Bravo 20vt Project Discussion Thread

Comments on my thread

Nice work. A really interesting project

are you intending to run Coupe alloys or find something else?

reason i ask is the coupe rear arms are slightly wider and on mine i have arch issues with my Stilo alloys on the back, just keep it in mind incase you find you have rubbing issues after.

Ry

looks like good progress mate, when you reckon you will have it done?

cheers guys,

4076 - i have plans to go to santa pod in april next year so thats my target but obviously the engine will need to be run in that time aswell, so fingers crossed....

bulldog - i wasnt aware there was any differnce in the rear arms. i was planning on keeping the bravo rear subframe and adding the coupe brakes.

are the subframe mountings are the same thougth, and the ARB mounting? just the arm are wider?

Ninja

from what i have gathered its only the swingarms that are different, just a bit wider.

i only changed mine while i was trying to get the ABS working which i gave up on in the end.

if you plan on keeping the bravo swing arms you wont have any issues with the arches, but ABS may not work, i think it depends on what system you have fitted, mine had a kelsey-hayes system and it was not compatible with the front sensors, i replaced it all for a Bosch system and couldnt get that to interface with the car loom correctly so gave up.

probably wont matter as your are only using yours for track

Ry

Watch the brake reservoir as well.as the turbo hits on the inlet on the hlx conversions.
If i were you i would swap to the coupe rear subframe as then youll have the rear discs.
Although i know for a fact that the bravos standard brakes are better than when i used the brembos.

i made sure i kept the brake reservoir off the coupe

i will be fitting a rear disc conversion onto the bravo subframe as the HLX has got drums, although the extra track would possibly of been nice.

i'll have to check the ABS when the loom goes in, ive got the unit off the coupe, but i hope i dont have to swap it

Ninja

The Abs is different.You will struggle there.
The hgt runs the same system as the coupe,however the hlx doesnt.The sensors and the looms are different.

The coupe subframe bolts straight on to the bravo,the hgt is the same as coupe but the hlx isnt.So you ll need to swap them.
Also the Hgt and coupe run the compensator on the Frame and im not sure if the hlx does or if it runs the same setup as the punto where it uses 2 compensators?
Youl find out i guess.

are the HGT rear arms different to any other bravo? cause there is no difference in the rear body/arches between bravo models? (front arches are wider but the rears arent and wouldnt that cause issues, like bulldog says?)

i know the hgt rear brakes can be (retro) fitted to the lower model bravos so i'm happy with that if there the same calipers as the coupe, although i will have to check the compensator (plus i left the rear subframe on the coupe when i scrapped it, doh)

as for the abs, the bravo sensors fit the coupe brakes, so the abs is still working atm. when i swap the loom and ecu it may present a problem, i'll just have to cross that bridge when i come to it.

Ninja

I couldnt tell you.Im not sure if the rear arms between the models are different as i know the front ones are shorter.
May be worth posting on Boo.

had i quick check for available parts from shop4parts

they only list 2 rear trailing arm for the fiat bravo, ABS and non ABS. (not model specific, like the fronts)
and they dont list any for the coupe!?

they also list the same compensator valve for the coupe as the bravo.

see im still hopeful

Ninja

The difference in track on the rear arms is the brakes. i.e. the disk brake set up is wider, not by much though.

The front wishbones come in two flavours. The shorter one that was fitted to all but the HGT Bravo and the longer one that was fitted to the HGT bravo and the 16v and 20 v coupes(inc turbo's). If you keep your streering rack you will need to use the longer track rod ends from a HGT Bravo.

I'm converting a 1.4 to 20v power at the moment. The easiest thing to do is to remove pretty much everything and replace it with either HGT stuff or coupe parts. That way there's no horrible splicing of looms.

very interested in this thread guys and any other information you can share with me

i have been looking for a new project for some time having finished a full resto on my alfasud last year.
i love turbo-charged cars and have long had the idea of fitting the 20V turbo engine etc into an alfa 145.

this thread will be a very similar thing i guess as the 145 is pretty much identical underneath/structurally to the bravo

i figured out that the subframe should be swappable from the coupe to the 145 so that should take care of the engine/gearbox mounting points? also i thought the suspension & brakes would swap over, keep everything in one lump??

the only thing that slightly worries me is the wiring, but is it just a case of the whole loom together with ecu's can be taken from the coupe and fitted in the 145??

sounds easy

any advice would be much appreciated

thanks for the interest,

although my project has taken a bit of a back burner for a while, as i'm waiting for parts, and been a bit busy, i will also be out the country for a while.

there are a couple of 20vt/16vt bravos floating round, and 20vt tipo and a 20vt 147.

as far as im i'm aware the coupe,145,bravo and tipo all share the same chassis (theres a recent thread somewhere) but the best way to find out if something fits is to get the tool kit out

