Lack Of traction

I did a track day at Anglesey last Sunday, this track has a number of tight corners. I found getting the power down effectivly on the exit of these was difficult especially compared to other cars. My car is a 20VT wih Yokahama Parada's and FK coilovers. Can anything be one to improve this.

Is the engine modified?

i would try some camberbolts set at -1.5 degree's and see how you get on.

you could get a 22mm (Or bigger) rear anti roll bar.

Do you have a binary throttle action? i.e either foot to the floor or off completely?

Two questions.

1. What are these 'other cars' you're comparing it to?

2. What suspension/ chassis mods are you running?

I have to admit some of the cars were perhaps not fair competition, cars such as 911's and M3's, but I expected to be quicker than the less high performance 3 series. It wasn't the fact that they were quicker it was that they were a lot quicker.
I have FK coil-overs and a strut upper brace

As Marco says above, a stiffer rear ARB will make a massive difference to cornering performance

A little more camber would also help, although I'd stay under 1.5 degrees on the road

Any high-performance RWD car is going to have the edge over a Coupe on the track, although its surprising how close you can get

Forgot to metion got 1.25 Deg neg camber. Is it just the rear anti-roll bar that needs stiffening

When you say your struggling to get the power down, are you spinning the wheels?

I was trying to accelerate at the fasted rate without spinning the wheels.

never been on a track but would imagine what holds true in mx is same on track with a car

if you come into a corner wrong and come out in the wrong part of the motors power or the wrong gear you will spin on exit trying to get the power down

some bikes (my big 4st) i need to carry a lot of speed in and around the corner and be gentle on the throttle on the way out always with some throttle to keep my wheels turning all the way round the corner..i have done all my braking and am off them before corner and on throttle slightly all the way round to aid traction(no big on off business)
i see some come stonking in brake hard gear no throttle at all or still on brakes in corner then try to accelerate out and woder why they spin up and go sideways

there must be something like this but car related if you know what i mean to work your way round quicker without spinning on the way out

can someone translate that to car for me

Fit some good quality dampers and bin the FK's and you'll improve things straight away. FK's are all spring and not much damping so the wheel won't be getting chance to stay in contact with the floor, it'll be skipping over it.

Tyres - if your doing a few track days, get some track tyres

whats the point of coilovers if they dont work on track? and if they dont what does

There seems to be some sort of mythical reasoning that fitting coilovers will transform a car into an amazing handling track beast, they don't. Well let me change that, they can if you throw enough money at them.

A coilover is only as good as the parts it's made from, a damper and a spring. In FK's case, it's a poor damper or at least one that is underdamped. FK's fix was to fit a stiffer spring so the spring now does all the work without being controlled properly.
Under acceleration the wheel could start to skip as the rapidly bouncing spring isn't being controlled.

A smaller spring like those in a coilover will resonate at a higher frequency than a large one such as a standard spring or an Eibach lowering spring so the damping has to be able to cope with this, unfortunately on some of the cheaper coilovers they have fitted cheaper parts so you end up with a bouncy feeling ride.

How old are the wishbones and do you have a lower strut brace fitted?

Brilliant point!!

get some R888's!

i cant believe how much grip they really give you!!

jimbo i am glad you said that as i found the coilovers on my le when over 120 very bouncy enough to make me back off even on the motorway..i have the stronger springs that are supposeed to rectify this but dont want to fit them to find its not much better
i only mentioned this last week as when i had standard dampers and eibachs i could get 160+ without ever feeling the suspension make me nervous


in this case what would you think the best set up for fast road /track?

one of the best set up that work and are in an affordable budget would be the billy and Eibach kit...

but if you have a grand or 2... Gaz coil overs

i know about the billies eibachs but are we saying this is the best without spending big? what about osravs etc?
i am not too bothered about the ride quality on road but i want to drive it as agressively as possible on track days so dont want something thats is going to be overwhelmed nor do i want to bounce to the point of backing off ..is there anything that you (or anyone knows of to suit)?

Osrav/Billy combination would be better for you if your wanting more control of the suspension.

Yep, I found the FK's dangerous, you could almost lose control on a fast bumpy stretch of road, like you said, you end up backing off to regain control.
The harder springs are a bodge fix from FK to cover up a rubbish damper, because the spring is so hard the damper no longer does any work, the spring does it all.

