16VT vs 20VT handling

I have been told that a 16VT makes a better track car as it has noticeably better handling due to the lighter engine. Its also easier to work on the engine so its the better option to start with if its going to be a track/race car.

That makes sense to me, but are there any other opinions out there?

I've driven both and honestly couldnt notice anything between both cars when standard (handling wise). But the 16vt does have shorter gear ratios so might be better on the track in that respect.

Also the power delivery on the 16vt is far more on/off relying heavily on the turbo for its grunt so as long as you stay in the right power bands (which i guess you would on track) it would feel quite brutal.

The 16vt engine is argueably easier to tune, with much more parts available without having to make custom stuff - plenty of big power Integrale's out there that have done it all before.

The long gearing of the 20vt is great on the road, but on track where you spend most of your time in 3rd gear on a car with a big turbo you spend too much of your time at 3,000 rpm out of corners - where the car is not yet pulling hard.

Weight wise I'm not sure that the 16vt is a lighter lump - the 16vt as a whole is actually a heavier car than the 20vt.

The 16vt lacks the brembos of the 20vt, so I would expect on track that the brakes would be a very weak point.

You can get a coupe to go round corners well enough and stop on track - but you are looking at well over a few grand IMO to get this spot on. That's before you start looking at getting more power.

If you just want a quick track car then I think that there are better options out there for your money that will do the job better out of the box or that you could buy with a few mods already done to them....one thing that you will never (within reason) change is the FWD which I feel really limits your driving style on track unless you go for something like a clio 182 which has just the right amount of power to handle really well for it's chassis.

The main difference I noticed was the 20VT's quicker steering.

you also get more feedback through the 16VT!

load of rubbish!!

The 16vt engine weighs the same pretty much - look at the kerb weights. The 20VT has a wider track at the front than the 16VT so the handling will be different aside from steering rack etc.

What is the difference in weight and front track?

About 7 - 10kg and probably about 5mm either side

Slightly off-topic but did they sell the Coupe in Oz?

No they didn't. There are a few there now but they've all been imported privately.

Honda integra DC3, thats a good track car, forget the fiat.

My pet hate, the steering on the 20VT is too light, saloon car like, I intend doing something about this at some point.

Gareth

Kind of agree here, regarding brakes that is.

The 16VT brakes are superior as standard (on the road) and anyone can argue with me, but you're wrong. I drove literally dozens of 20VT's looking for mine and the brakes on my were better than any of the 20VT's I drove, this includes my LE fitted with DBA 4000 and Pagid Blue. This is on the road though, normal driving with the odd silly moment.
As for the track, I couldn't comment, in theory of course, uprated 20VT brakes should be a better bet than the 16VT ones.
As above, the handling I found to be very much the same, apart from the unforgivable over servo'd steering on the 20VT.

Gareth

Speaking about the steering, can anything be done as it's the thing I hate most about my coupe. You have no real feel (especailly compared to the integrale... proper power steering)

Cheers Tim

i had the pleasure of taking a 16vt out for a drive this weekend.

things i noticed, the breaks were better. i dont care what you say on a track but in real life day to day, the breaks were nicer to use. they have a bit more of a servo assist than the 20vt

the steering, its much much heaver than the 20vt, you get more feedback and it feels more safe. jumping back in the 20vt the steering felt much to light

what he said when he went out for a spin in mine, more low down grunt on the 20v, didn't recon much to the breaks and said the stearing was to light
but despite my mileage being 2x his, it felt newer

country lane drive, the 16vt
to have to use to commute the 20vt

on a track? i would take the 16vt

So why isn't it a straight forward rack change from the 16vt to the 20vt ?

I think it is Jimbo, the only issues being the track rod ends, I wish I hadn't sold my 16VT rack now, as swapping the, over would be on my to-do list for sure (if it's the rack that is). However, I thought the 20VT had a quicker rack than the 16VT, if this is the case, it's just a matter of the 20VT being over servo'd surely?

