jtm - 16vt project 375-400hp - discussion thread

Comments / Discussions.

What do you think your 0-60/0-100 times be at 375bhp mate? Would love to know for sure at a guess would be better than not knowing at all.

Intresting project, i'v had a quick read put i'm going to read it in detail later or tomorrow.

This section must be my favourite of the whole forum list, really intersting.

0-60 maybe not that good, because of wheel spin.
hopefully something around 5 sec.
0-120mph maybe around 15sec.
60-120mph 10sec or under that is my goal.

I hope my weight saving gives me some potential to reach those goals.

we will see.

with 375-400 bhp you will piss under 10 secs 60-120
since fitting my new exhaust system, (I believe i now have around 320ish bhp) i timed 60-100 in 5.7 secs!! i'd imagine 120 would have come round in less than 8!!

i agree 0-60 is a problem!! i'm prob around 5 secs now i'd say, keeping wheel spin to a minimum!
I'm not the best a launching tho

to reach those goals don't think you'll need any weight saving to be honest!!
I'm prob 50kg over standard with all the amps and speakers i'm running in my car, and i pretty confident i could achieve all the above goals NOW!!

its amazing to think that only about 1.5 secs is slashed from the 0-60 comparing mine to standard 16vt.... yet a massive 6 seconds off the 60-100 time!!

Nick

Nick

I had 325hp / 1400kg alfa 155q4..
that was good for 6.3 sec 60-100mph
but 12 sec for 60-124mph

I have been making some new intecooler pipes to the mitsu turbo.
from turbo to intercooler, its gonna be the standard coupes silicone outlet pipe, then 2.5" 70 degree aluminium pipe ( 45cm long ) to 90 degree silicone pipe.

from intercooler to TB :
90 degree aluminium pipe (other leg is longer )
to the original metalpipe from fiat, and 45 degree silicone pipe to TB .

so total: only 3 pieces of 90degree elbows. and one 45 degree and 70 degree...should be good with the spooling also.

maybe, if everything goes right...

I can turn the key this weekend

after I get the car away from garage ;
-chip ( special version )
-making almost the hole exhaust
-cam job

Are you getting a live map or are you using one of the known chips?

I have Dinks normal chip and chip with extra fuel.
with standard cams, should be ok, but will test with
other cams too.( wideband test )
then I can go and make the chances with livemapping
( costs me 100e only )

its alive ...

okay..

I have now worked the other side of my car ( painted also )
and its time for exhaust ...

will give some photos later..

exhaust is done..

I only wait for yokohamas, and some wobblybolts..
then I can go and have my first drive this summer

should happen this week

what is the first thing, that will blow ?

first thing was :
after 3km driving there was a big hole on my boostpipe..
it was the hmm how I said it right...
engine running solenoid/ventil or something, that is next to the engine and battery..
it flyes away... have to make there some better system next.

now have been driving around 200km, and everything is ok..

boost is only 0.8bar, but goes prettty well..
100-140kmh is around 4 sec, looked at speedmeter..
fuelling : 11.9 l / 100km first test

Just been looking through your pics, the car looks amazing. I love the dash, how did you achieve the tan/beige lower section on the dash, looks great?

That turbo's a big one! Excuse my ignorance, but what is the big lump of kit above your manifold?

It's looking really good, keep the pictures coming.

Gareth

Ah, just looked again and the pic with the lump over the manifold is an Alfa engine!

Still, what is it!

Gareth

there is 50mm external wastegate over the manifold..



new car is with mitsu evo turbocharger, and with screamer pipe

just added new picture of my car..

I have had a little problem with my car..
I´m have been waiting one oilhose for 3weeks..
(silicone outside, good for oil use, and heat+ 90degree )
coming from England, ebay..
information said; over 10 available, delivery to Finland 4-6 days..
NOT...

I asked after 9 days, where the hell is my hose.. answer was :
in special orders, it takes around 4 weeks..
what hell, this was not special, if there is over 10 still available, and delivery is max 6 days..
well.. still I have to wait, because it takes same time if
I know start to order here in Finland..
..
hopefully, next week I can use my coupe again.

back for my turbo..

