coupe handling ...i think its to good for a FWD

well after months weighting for my new set of team dynamics rims , falken tyres , set of shocks and front bearings ive finally fitted everything and i cant belive the grip the car had, i now once i mentioned that the coop didnt have much grip but all the bits i had where broken so now i understand why all you guys tolled me that the coop was excelent.
now im weighting for the lowered springs and hope that will giveme better steering wich will probly do, and rear bearings.

i now its a fiat but.....i love it.

told you so.......

A well-sorted Coupe is up there with the very best FWD chassis - all it takes is a few choice mods to bring the 15+ year old design up to modern(ish) standards.

jings i cant wait i,ve got all the bits but my mech is up to his eyes at the moment to fit my stuff

yeeppp , didnt imagine it would make such a big differnce.
be pacient jimboy your moment is coming.

I too know it's a fiat SO.... I love it.

Yeah a well sorted Coupe is great on the road.

I really need to get mine to handle now although it's on Apex springs and uprated shocks already?

Why does mine not handle well

Have you replaced all the suspension components ? (wishbones, top mounts drop links etc) Do this and it will feel like a new car!

My car has all new suspension components, front upper and lower braces, Whiteline rear ARB, Bilsteins and Eibach springs and the handling is excellent! It could probably be made better with coilovers, but I have to use my car everyday and dont fancy a really hard ride (its already quite a bit harder than standard)

GraemeC is right , new wishbones and top mount make a lot of differnece when new

How much are we looking at? I have a 20v NA, it has NOT been lowered, it currently has Turbo+ wheels on it and the ride comfort is really really bad, even with the standard na wheels its no better. What should i be looking at checking? it seems a bit too tough a ride. . .

Mario

Mario, have a look here for bits to replace. Alternative Autos (amongst others) can supply parts, pattern & OE Fiat.

I have to say I didn't notice much difference with new topmounts/wishbones.. I did with new shocks though!

People say the Coupe understeers, but I think mine corners brilliantly. Does this understeering only apply to the 20V?

-OR-

is it because some people are pussies and don't put their foot down round corners?! (only works with turbos!)

My 16VT definitely handled better than my 20VT. However the 16VT was on 18" wheels.

The kindest thing I can say about my standard 20VT is that it is average. There are plenty more cars out there that handle better.

Now you've opened a can of worms!!!

I don't mind, as I speak as I find.

The handling difference may hev been down to the wheels. I haven't driven a 20VT on 18" wheels, so I can't say for sure though.

Both cars were on the standard suspension. The 16VT had done 107k miles, my 20VT has 84k showing, although my 20VT has had all of the front suspension replaced apart from the dampers and springs themselves..

Well 18's should have made it handle worse, so that's saying something.

So there is a point to having a 16VT; they can go round corners!

not really "all of the front suspension" then really, especially when the standard springs and dampers account for most of the lack of precision for which the car is criticised.

a well-sorted 20vt is a formidable handling car. Yes, I know there are MANY better-handling cars out there, but very few are FWD, and those that are, tend to be quite recent designs. If you allow the Coupe some improvements to compete with more modern kit, it can be VERY good.

If you look at some of the RWD (and 4WD) cars I beat at TOTB this year (half a dozen Skylines, handful of Exiges, that sort of thing), there's no way you could ever claim that the Coupe won't handle

I see your point Nigel, and I do intend to replace them soon.

The thing is though the 16VT was also on its original dampers, and they had done even more miles.

18s handle worse on poor road surfaces but I actually think they are better on a good smooth surface. The sidewall of the tyre feels stiffer where as a standard tyre feels like it does \ ____\ that more.

Come on Nigel, when are you going to give us a full description of your set up??

I don't think I could afford Nigels setup.

You'd be REALLY surprised.....

this is the total of ALL my handling mods

Secondhand Eibach springs - £50
Secondhand Koni shocks - £100
Lancia Dedra front ARB - £150
Novitec rear ARB - £135
Polybushed front wishbones - £200
Secondhand strut brace - £50
Lower subframe brace - £85

30 years of driving experience - priceless

nothing special, about £800 in total, spent over 5 years.

Have to admit, I am surprised - my own setup is one of the tried and tested coupe formulas and not that different to yours...

Eibach springs
Bilstein shocks
Whiteline rear ARB
Strut brace
Lower subframe brace (thanks!)