Is there any other make of insert that will fit the FK strut. It seems a waste to have to replace the complete set-up

There is a Koni insert that will fit the fronts but make sure you get the right one, I ended up sending back a set of inserts as they had ordered the regular coupe Koni insert, not the one for the FK strut.

Your better off going to an FK dealer and ordering through them, just tell them you have the adjustable dampers for the coupe that needs new inserts and they should be able to track down the bits.

Be warned though, they were still £150 each ! That's why I said stuff it and replaced the lot for a better set, they cost more but I'm happy.

ok so whats your advice here sell my fks and buy what?

I'm not advising selling your FK's, that's your choice. I found them unsafe for fast bumpy roads but others get on ok with them.

There are hundreds of suspension threads on here, all the good setups are mentioned in every thread, take your pick depending on your budget.

The FK's are pretty good on track because the surface is so smooth (in general).

I totally agree about them being absymal on road though

i have read a lot of the threads and am aware of the many discussions
i will just ask what is the best set up say for under £700
for track
i am happy to have bouncy road if they will really deliver on the track ..if they are only mediocre i will get what is better


nigel have you driven with fks and you think the osrav eibachs are better on track?

This is an old post...
....but I would suggest most of the info is still relevant.

I paid a good bit of money for my coilovers but worth it as far as I'm concerned. Compared to previous setup the car feels much better and can can get a good bit more drive out of corners because they dont bounce.

which ones you got?

ive read it but am still none the wiser as to which is the best on track osravs eibachs or billies eibachs or whatever mods i can make to my fks

That is a very old post Hyperlink and probably out dated now as there are many more options out there.

Matt has the same as me with a Leda setup but it's around £1200 - £1500 however it's good !

Osrav would be my recommendation due to them being adjustable, work well with standard or Eibach springs and good value for money, also a time proven suspension kit. I was the first UK coupe to run them, Nigel bought them from me and they lasted him many years or road and track use.

looks to me like its all down to money.

Osravs and billies are the top of the range for separate springs and dampers.

coilovers on the other hand seem to be a much more expensive proposition, to get the same quality of ride/handling you still need to go for top of the range i.e leda

Or have I read all these threads wrong?

i dont seem to be able to find a seller for osravs

There are a few good quality coilovers and some cheaper not so good ones, KW, Gaz and Leda are up there in the more expensive but good end of the scale.

Do a search for osrav on here, the UK dealer has been mentioned many times, it's a lancia tuning company, something like Sagato Lancia ?

zagato

If I would do it again I would not bother with coilovers, I think the osravs and eibach is probably the best all round handling package.
In the case of traction you want the front as soft as possible and the rear stiffer to stop weight transfer.
Standard springs are probably the best for traction but then you have the issue of roll.
Camber is good for handling,but to much camber will actually give you less traction as the contact patch is less.
First port of call has got to be tyres, stickier the better.
Then i would look at roll bars for the rear,the stiffer you make the rear the less grip it has, which means the grip transfers to the front.
But if you over do it your have lots of lift of oversteer and you might find yourself in a bush!

i dont mind shooting into a bush here and there

I agree Jonone, standard springs, osrav dampers and eibach roll bars would make a superb fast road setup. Just a shame the standard ride height looks like an MPV.

I am used to the look of the std ride height now, In the back of my mind i no its purposeful and it means you can run a lower brace without to much hassle,
When I ran eibachs and a lower brace speed bumps etc just did my head in.
I think the above set up with upper and lower braces and camber bolts is what i would do if i was starting again.

I would also look into tyres and tyre pressures.

I now have my brand new Osravs fitted and I now remember why I liked them so much

Superb damping control and a very wide range of adjustment

They will go from too-soft to too-hard, so you WILL be able to find the ideal setup.

where did you get yours nigel and how much did you pay? if you don't mind my asking

i have just found out why my fks are so bad they are 2 spring sizes wrong!

i have a set in jamies car which apparently were not bouncy but firm they had the 110 springs and werre his road and track set up and were fine

on the le theres coilovers front and eibach lowering springs rear with standard shock i was given a 100nm (not yet fitted)set of springs for the front which are the one up from the ones in it so no wonder the front is so bouncy its way off on spring rate!