I have to say.. that mitsubishi turbo is the best, what I have ever used..
with G-tech RR on dynorun mode, it tells me, that best torque is with that 0.8bar 2800rpm -->
2000rpm is normal torque, then 2500rpm is already 100nm more!
I believe, that with this turbo, and 1.4bar boost, it should be very fast on track.. and very good everyday use..
if using standard cams, it should give you around 330-350hp, debend, have you done headwork.
then with other cams, you can have over 400hp, with still very good low down power/torque

I have done some measuring with G-tech pro RR and
I have about 275ps / 370nm 1.1bar with cat still there.
original cat...

and problem is, that boost starts to rise, so have to stop measuring around 5500rpm ..

so far, feels good.
just have to take a look at the wastegate, if its not opening enough ..

just to let everyone know, G-tech is pretty good measuring horses, when you do it right..

my ex alfa was 5hp difference, between RR and G-tech.

Hi jtm,

Have you been to RR?

hello.

not yet, there have been no space for my car on the carage
( have to make that cat replace pipe first.. )
after that the car is going to RR ..

I want there soon also..

added one video link on the project section.

80-120kmh 4th gear 0.8 - 0.9bar boost

spare cylinder head at home..

also NA cams, and turbo cams for spare..

20v model center console coming..

so winter project is : NA cams and stage 1 cylinder head.. should give me some more good power..

Sorry to hear you have a wrecked a head. Did you turn the engine over by hand first before trying to run it?

I bet none of the people who advised you about cams and pulleys have actually ever had those setups on their own cars! A painfully important lesson there; when reading advice on a forum, if it's not from first-hand experience it ain't worth squat!

BTW I use a Tipo 16V inlet cam and pulley no problem, so this will definitely work. Anyway, the 'proper' way to do it is with vernier pulleys and time it up on the dyno.

yes, glad I have the spear head at home..

I´m going use next time standard cams, but headwork done, larger injectors and goals for 340-350hp.

after that I save some money for C&B cams .
so no more problems ..

I use NA cams, turbo pulleys and standard turbo timing, like have been said, and done actually..
at least here in Finland..
but ;
I didnt know the history of my car, so it could be, that someone had already done headwork, etc, dont know the pistons what are inside, so
its my fault, because I didnt try to turn the engine, before I start ..

Ouch! Oh well, at least you know to next time!

yep, dont make that same mistake anymore..

it seems that only the intake valves have got some damage.

so the 228 / 8.6mm turbo intake cam on exhaust side is ok..

have to put some pictures after I got it away from the enginebay.

hopefully tomorrow I will get the head to the doctor ( the spear head )

Hmm

could someone tell me the number of the intake and exhaust pulleys, for Turbo engine ?

just to make sure..

is the 7691885 fiat coupe turbo intake pulley

Your engine is M2

can't wait to see your dyno results, interestedin this turbo your using..... Is it roller bearing, i'm presuming so given the speed of spool?
think you will see 340ish bhp... With very quick spool, so really fast ROAD car!
think the only thing holding you back for more peak power is the small exhaust housing on the turbo... I also think you'l have to push the turbo a little harder than 1.2 bar to get to 340-350 mark!

when are you on dyno..... Tomorrow?

nick

the exhaust housing is 10.5 and roller yes..
its good for my goals..

only problem seems to be the wastegate hole, that is too small.. over 5000rpm it starts to raise the boost ( and over 6000rpm there is too much.. )

so my RR numbers are low ..
and I only get at the moment 1bar boost for good fuelling, with 280+ chip. ( 3000-5000rpm )

I will put the fuel pressure a little up, so maybe I could use the boost, that should be good with the chip ( 1.2bar )
and after that, I´m hoping to see 300hp / +400nm around 5000 rpm.

ps: I get 1bar / 3rd gear 2700rpm !

oh and yes, the dyno is tomorrow..
that 340hp / 1.2bar was my hope with the NA cams..

I have standards back at the mo...

so only around 300 / 5000rpm / 1.2bar ..

