose tuck in, rather than wash wide, as the visco unit works it's magic. It's an odd sensation frankly!

I'd agree with John, most coupes will still be on their original springs and dampers, I know mine is, and these will be well past thier best. If you don't fancy lowered suspension then renewing these with OE items will no doubt improve the handling no end.

I wouldn't expect a standard 20VT to have the handling of say a mk5 Golf GTI. That said they can be made to handle very well, Nigel won the TOTB handling FWD class for 3 years on the trot, and was up against much lighter cars.

a Coupe on standard suspension is decent, but gets very vague at the limits, with understeer AND oversteer AND bump-steer

With careful and considered modification, the Coupe can be made to handle spectacularly well

I had a brand new VW Polo as a courtesy car this year, and the ride and handling were sadly a lot better than the Coupe's.

thanks for all the input on the subjects guys, nice to see a forum where owners can criticise the car and discuss its faults. I think it is best if I can try a coupe before I go any further, time to trawl the local dealers for a testdrive!

I agree. It is weird how putting on the power seems to tug you into the corners. Don't try it in the wet though

Not when you're on the raggedy edge on track does it tuck in!!

Nigel - what would be the first modest upgrades you would recommend to inprove handling without loss of compliance / comfort on back-road driving for a 20vt6 / Plus (c 300bhp)

Would you suggest upgrded bushing anywhere? - Playing with adj camber? - Different sized wheels / tyres?

What springs and dampers would be next upgrade?

I am not looking for a scuttle shaking ride, nor necessarily geatly improved grip, simply non scary handling when you lean on it a tad, and not relying on trail braking / power lift off to cancel out u/s / induce oversteer - c 30% better than a GT-6 would be nice

Also like to avoid any set-ups that dont improve handling of mid corner frighteners such as camber change, severe undulation, simple med pothole

Car will mainly be used on back roads, no circuits or high speed motorway 'heroics'

Upper strut brace as a first handling mod. I've got one and it makes a big difference to the way the front end feels.

Make sure the wishbones, track rod ends and ARB drop links are in good condition too. Changing worn items to new ones make the front end much more compliant.

There you go. If your car doesn't feel very good and consistent, it's mostly due to the fact there are 15 year old important parts on there.

Personally, for every car:

Wishbones every 15k
Dampers every 45k or 5 years
Bushes every 30k or 5 years
Track rod ends, top mounts every 45k or 5 y
CV joints every 30k or 5 y
Anything else every 7-9 years

If you do a suspension refresh and it feels oh so much better, it means you've waited for way too long.

well pointed out kayjey

as for chassis flex though that can be improved greatly by the welded subframes which sorts the front end out nicely

Can anyone do the front subframe welding, apart from cc as I need someone more local?

why more local if you want one technics il bring one back next time i go up which will be soon

How much?

ask him mate. as for collection you could meet me at a services when im traveling back down

Cool, thanks.

I was reading this and thinking "Who's got a 20v around here?!" Then I realised that's me!

Good luck with the search Will!

Fitting a front strut brace made a massive improvement in directional stability.

Lowering transformed the corning

When it was new the Coupe was fitted with Pirelli PZero tyres, and the handling was absolutely brilliant. Soft, grippy, quiet etc. Only problem was that the wheels would get kerbed.

I ruined mine with cheap tyres - Quick Fit Power Stars on the back made it feel like it wanted to swap ends in the wet, and later P6000s on the front induced understeer so bad that I couldn't get past a Focus round a 2 lane motorway sliproad.

Proper Bridgestone Potenzas or the current Goodyear Eagle GSD3s give it the ability to run rings round most other cars on the road (and a lot of modern cars have quite good tyres on them) so you definitely need to go one better. And if you shop around they can be had fairly cheaply.

Only problem is that you are so far from the limit of adhesion that you lose the connection with the natural handling dynamics of the car. (it is nose heavy at the end of the day)

So that's my point of view - Decent Tyres - the cheapest way to go faster round corners.