If you have any questions just ask, this is a very helpful forum, i should know

Ninja

thanks
i have done a bit more digging and searching and it seems like the 145/bravo are very similar (identical?) in dimensions under the bonnet with the inner wing/chassis section width and also the suspnesion mounting points.
i am guessing it will be a case of using the whole front end of a coupe, engine/gearbox/drive-shafts/hubs/struts/cross-member etc together with the wiring loom & ecu.
so what i will be searching for is either a crash damaged coupe or one that has other issues (darn't mention the "R" word, being a lifelong italian car nut i know how that word stings!) as i don't want to take a coupe off the road that someone else could still enjoy.

this autumn/winter should see the start of the project, hopefully i can start a thraed on the build on here and gain from all you guys knowledge

you should need need the cross member (i havnt on the bravo!?)

you will also need ;
steering rack,
ABS pump + sensors,
20vt wheels (to clear the calipers),
Gear linkages (if not already cable, the whole assembly is a straight swap for the bravo),
wishbones (unless the 145 matches the coupe or HGT items),
Coupe ARB

its worth taking the rear disc conversion too inc;
handbrake cable,
calipers,
mounts etc (no need for arms or hubs on the bravo, not sure bout 145)
very important little spacer!!

ive taken ignition barrel and keys too, to match ECU

hope that helps

Ninja

-

145 uses the same wishbones as the tipo, bravo, so a single lower wishbone

thanks for the advice

will i need the coupe steering rack? thought the 145 one would be ok?
the abs is something else to think about, can i just do away with it all??

ecu and immobilisor/key code system is another issue to get around, but reading on other guys efforts it can be bypassed??

at this stage i'm trying to gather as much info as i can, get my shopping list together. getting a whole coupe for a donor car is the only way to go so all the little bits&bobs that are needed can be gotten hold of, any spare parts/panels etc left over will be made available to forum members on here

thanks for the interest & replies so far, nice to be not shot down in flames to start off with

i plan on using the complete cross-member with the arms/hubs/drive-shafts etc from the coupe so i will know it all goes together. think i'm right in saying that the strut top mounting points on the inner wings are in the same places on the 145 & coupe? also the cross-member will use the same mounting points??

another quick question, do the 20V turbo cars have an lsd as standard?

you mean viscodrive... yeap...

is that the same as in the lancia dedra turbo 'box? the last one i had drove fantastic out of the bends, pulled hard with no wheel spin, a nice type of limited slip diff, didn't pull you all over the place

Yes the coupe has an LSD!

i am hoping to start my own thread to get my questions answered but can't start one yet (not enough posts??) so will have to ask on here, sorry for the hijack!!

anyway, i've been thinking about a few things.

my intention of using the 20VT engine is down to 2 reasons, firstly because it will be more of a challenge getting it into the alfa 145 (not too hard i hope) and secondly because i absolutely love the exhaust note of the 5pot engine

anyway, i've been thinking now about the 16VT engine, it does offer a few advantages over the 5pot, slightly more room to fit it and seems to be easier to tune when inevitably plenty of power isn't enough!

is there anything else for or against using either engine combo??

any advice appreciated again guys

145 hubs and rack ends are different to Fiat models. But you can use either.

this is excellent im slowly doing a conversion on my bravo 155 hgt, reading this and seeing pics is really good, as ive never done anythin like this ever, ive just threw myself straight in at the deep end .

i'm working on the rear disc conversion for my project and have come across a potenial issue!?

first off does any have a picture of the rear ABS sensor for the coupe?

with the conversion i can take the drum assembly off, install the caliper mounts and leave the ABS sensor in situe.
the bravo hub has horizontal ABS notches and a long(ish) protruding ABS sensor. the coupe hub has vertical ABS notchs (and will foul the bravo sensor)
i will re-use the bravo hub (because of the coupe hub fouling issue) but when i swap the loom, if the bravo ABS module is not compatible with the coupe ECU, then i will need to swap the ABS module, asensors, and hubs for coupe ones.

turns out the coupe sensors wont work on the bravo module (i tried the front ones)

or if i dont want ABS i could leave it......but i do

(this will probaly be easier to understand with pictures, but i dont have any at the moment)

Any comments

Ninja

You have four options on the front:

1) Use the bravo driveshafts but they won't fit a coupe gearbox so bravo box it can be but that WILL blow.

2) You can put the coupe driveshafts in the bravo hubs but the sensors won't line up. So you will have coupe gearbox and bravo hubs but NO ABS.

3) Use the coupe hubs, driveshafts and brakes/wheels. Because the driveshafts have a different sensor OD I’m not sure if the bravo ABS module will work that means you may have to fit the coupe ABS brain also.

4) Some crazy custom way making up homemade brackes etc..