No polybushes, but wishbones etc. all renewed less than two years ago and mainly motorway miles since

Interesting, perhaps I need to take my coupe on a track to see what it can do.... This could get expensive...

Did my first drive with lower front subframe brace (OMP) and it really made a difference.
A lot stiffer front end which you could feel over uneven surfaces especially, much like the effect of the Sparco strutbrace.
I suspect it would even effect the handling a little sometimes, possibly under hard braking.

Very nice, now I just need a welder to adjust it for max clearance.

my time has come at last :D....tomorrow my mechanic is going to fit all my suspension bits & brakes & bits & bobs.. ive over the months spent a small fortune on some upgrades & colleted them :o.....so tomorrow it is

thats great jimboy!!!

hey,hey,hey......all the bits on the coop :D..poly wish/bones,billies, track rod ends,drop/links new brakes,bottom strut/bar etc,etc....like a new car
only small issue is the oil drain plug,the bottom/bar is in the way my mate who is a mechanic with his own business charged me £60 for the whole lot, now he IS a friend

Yeah, on mine too but there is space to move the bar around 40mm forward, clearing the plug. Also it can come up a bit for more clearance. Ask your mechanic to bring out that mig-welder!

good news jimboy!!! now enjoy it like me , hahahah.
handling is very good for a 14 year old car , im busy waiting for my lower spring to be fitted i wonder if it will make a difference

cheers

hey Crgracing found a tyre place open on a Sunday so going to get tracking done.i think its better to get this checked out sooner than later.(any excuse for a wee blast :D)
i know what you mean, boys&their toys ach i don't think ill ever grow up
just a quick update...had the tracking done £30 for 15mns work ach i cant complain anyhoo wow this car of mine sits on the road like sh[te to a blanket.. i see what Nigel&others means by a well set up coop & i haven't touched the ARB,s don't know if i will now. i may leave that for another time :D... i,m still smiling

yepp tracking shoulb be checked out every year or so, well thats what i do.

it would be creat to have a coop like nigels but we have to go bit by bit , if only parts where cheaper...hahah but i will get a perfect setup( dont now when jhahah) hope soon!!

cheers

ive been tolled by a friend that i should put a rear wing on the coop, but i dont think it would do much downforce would it? and second dont really like how wings look on the coop unless its like a DTM style wing that would probably look much better i think

Nooooooooooo!

Wings on road cars do nothing for downforce, maybe a tiny bit for fuel consumption (they reduce the vacuum to the rear of the car by upsetting the airflow)

However, they totally destroy the looks of the Coupe.

If you fit one, you WILL be ridiculed - you have been warned

don't. coupé rear looks best as it is.

Wings are for aircraft, end of!

hum i think it depends on the car!
rwd car do lay down the power with them better
on the coop it will look stupid and have little efect at all

yepp guys I agree that coops with rear wing looks like cr...
a lowered coop and 17"or 18" rims is the only think that i would do to my coop, maybe front LE lips but nothing else.

I remember clarkson talking about the difference the front splitter made to their 330d 24hr car on that Avantime article the other day. I wonder if there might be some significant gains by using one of these in conjunction with a decent diffuser?

Was it Freddan who had a rear diffuser, made by a chap at Volvo?

EDIT - Nope it was Per

Proper aero kits for production cars cost alot of money and time to perfect, although if you drive a car with additional downforce the difference is staggering.

This is a Fiat Coupe we are talking. A Car design that dates 15 years. There were no proper aero Kits back then for regular production cars. Proper aero kit on modern cars cost a lot of money because they go thru extensive Wind Tunnel testing.

What have you driven then Ruben?

jumeirah, u'd be surprised how much aero work there is on the coupe. for one thing, all the heat exchangers - rad, oil cooler, intercooler - are ducted. and this includes front splitters incorporated into the ducting design. this allows the coop to run smaller frontal openings to reduce drag and at the same time improve performance of the heat exchangers. even the latest japanese performance cars dont come with ducted heat exchangers and you pay a lot of money to fit aftermarket ducting that doesnt even work half as well as our stock design.

so pls guys, the coop doesnt need any more holes in the front, thank you very much. and if ur thinking of changing the front bumper/bodykit, make sure it doesnt obstruct the ducting. some guys have overheating problems with aftermarket front bumpers.