G-tech RR gave me 284hp / 390nm with 1.0 - 1.2bar
( starts to go up like I told )
tomorrow we see some Diesel like power..

good luck then matey.....
post your results asap!
hope you get the figures you were looking for.... Although i think you torque goal is a little low?
think you should get 300 bhp and 300 ft lb of torque!

nick

that 390nm was the G-tech results, with 1.0bar boost..

if I can use 1.2bar, then around 410-420nm

With 1.2bar boost ...


313hp / 5290rpm ( then too lean )
423,6nm / 4112rpm

but the real torque ... is down
2000rpm = 210nm
2500rpm = 265nm
2900rpm = 340nm
3300rpm = 400nm
then +400 and around the same torque to 5400rpm ...
Have to make that wastegate better, or get a external one...

or get some good 3bar map chip ..
and all the way with 1.7bar

nice one... Well done!
that's what i'm planning... 3 bar map sensor and 3 different boost settings.... But i'm going get up and running first with around 1.45 bar Flea map..... Hoping to see 350+ bhp with about same ft lb of torque!
should be ready and dyno'd in around 3 weeks.... Fingers crossed!

well done again.... I bet it feels quick on the road!??

nick

It feels very good.. the down torque is amazing..

almost as stock like spooling, with just better power ..

and that was with low boost setup.. and only that 5290rpms ...

Nice work with the water spray. Proves it's not just a gimmick as I thought!

thanks...

I still have one injector left, I will put that near to the intakefilter.. so its rainy day everyday

and maybe I´ll get my new chip next week, so 1.5bar+waterspray+ dyno

nice!

Where have you installed the water spray?
I would like to see some photos and more info about it. Please

its "waterspray" .. not a real one, you know

because its just the back end hose ( yes, the one, that goes for the viper there ) and some volvo injectors ( just standard for that job )
so nobody really needs the back viper, right ?
I just take that hose, and put that near to the intercooler hot side ( biggest improvement ) .
then I make some holes to the bumber, and put the volvo injectors there. and voila ... you have intercooler waterspray done. And I put there also the system, so it wont leak, because the injectors are the lowest. That price was 1.5e .

you can easilly use it just like back viper, in my case just the right hand stick .

of course nobody remember to use that everytime, so I have found a solution.

10psi pressure switch; so when boost goes 10psi or more, it will connect it to spray ..

so only need is then to check there is always water.. so you can have more power.

I havent done this yet, but soon. ( dont have the 10psi switch yet )

I´m still waiting for my new chip, so havent gone for new RR, but soon.. hopefully in next 2 weeks.

but like tested with G-tech, this mod should easily give +10hp/+20nm and with like 10e .. so

oh, here is the link for the switch :

http://www.coolisbetter.nl/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=60

Okay!

And it is safer than Aquamist because if you run out of water you will not damage the engine.

Yes, thats right..

its not a big difference, when you accelerate your car, but in my case it was 80 -120 kmh couple tens away ..

and more boost = better results, thats my opinion.
hmm maybe I put the 1.2bar back and go test this today...

oh, my car is just summer car.Winter there is no need for this

but it would be interesting in winter (as long as the water does not freeze!)

yes, but I think that the results go down, when its colder.

I did test, with 1.2bar

results were not that good, so first I think, that the weather was the reason.. ( it was 5 degree colder )
but then the real reason was found ...

anyway first the results :

max hp : + 8 max nm : + 14
min hp : + 3 min nm : + 7

and the reason :
the first injector was off on its place, so it wasnt spraying to the cooler ..
have to make a new test later ...

One more question about the "intercooler waterspray". How much water do you need to spray (or in other words how many turns do you need to do on the stalk) before you see any improvement in hp?
I'm assuming that you don't use the 10psi pressure switch.