Almost all handling mods will reduce compliance or make a compromise somewhere

In my opinion, to make a Coupe handling sharp and predictable, you'll need the following

1) Upper strut brace
2) Lower subframe brace (or weld the subframe)
3) Lowering springs and uprated shocks (billies and Eibachs are the most common choice here, but there are others - I have Osrav and Eibachs)
4) Poly-bushed front wishbones
5) Uprated rear anti-roll bar (don't bother with the front) 22mm will transform the car - 24mm will make it even better, but it'll start to get a bit 'pointy'
6) 1 degree of negative camber
7) the best tyres you can afford

This setup is very close to my own - I've spent a long time (and a few quid) getting my car so that it's perfectly bearable on a 500-mile motorway slog, but also very stable and predictable round the twisties

Thanks Nigel, that pretty much follows my feeling for a common sense route - however not sure what best compromise on wheel size & tyre spec (width / profile)

Who would be in your top 3 specialists prefered for fitting and set-up

Have you found that you need 1 deg neg on rear too, or just front to unsettle rear a tad on turn in together with ARB upgrade? - Presumably these are after market adj wishbones / mounts? - What spring rates and lowering F/R would you suggest for the Eibachs for pleasant road only handling?

What would be your min recommendation for brake upgrade - pads only all round for the Plus? - front only stainless flexibles to get some innitial bite at the front?

His wife has to ring Motormech to get to speak to Nigel

Proccy has it right - it won't be long before I get my own door keys....

Motormech has a permanent loan of my rather expensive camber gauge, so Paul has the correct kit to set up the front end.



No - keep the rear standard - changing it would be hugely expensive and would require custom engineering. The rear isn't a problem anyway



No - wishbones and topmounts are standard - There's a couple of methods of getting negative camber on the front - the easiest way is with camber bolts



No idea - I don't believe that Eibach offer a choice of spring rates - the normal Eibach springs are fine



Pagid Blue for everyday use, and HEL stainless braided hoses (make sure you get the extra-long hose which runs from the caliper all the way to the inner arch union - it replaces the solid pipe from the caliper to the strut)

thanks for your opinions everyone, I bought DanDan's 20vt in the end. Absolutely loving it so far and think it might be a rare long termer for me. (longest I have had a car is exactly one year)

thanks - i see the fcc springs are prefered as a road compomise.

I hate a car that 'crashes' over poor road surfaces or is likely to judder the dash frequently so concerned the Eibachs or the new coil overs to be a step too far?

Prefer to keep sidewall as deep as possible for same reason - what tyre spec would be suited to spirited comfortable back road driving? - I appreciate such a set up will be a compromise, but regretably I suspect my Brands days are behind me.

Would consider 17 inch for aesthetics and bigger possible contact patch if comfort is not compromised when appropriate tyre spec is selected

what tyre specs for both rim sizes given comfort / performance compromise - I would prefer max sidewall profile that is sensible - 55? - Bear in mind springs will be dropped to Eibach or FCC level

griffster - Eibachs can be fine, as long as the damping is correct. This is why Eibachs on standard shocks is not a good idea - the damping is simply too weak to control the firmer spring

I would advise against mucking around with tyre profiles - you'll make your speedo inaccurate. Stock to 205/50 16, 225/45/16 or 215/40/17

I run Eibachs on Osrav shocks and 40-profile tyres on 17" rims. Although the ride is firm, its definitely not uncomfortable or jiggly. On very bumpy roads, it can get a bit annoying, but then if I wanted supreme comfort on bumpy roads, I would have kept Wifey's air-sprung P38 Range Rover

If you're ever in the Midlands, I'd be happy to take you out for a spin, just to show what a decent suspension setup can feel like

Thanks for lightning response, I am near Corby Northants, where are you based?

Rugeley, Staffordshire - between Lichfield and Stafford

I'd agree on that, and plus that fine 225/35-18 alternative.
Also agree on the Eibach's, not much wrong with them, but the problem with the std dampers is not so much weakness as wrong spectrum. Lower a std Coupe and the shocks are in full-load-mode, hence HARSH. The Bilstein B6 or Osrav's have a wider/lower 'normal load' range and so, comfier.

Also; when swapping shocks, do please mind the length of the front shock cylinders. In the case of the Bilsteins they are much longer than std, making the Coupe sit on it's rubber bump stops. THAT is crashy, but surprisingly common..
Very easy fix though; cut them rubbers a bit.

Also 2; on my car the battery-move-to-the-rear actually made a greater improvement than the famous strutbrace. (yes you probably have to try it to believe it)
And the lower strutbrace did even greater effect, though it is a good idea to mod it a bit. It's too often too close to road obstacles, I read.

yes i was thinking of moving batt to ns rear

Hi there I have a coupe and in grimsby has kw suspension on and updated turbo your more than welcome to come try!

useful thread , do we have a condensed version of a basic and clear list of coupes suspension upgrades ? much like nigel just posted and more detail about subframe welding ?

These might help:

Overview of Shocks & Springs

First Handling Mod

yep things like that gunzi cheers