secondly, the coop has a front engine undertray that cleans up airflow under the front of the car. this is also matched to a working rear diffuser. yes, the 15 yr old coop has rear diffuser, something that is absent on all but the very latest japanese performance models. ever follow behind a coop and wonder why a FWD would kick up so much dust/dirt? that's the rear diffuser doing its work.

not to mention the coupe's superior shape which doesn't really need vortex generators, rear wings, etc. so don't sell the coop short aerodynamically even tho it's a 15 yr old design.

let's look at the other things the coop did 15 yrs ago which are still mainstream today - 2L high pressure turbo lump, starter button, brembo brakes, recaro seats, 6-speed gearbox, etc. there's a lot going for the coop even today. its no slouch.

redd

Redd you have totaly diverted this thread to something else. Your emphasising on 15 years and comparing small things like start button (outdated…today mainstream is engine on/off keylesss system), Brembo brakes (its a brand not technology), recaro seats (It’s a brand again, you probably meant Recaro look), 6 speed gear box (been there for 30 years)

Talking what is mainstream in todays regular sports cars well we would have to start a diff thread for that…pract everything is diffrent,Advanced clutch systems, transmission, suspension, powerfull yet eco friendly engines, Ball Bearing & Twin Turbos, high end ICE, lighting, electronics etc..
I own my 20vt for 8 years now. Love every thing about it. Nobody has said it is slouch. We were just inputing about the handling aspect.
End of the day whether you like it or not it is no modern machine but a Modern Classic period.

cheers,
Rui

sorry i thought we were talking about aerodynamics? my apologies if i digressed on the cosmetic aspects of the car...

redd

Chill Dude...Our Fiat Coupe rocks

With the crisis at the moment and all new car prices hiked guess we coupsters have the best deal.

Sorry to go on bout diffusors/downforce, but here's my diffusor. There are JPEG's for anyone to download for free.. Would really like to see somebody else making one too.

http://sfk.ibk.se/depa/index.php?sub=viewcar&car_no=321

The Coupe was way ahead of it's time aerodynamically (with Bangle what would you expect??) and this would enhance the rear downforce (where most cars have lift, not sure about the Coupe) at high speed a little extra. See it like this; you could throw away that sack of potatoes from the trunk!

Together with the LE/Plus-kit (which gives more downforce at the front with the splitters, and keeps the flow under the car better with the skirts) this is particularly ok.

that looks nice!!

I heard a rumour that Andreas Zaptinas redesigned the rear of the Coupe, as the original Bangle design produced too much lift.

The splitter does look good BTW.

Per your diffusor look gud

Do you have any evidence to back this up? If the front splitters were actually designed with aerodynamic testing, then I could be persuaded to invest in a pair. As for side skirts, I'd be very surprised if they were designed with air flow in mind, especially some of the aftermarket jobs...

I do like some of your ideas though Per, I will definitely do get my sills painted the way you have at some point

I agree with symonh2000 as Bangle designed the coupe but was never really around to put the aero on test. Because he joined as chief of design at BMW in 1991. The Fiat Coupe only rolled into production in 94 and the 20vt in late 96.

All this talk of diffusors - I've no idea if the coupe would benefit from one or not!

However, you can see vorticies behind the coupe when driving...

Next time you find yourself on a wet, empty motorway, take a close look through the rear view mirror - you can see twin vorticies coming from out the back of the car in the spray

next time it rain ill check that out.

I for one would be up for a set, anyone else?. I'm sure we maybe able to convince per to make a few sets???. Obviously I'd be happy to pay for them.

Cheers Tim

diffusor GB. Good ideal

i would be interested to.

I wouldn't be so sure... People have been trying for years but he won't have it

Yeah I'm sorry! I just don't have the time or energy to do several sets.

Still - you can print those JPEG's out in a fitting scale.
1. Print out http://sfk.ibk.se/depa/showfile.php?carpic_no=2196&type=picture 300% size and http://sfk.ibk.se/depa/showfile.php?carpic_no=2197&type=picture 200% size.
2. Check the scale on the print, it has to match the same distance on a ruler, etc.
3. Change the print scale setting until it matches that distance on the JPEG!

Cut out, and apply to either aluminium or plastic sheets (which I used, ca 2mm thick).