I chose option 2. Who need ABS

I have no idea about the rear because I’ve never looked at them.

I want ABS (......enventually)

the fronts are coupe all out, arms, hubs, struts, shafts, calipers. the coupe ABS sensors are on the front, they physically fit the bravo module, but arent compatible

the rears are bravo arms (which are the same), hubs and sensors, coupe calipers, struts, springs, ARB.

i cant fit the rear coupe hubs with the bravo sensors, and i dont have any coupe rear sensors.

i supose i could fit the coupe hub without any sensors, until i get a compatible ABS module and rear sonsors

i need to find a (or which) coupe ABS module will be compatible with my donors ecu? anyone know how?

are all the ABS units interchangable? are all sensors interchangable?

anyone know?

Ninja

Your car has a factory-installed ABS? If your Bravo is MK1 (like mine) and has factory-installed ABS, he is Teves. Coupe is fitted Bosch ABS system! I hope I'm not mistaken, but Coupe and Bravo sensors had different ohmic resistance! If you want I can measure (Saturday) the resistance of the sensors on Bravo? In my case, ABS system works beautifully with sensors from Bravo( I kept the original Teves system). My car runs one year with Bravo hubs, and now with Coupe hubs fitted with my old original ABS sensors from Bravo. Rear'm not doing anything (my Bravo is HGT ) and I have no idea what the difference between Coupe and Bravo.

Cheers Kaci,

Yes, it has factory ABS, but mine is a MK1 1.8HLX, which i think is where the problem lies, the HGT and coupe use the same ABS setup? (calling JBT, Turbo J, can anyone confirm?)
were your hubs the same? cause mine are different!

(pic to follow)

unfortunately the coupe sensors are not compatible with the 1.8 bravo module, and the bravo sensors wont fit the coupe hubs.
so if i want ABS i think i need;
a coupe module,
coupe rear sensors and use the coupe rear hub (already have coupe front hub, shafts and ABS sensor)
and possibly the coupe ancillary wiring loom? (if the bravo one doesnt fit the coupe module)

Damn ABS!!!!!

Ninja

Bravo on TurboJ is a MK2 and his system might be like the Coupe (Bosch 5.3)! Our system (MK1) is Teves. Maybe ABS sensor of 1.8 are longer than my (HGT and Coupe). If the weather is not very cold will dismantle one of my sensors will measure the dimensions! Then you can compare them with the dimensions of your sensors. I do not like this system(ABS) and if I were you, would ever waste my time with it!

give me yours then

not sure i would like 300+bhp and no ABS (if just for safety) the car will mainly be used for track use when i'm done.

Ninja

Do you really know what ABS is for?

Mine is Mk2 HGT. I have no idea which ABS ECU I have all I know is the sensors don't line up.

line up in what way?

you can see in this picture the way the bravo sensor comes through the arm and is parallel with the ABS notches




and in this you can see the difference between the coupe hub (in the disc) and the bravo hub



Ninja

Mine don't line up because I'm using Bravo hubs and coupe driveshafts. Yours line up fine. Why bother? You don't want ABS for a track day car.

i dont need, but i want

ninja

It will slow you down and not in that sense. You need to fell the brakes bite and lock up in order to become a better driver ABS will get in the way. It's for road safety NOT track use.

that is a good arguement (damn you!)

i'd like to get it to work, but i think i'll drop it down the priority list though.

if i do get it to work, can i disable it freely? ie remove a fuse, for on track use.

Ninja

Yes i supose you could do that.

Hi Ninja. On Saturday and Sunday was very cold and raining and I could not dismount and measure one of my ABS sensors. I spoke with a friend who has a Bravo 1.8 GT and its sensor (front) looks quite different from mine. There was nothing to measure it, but is much thinner than mine! Can you orient the picture that your sensor like this(1.8GT) ?

cheers for that Kaci,

looking at that photo, the sensors i removed from my bravo (1.8hlx) are different.

how my bravo, your bravo and the coupe ones all compare i dont know.

Ninja

Hi Ninja. Sorry to be delayed with the promised information but ......
I was able to describe or photograph only their front ABS sensors. The rear can not be dismantled healthy (risking to destroy them-sorry). I hope I helped with something! Once again - sorry for the delay!

thanks for that kaci,

Rear sonsor from coupe

the coupe sensors are perpendicular to the notches on the coupe rear hub,

the bravo sensors are parallel to the notched on the bravo rear hub (pis as per above)

it looks like becuase the HGT shares the same front drive shafts and rear disc setup as the coupe they are compatible with the coupe parts, but the 1.8 front shafts are diferent and the rear is a hub setup, so its sensors wont phyiscally match the coupe abs notches on the hub/shaft


the sensors being interchangable with the abs module is still unknown to me becuase the front coupe sensors(currently fitted) do not line up with the 1.8 drive shaft, so until i change the drive shafts i wont know if the ABS error lights goes out??