Well need for the water;

I spray all the time, when I did that RR run, so there goes water like 10 seconds or something ..
just like, when you wash your windshield for 10 seconds.. that much water.

and with that "boost control" there goes just a little less, because I started like 2000rpm, and there is around 0.4bar then, not 0.6bar
so normal driving = nothing
just when accelerating, it is on.. thats my plan.

oh, just for one more, what I notice....

the water temperature ( car cooling water )
it goes down by 3 - 4 degrees, when using this waterspray .. so it reduces that too... on my case.
there is about 10cm between the fmic and radiator, but still that much difference, because air is colder when going through the intercooler, and of course there is still some water going to the radiator also..

What fuel pump and fpr do you use?

fuel pump is walbro and fpr is megan racing type

( some chinese copy )

I have done some modifications to my wastegate.

its good for 5800rpm already ( before was 5300 )

and G-tech told me, that 356,5hp .

I will continue adjusting tomorrow, and my RR day is

01.10

So you solved the fuel pressure issue?

yes, everything is ok, but the boost creep is still there..

I have been able to move that from 5300 --> 5800rpm, and still work with that.

hopefully can get over 6000rpm

Yes, it will go over 6000rpm ...

100 - 140kmh 3 gear goes 2,70 sec

G-tech show me ;

375,2hp

last time I didnt use water cooling, this time I used. 5000rpm = + 10hp already

so hopefully I´ll get some good numbers 01.10 ..
fingers .. you know .

What WG adjustment are you doing?

on the evo 9 turbo, you can adjust the lenght of the pipe, that opens the gate.

that was too tight, by the factory..

it didnt open 100% so thats why the biggest boost creep. its working quite good at the moment .

from what G-tech have told me in couple days, I have mooved from 335hp -- > 375hp with just a couple rounds from 13mm nut

Nice! So when you on actual dyno bud?
What is max boost you running... 1.4 bar I'm guessin?
My 3 bar map sensor came today.... Just need to get car running properly now!! Do you plan on running boost over 1.5 in future, will your turbo still be efficient above that?

Nick

boost is around 1.45bar
and this is with standard cams, and just a little headwork.
RR day is 01.10
I really need a E-boost 2 or something good boost control next. I´m getting some wheelspin
1-2 gear have to modify some lower numbers.
maybe around 1.2bar, because with 420nm it wasnt problem, but it is today..
hopefully I run on the future around 1.7bar boost, the turbo is capable of that.
I just needs to talk Dink over for doing the program to me

In the list you wrote that you saved 25 kg of the bonnet.
Have you made a new one in fiberglass?

yes, its from fiberglass..

total costs for material was around 150e .

I dont have it yet on my car, but on my backyard, yes

I will posts some pictures..

my car is not ready at all, so its not that pretty..

on the first page on my project topic, there is this
photobucket link, theres some pictures

Ok..

its soon time to go..

and afternoon...

I tell my this summer numbers

good luck..... I'm guessing 368 bhp & 460nm torque!

nick

clutch wont hold anymore

maybe have to do something next winter.. yes its standard at least 5-year old one

power : 357,5hp / 5700rpm 1.45bar
torque : 455,7nm


I would say something like 10 - 15hp still to come, the boost creep is after that, so power goes down.


over 400nm between 3050rpm -6000rpm

I´m after 17,5hp .. so I can get my original goal..

Excellent result, got a graph Jarkko?

on the table next to me .. yes..


I will take a picture of that.
hopefully today...

is this the TD05Hr or TD05HRA (titanium) and is it the 9.8t hotside of the 10.5T?

This is TD05hr - 16g 6 10.5t

with normal inconel turbine wheel, and 10.5 housing.
single flapper design. ( evo 4-8 was double )

I have that titanium wheel / axel at home too..

http://s224.photobucket.com/albums/dd72/jq4tm/?action=view&current=039.jpg

So 293 hp at the wheel?

yes, thats about it.

there is a little play with the wastegate and power, so the top of the range is going to chance a little.. but only after the winter.. I have to take the turbo off.

maybe around 10- 15hp ..
and the torque is going to peak, not like this run, where the wastegate is a little open at beginning, so there is no peak.
so around 20nm for the peak .

the watercooling was used, and that was good only for 2hp, but ; the weather was not good for that test..

there were only around 7 degrees warm, so my Fmic could handle that no probably.
that gives you idea tough..
14 degrees weather 4hp
and +25 degrees 8hp maybe ?