4. It's a little trial/error thing, but with some persistance you'll get a good picture where they should be.

# The cutout in the bumper is 643mm wide (exactly centered).
# Distance between the middle plates (at the rears): 210mm
# Distance between the outer plates (at the rears): 650mm

See pic: http://sfk.ibk.se/forum/attachment.php?s=fd2a0b15148e7764a378dbdc2537ee80&postid=82226

Left plate can be bolted at the front with a 10mm bolt/nut thru the heatshield (as shown in pic).
Right plate must be glued (I used hot glue gun) to the tank. (Easy to remove with a hairdryer if you like)
Rest is just small steelscrews.

A little loose guide there but I hope it helps!

More pics: http://sfk.ibk.se/depa/index.php?sub=viewcar&car_no=321

Per

Right then all, As long as it's ok with per. I'm going to make some of these up. Anybody interested?

Cheers Tim

ill be interested depending on how much you ask for the lot .
ill take one.

I'd be interested but would like to see a full review of one fitted to a coop and tested. If it provided only a few kgs of extra downforce, them I'm sure it would be noticed on a track or even fast motorway b road driving. An idea of price would also help me make up my mind

Ask any aerodynamic you trust and he will tell you it works!

How many kg's one can only guess without a windtunnel test.

Here's a pic showing the flow direction, how dirt/water has run along the top/diffusor ceiling, on one of the 2 middle plates:
http://sfk.ibk.se/forum/attachment.php?s=12d503ef044dde83ba5f51cedc5faff3&postid=82608

Actually, the fluid principals around this area are not that complicated as long as the rest of the floor is relatively flat. And the Coupe floor is VERY flat compared to most cars.

Feel free to compare with most std. "diffusors" on today's cars which has become a trend.. Almost every is near useless. The 500 Abarth diffusor actually looks like one of the most valid ones!

(another very "basic" area which works similar on many cars is the bootlid tail. That's why many upper-range cars have similar spoilers, such as the BMW M-cars, the Audi RS4, The AMG's etc. etc. The Coupe shape is not that different, so a "M3/M5-spoiler" is probably useful too. For better release/lower drag.)

per, on what basis do u claim the clio sport rear diffusor to be useless? i read that renault claims it produces significant downforce [40kg iirc?]. ive personally seen the diffusor and it's a better designed/made unit than the one on the coop. its larger, extends further into the car, and has the requisite 7-14deg rake.

the coop one is raked correctly but isnt near as large as the one on the clio.

redd

Ok that's a bad example from memory then, point is there are a lot of fake ones out there, just for looks.

The Renault: http://car4sport.ru/img/Renault%20Clio%20Sport%20V6_1.jpg

Yes it looks quite good, although it looks steep that angle. I hope there is no sharp break at the beginning, then it might work well.

Then again, who's going to make the effort to test the claims from Renault..? I think they calculated that too if you know what I mean.

There is no diffusor on the Coupe as std. Flat floor yes.

per, there is a diffusor on the coop. what ur referring to as a "flat floor" on the rear is a diffusor. it just doesnt have the pronounced "strakes" [the stock one has small ones] and "end plates" which uv added on to your diffusor.

redd

This is really getting OT..
But Redd, there is a certain aerodynamic function (incl. "suction" due to growing area) to a diffusor, see this quick funny scetch a mate did the other day:
http://sfk.ibk.se/forum/attachment.php?s=29937eaae5edc6199e4a0db4a8328c10&postid=54833

Anyway there is none of that on the std Coupe, just a flat floor and also an bumper edge spoiling the flow at the end.

I suppose what you could say is there's "half-a-diffusor" already. The "ceiling" of it.

Per, would you say you noticed any different to your car's high speed stability after fitting your diffusor? I'm sure that if it was going to work, it would be doing so and (quite noticeably) at 80-100mph...

No.
But the difference would be the same as having a big bag at the back.. And on Autobahn I've always had the car full of load anyway.. So - hard to tell!
A few kg's extra anyway, for sure.

tomorrow im going to pick up the coop wich went in for a radiator change, and i asked them to fit my apex springs ,
i just cant wait to see how it feels with the new springs.

cheers guys!

this is just incredible!! what a differnece 15 old car!! some say fiat are crap, some say tey are ok , but i think its excelent didnt expect so much grip with lowered spring , new rims, tyres, and suspension.
just loove my coooooooop!!!!