If it does not, then i will try the 1.8 sonsors in the coupe hubs with coupe shafts (but i'm not too optimistic)

Ninja

any pics of the engine built yet ? i like this! im currently searching for a block to fit into my brava 1.6 elx

JBT is still working on the engine, he may have some pictures, not sure??

Otherwise, i'm expecting the bottom end back 2nd week in feb, I'll take some pictures as soon as......

Ninja

ahh cool! you see im looking to fit a 20vt into my brava.
Ive done engine conversions before luckily
I'm just a little skeptical on this one especially when it comes to ancillaries?
any idea how yours is going pan out for the power steering pump etc

Michael

power steering wise (the plan is..)

Coupe pump
bravo reservoir
Coupe steering rack/track rods (although the cores are the same apart from the bravo has a bracket for the gear selctor rods, so i may just cut that off as the coupe uses cable!)

No aircon, so no need to worry about that, and i've given up on the ABS for now as per above lol

everything else is a case of wiring.....

Ninja

Al parts with me now.
Will start this middle of next week.
So still on target for Feb

Gonna be busy boyo!!

Rods matched to size for caps.
Pistons fitted with new rings
Bores honed
New under piston jets,going to check crank and mains in depth next week.
Checking oil pump tomorrow.

Have you put a new cam sensor on? Looking good.

Great to see this coming along mate. Been along time coming.

It has.... if you consider it like the hare and the tortiose, well they both passed me along time ago lol

my new job does not allow me much time to mess during the week anymore, and i did not want to start stripping the car until i was happy with engine assembly.

it also been a massive learning curve along the way
in hindsight it would have been so much simpler if i had started with a pre-98 HGT, but then again i have uprated all the parts that would have been standard on the HGT anyway.

Ninja

Plug near the strut is for the cam variator.
Its loom travels through the bulkhead on the coupe and goes to the fuse box and is controlled by a relay and also the ecu.

Its not essential that its in place but it causes a bit of lag if its not so best to have it wired up.Not to mention the management light will be on.
The variator uses the engines oil pressure and opens a solenoid to activate the variator by oil displacement in rotation.

It wont stop the car from starting if its not plugged in so you can tackle it at a later date if needed.
I might have that piece of loom if you drop me a text tomorrow i will take a look.

The fan also is controlled by the ecu.


The 4 pin plug near the battery is for the code system.The other is the O2 sensor.

Bury your head in wiring diagrams for a few hours to figure out the routing fella.Thats what i had to do.

Hope this helps

Guess thats my weekend sorted then.....

cheers john

Ninja

You have to use coupe fan mate but they are a little tight.
Non ac fans work well.

Congratulations on your success, Rich.
Weekends have been pretty good for all Bravo 20VT.
Engine in my Bravo also starts successfully on Sunday after a year and a half
I'm glad for you

Awesome dude.Good to here its pretty much there..track days soon..

thank mate,

booked in with the almighty flea at the start of feb

looking at booking my first track day at the end of feb if everything goes well

Ninja

Fantastic build mate. always had a soft spot for the Bravo. love little hot hatches this should be epic

alright mate nice motor, i got a bravo 20vt in ink black with the abarth kit on. where did you get you strut brace from?

looks like someone had fun,car looks good on the track

sure did, and thanks.

its a bit far out the way for most, but i would certainly recommend a visit

Ninja

Hi,

I did exaclty the same conversion some years ago and i have solved the overheating at track days by turning up the (interior) heating to max after a couple of rounds.
By this the rad has a chance to get rid of some heat... as long as you leave the windows open a bit, it does not get too hot inside the car..


btw: where did you get your arches from and how mich wider are they than the hgt/marea wings??

Jochen

Yeah heaters help

the arches i got off ebay, similar to 206GTI arches. They probably add about 25mm each side over the HLX wings, so not far off the standard hgt wings.

Ninja

Are you widening the track Rich?

No mate, The standard HGT/Coupe track is wider than the standard HLX track, and the HGT wings are wider than the HLX ones.
This meant the tyres were very close to being wider than the arches and although it probably wasnt essential, i wanted the car road legal (ie tyres within arches).

Before


After


Ninja

Looking good there, super shiney!

thanks, ive had a good year out of it

Ninja

Shame to sell after all the effort mate. Why not just find storage for a while?

If you can find some in Dudley direction at a reasonable cost for two or three cars I will even share the costs.

it would be mate, storage not really an issue, apart from the occassional ear bashing, i could leave it down the garage for a while. I even made some mods to allow a cover over my trailor, incase it came storing it on that

I would fell shamed if it was just sat there doing nothing also though.

Ninja