Do you have a graph with power and torque at the wheels?
I would like to compare your result with mine.

Or is it okay to use the transmission losses and reduce the RR result with it?

on the graph ( the link for the RR paper ) there is that wheel numbers..

blue is the colour..

I missed that one

I know that this is my first post , but I need to ask are you using the stock internals ( stock pistons,head bolts,head gasket ) ?
and how many KM have you done on this setup ?

hello..

yes standard internals, stock bolts etc.. only better headgasket.

this was the first summer with this setup.
but, I have had 325hp alfa with standard headgasket also, and that was fine.. I owned that for 3 years.
its all about how to use the car.

Nice work!

Can't believe this is all on standard engine internals. How long do you think your pistons and rods will last?

I suppose if you can keep everything cool and avoid detonation then you should be ok.

You could go for Lexan/ploycarbonate windows and save some weight there.

I saw that you will update with new rims, seats etc.
Is it racing seats?
Magnesium alloys?

Please tell me more what you are planning to do

racing seats yes, very lightweight, I will add some photos, when I get them here.

alloys : planning to get oz alleggerita 17"
weight is only 6,3kg / wheel .
standard was 9,3 and the current what I have is also 9,3kg .

interior is still almost standard, and I´m keeping all the noise materials there and backseat for my boy, so he can come along too .
pics will follow later..

for alexblp :

hopefully they will last long ..

I am not going to go everyday on the track, and my summer km are going to be around 2000 - 2500km .
and not 100% gas pedal down .. you know its all about how you use it. this is not a rally car.

Wow! superlow weight! And I thought Team Dynamics Pro Race 1.2 was low
Can you get OZ in 4x98?

damn you begbie

these are 4 x 100 oz send they own bolts for that ( was it wobble for english ? )

Hi jtm,

What have you done with Mitsu evo 9 turbo?

Hello

I have chanced the turbine housing from 10.5 ( evo 9 ) to 11.5 model, and with that housing, I get bigger wastegate and wastegate holes. its made in taiwan I believe, and I just found that, when searching a second housing, for me to
modify. I believe, that this housing wont need any mods

Tomorrow is a judgement day ...

a Start up .

please let everything be ok

Congrats on the startup

Can we get some more recent pics of the turbo setup you are using?

hello.

its still the same evo 9 turbo, just with bigger turbine side housing, and wastegate. anyway, here is one:

http://s224.photobucket.com/albums/dd72/jq4tm/?action=view&current=115turbinehousing.jpg

I will let you know how the VIS manifold works, when I get all the rest done. there is still some little things to do.

but car is on the road already !

What I think Saint is trying to say is that you should add an obscene amount of photos. Go nuts with the camera

Clutch is slipping and you are loosing brake fluid I'd say you clutch slave cylinder is leaking over the bell housing.

No brake fluid cant get in the engine, unless is went through the servo vacuum pipe very very unlikely. Clean your idle valve with decarboniser.

I was thinking that too, but it has stopped ..
it wont leak at the mo..

but slipping is not. well, glad I have new clutch waiting

already. will check that cylinder too, if it needs replacing.

Looks quite quick, will have do to a video of mine for comparison. Exhaust sound weird though, what is it?

weard ?

yes I know, its because of my phone, and screamer pipe

20kg of weight saving is very much. Good work. Have you tested it before and after? Big difference?

Finland won this year but you wait and see. Next year we will win.

You can feel it when you drive. thats for sure.

Big difference, the responding is much better.
and a lot lighter for handling.

havent tested on RR yet, I´m still trying to get some
time to chance the clutch.

Freddan ; you won the football game, thats enough for you

Where did you get your manifold from, or is it home made? I'm Interested in going the sane route as you for my project

DINK is alive he has updated his website and he was busy....so he said......

Thanks!

I saw the video where you tested 3rd and 4th gear. What holder do you use for the AEM Uego? Or do you use tape?

double sided tape is used.