It bounces because it's under damped not because it's under sprung. Fitting a stiffer spring is just reducing movement completely so it won't bounce, like I said earlier, it's a bodge from FK.

ok i accept that.. but the ones set up properly with correct springs and bravo top mounts feel great but i have not had chance to drive it fast as only earlier been swapped over will try tomorrow and see what the difference is

KTM, if you got the FK's from Spee then Jimbo should know all about them as they were originally off his car.

the fks were on the le i bought from spee just fronts rear has eibach springs standard dampers but one is shot.. they bounced quite a bit but he gave me stronger springs to go in them which were 100s or so he said..but i have not yet fitted

the other car i have which is jamies old one with fk silverlines on have the 110 springs and correct top mounts and are a full set of 4 these seem to be firm but great cant say too much as havent yet tried them at speed or with all 4 on a car but i will as this is how they were meant to be and i have been making issue of bounce when i have not had them set up right and one is moving nerly an inch back and forth to the point where i can feel it when letting the clutch out ..so really its no way to test suspension

I'm suprised the FKs are considered underdamped. I find their worst performance is on a fast straight road such as a dual carrage way, and you hit a bump. The sustension justs seems to just go down and back to its original position once giving the driver/passeners a jolt. I would have thought this was over damped

i cant really comment yet as upto now mine have wrong springs and one (front right) is broken so all i have said so far is realy not a fair reflection ..i am taking the car out again with the ones from the car i have with correct springs (which i bought as a none runner )

i know a lot of people have them and have no complaints that i am aware of ...jimbo feels they are underdamped and i see exactly what he means but i want to try them properly set up anyway thn i will know

What are the spring rates that th FKs are supplied with. Mine have two different springs at the front, I assume this is to give a progressive rate

They came with 80Nmm springs from FK, the 100's were sent out after complaints of them being dangerous.

Ecrab, if it was over damped, the 80Nmm springs would feel very hard with little movement, they didn't, they bounced and almost became a resonant bouncing where the front was pogoing down the road, that's under damped as the spring isn't being controlled.

The 100Nmm spring was sent out, this has a few effects, it changes the frequency of the bouncing, it totally over powers the damper, it reduces the comfort as you have little movement in the suspension. Can you push down on the slam panel and get any movement in the suspension ?

The Bravo top mount does add to the comfort of the FK's, I pinched the idea from KW as they use them and adaped the Bravo parts to fit with the FK's.
I just feel the FK's are a bit of a bodge. They aren't adjustable for damping, you can only adjust the ride height and how many time do you honestly do that, once or twice at the most.
So what's the point in them ? For the money you can get a good damper that isn't a compromise.

If you've go them already then fit the Bravo top mount and they ride ok with the 100Nmm springs, just too bouncy for me on uneven roads, they make you slower than a standard setup.

the bravo top mounts make a massive differene they feel much better than standard thats for sure ..the harder springs are not too bad after having the wrong ones in
it certainly keeps the car flat cornering rather than bouncing.. its firm though but i would say they would be good on a track

The worry is though KTM, the Bravo mounts are doing the work the damper and spring should be doing, it's a big block of rubber so will have quite a bit of give (flex) in it. The rock hard spring just means that rubber in the top mount is taking all the impacts, where the spring should be moving to take the impact, it's very rigid so the movement is transfered elsewhere.
The Bravo mounts are nice and really smooth out the crashing feeling but I think they should be used in conjunction with a well matched damper and spring.

FK's are well made, I had the silverlines that still looked like new after a few years (admittedly 1 year spend on my garage shelf) it's just a shame they didn't use a good quality insert in the damper, I whipped them out to look at them and they are very puny looking things when you compare them to the likes of the Koni insert for a standard damper.

From my calculations I have the softer(80Nmm) of the 2. I have tried pushing on the slam panel and there's negligable movement. Perhaps FK have revised their dampers as I certainly wouldn't descibe mine as bouncy.

have you done 140 on an undulating road? its only when giving it some...i have a set of the correct springs i can sell you should you want them

jimbo i understand totally mate and what can i say except fair enough.. but if you are buying a set second hand for £300 or the like with the bravo mounts its not a bad ride and definately far better than standard for fast cornering and track daying..so at that money i would buy them over standard everytime...the fact they could be better is in no doubt and if i was spending the £600+ these cost new i would buy something else