Gareth

Does that mean you have to change the pump?

The track rod ends form a 20vt could surely be fitted to the 16vt rack, they have the same fitment onto the track rods, it's only the diameter of the hub mounting pin that differs isn't it ?
I doubt you'd need to swap the pump, hydraulic pressure is quite a simple thing really and I doubt the pressures between the two cars differ.

Joe CC could probably clear up the differences between the racks and pumps.

The hubs, rod ends are completely different. The rack is a different length. Ask Joe. When you convert to Brembos there's a whole load of stuff you have to change.

Yes its a different diameter hole in the hub but swapping parts around isn't a big job, we're only talking about changing the rack not doing the brake conversion that requires lots of bit to be changed.

I guess the only way would be to put the two racks side by side and see what needs to be done ?

I'm sure you just need to add the track rod ends from the 20VT to use it on the 16VT, Doing the Brembo conversion on the 16VT however, as goon says, you need 20VT hubs, 20VT track rods (with work needed on the rack ends) and obviously the Brembos, discs etc.

Gareth

So is it possible to fit the 16v rack? to increase steering feel?.

20VT has a much faster rack, 2.2 turns lock to lock. 16VT is 2.9 turns.

Compared to my Tipo I did notice the 20VT has very little feel in the steering.

Umm, wondering if the 16vt rack is the same as a alfa 146, fiat marea etc.... umm

Not sure on the rack itself but the arms are different on a 16vt to a 145QV rack - the thickness is thinner on the 145 so they take different track rod ends with different tapers.

To use my 145 rack with the 16vt hubs I am using Alfa 164 track rod ends - these are the same taper but on a smaller thread than the coupe.

The steering is quite quick, only slightly less than the 145 setup.

Another point is how much steering lock 2.2 turns gets you on the 20VT - not much IMHO...

The 16v may have 2.9 turns but that give you more steering angle on the wheels, so how different are the actual ratios?

I would love to get this topic moving again as the steering on the 20v is imo the worst feature.
I just don't have the no how to comment
Has anyone else had more thought?

Well - I've just been out in my 16V n/a and I LOVE IT. What a car, the gear stick is just the right height and shape and the handling was fabulous!

What a lovely little car - I'm converted (though I did previously own one in 2005)

Welcome back from the 'dark side' Phil.
BTW, some feedback from your elected employee who gets to drive it would be interesting ...

From this thread I have decided.

I want a 16VT that has been fitted with a 20VT engine. That way I can have the superior handling of the 16VT with the 20VT sound and fuel economy.

I'm building a 20VT Coupe track car at the moment, the thing that I need to sort most at the moment is the gearing, is the gearbox from the Alfa V6 compatable? I'm looking at the posibility of fitting the final drive from a 3.0V6 166 to bring down the ratios.
Being off boost at 3000rpm at the exit of a corner sucks ass.

Anyhoo...

link to my project: http://www.octane.ie/forum/showthread.php?t=28185

Liam

Tried changing down a gear?

eeeh


yes

The reason why the 16VT handles better is because the engine is lighter.

Oh not this again, there is nothing in it between the two when it comes to weight and as for handling, it's the same chassis !
The only difference is the amount of turns lock to lock on the rack.

I have driven both and find the 20vt superior,although some say a 16vt has a lsd it drives like it hs`nt!
I was in a 60k original with standard power 195bhp and it span up in the dry coming out of a corner which the 20vt would have handled better.
I believe lighter is better but the extra weight pushing the tyres into the road and the lsd on the 20vt makes the 20vt the winner

But i`d still like a 16vt as there getting rare now.

Dave

NOT AGAIN

Oh please, LSD ? No version of the coupe has LSD but both versions of the turbo have a viscous coupling on the drive shaft.

Lets please not get into silly the one version of the coupe is better than the other discussion again. There really is nothing in it between the two.

No lsd,I stand corrected ,i knew there was some kind of mechanical help.

I was just stoking the fire I love them all

Dave

I was joking.