Alfa 145/Coupe 20VT or 16VT discussion thread.

Hi guys.
A few of you have been very helpfull already with advice on my intension of fitting the Coupe running gear into an Alfa 145, so now I am starting a proper thread to gain even more knowledge from you!

I intend on buying a complete Coupe so I have everything to hand. I have read that most parts are straightforward to swap over with the Coupe and Alfa pretty similar under the bonnet, dimensionally and in the layout. Should be an easy swap as transplants go!

My choice is now to either go for the 16V turbo or the 20V turbo.

I have read the 16VT is easier to tune with the integrale gear and will maybe be easier to fit?
But I just love the exhaust note of the 20VT and doing things different appeals greatly to me, if I'm to go to the trouble of swapping over then I may as well do it as good as I can!

The things I know I will need are,
Engine/Gearbox
Drive-shafts/hubs/suspension/brakes etc
Wiring loom/ECU/keys/steering column
Exhaust front pipe & cat
Water radiator/oil rad & all pipework for both
Sub-frame

Anything else I've overlooked?

I have been looking for a Coupe that is either damaged or an MoT fail so it will a/ keep the costs down & b/ not waste a perfectly useable car.

Will also consider one with a broken cam-belt if the price reflected a non-runner as cahnging the cam-belt & taking the head off for a check over would be on my to-do list anyway.

All comments welcome guys

Just in case you haven't seen this thread and the 2 16vt projects here's a link.

yep, had a look over those 2 cars

i was kind of thinking about how easy it might be before i started to search, i imagined having to fabricate engine mounts and the like, but i was really surprised to learn that things can be swapped over pretty easily

knowing it has been done before with the 16VT gives me encouragement, but i really want to go the 20VT route

seen the bravo & marea have had the conversion done, and they are pretty much the same under the bonnet as the 145 so should be ok??

Very interested to see your progree Kev and me and a pal were considering this conversion for a while.

Things that put us off were;

1) Loads of wiring, the engine loom and ECU will be easy to swap other but i *think* you will have to re-wire pretty mch everything else in the car (i.e dash, windows, radio etc etc) Unless your using it as a track motor?

2) Apparently there are some issues with the brakes. You will need a different master cylinder in order to fit the engine in i *think*.

try dropping Johnnybravoturbo a PM, he knows all about this and advised me

would be maybe used on the track, but would be set for the road mainly so everything would need to work.
splicing the looms together was one of my concerns, but the guys that have put the 16VT in a 145 before managed it so at least it can be done

details like the brake master cylinder/servo being in the way is something i haven't considered, is that just on the 20VT? or is the 16VT in need of similar mods?
all questions & answers to sort through before i jump in, thanks for bringing it up

will pm johnny also, thanks for that

any views on which engine is best, 16VT or 20VT

a couple of 16VT's on ebay at the mo that seem to suit my needs, but would rather have the 20VT

but, if the 16VT gains you extra in other areas like less weight (are they much lighter ) and more easily tuneable then it may be worth considering,

but i do like the 5pot burble

I wouldn't say the 16vt is more tuneable, both routes are pretty tuneable and i'd say it will cost you a lot less money to get 300bhp out of a 20vt then it will a 16vt.

just i read/heard somewhere that the integrale stuff is compatible with the 16VT?

to be honest i don't think i would be satisfied with the 16VT, i had set my mind on doing the 5pot motor just to be that bit different and if i fitted the 4pot i would be alwasy thinking "what if"

20VT it is then

300 bhp is more than i want at this moment though, stock will suffice to start with

ok guys, i have a 145 now which has been prepped ready which for an alfa means welding up the floor to sill area the engine & 'box etc will be out this weekend so i'm ready for a coupe now

if anyone knows of a suitable one near the lincs area then i would be glad to know

an mot failed one would suit, or a damaged one.

could post some pics on the build thread but as it's only alfa stuff so far i will hold back, unless anyone wants to see them. looking forward now to getting a coupe to start the real work

http://alfa155.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29588

you should see this. as you know, 145 and 155 are the same car under the hood.

yep, seen that one, looks like it will be a cracker

itching to get on with the proper work now

will buying a car without the red master key be an issue?
heard all sorts of stories about how it can cause all sorts of problems, mainly not being able to start the engine

will just having a plain key cause me any issues?

heard that spare keys can be cloned, but thought that could only be done using the master key

I'm not sure about this... will you put on your car the CODE unit? it's a little bit tricky to do. If you don't do it, you'll have to unlock your ECU and it will start working without Imo at all...

i will do whatever is the easiest/best wya to do it. if that means using the code system from my donor coupe then so be it. i just want it to work when i get it done

the only issue i have is if buying a car that has say just the silver key, will that cause any issues with the transplant?? i will be suing the whole engine loom with the steering lock/switch/key plus the ecu so the keys etc will still think they are in a coupe rather than now in a 145. i was just wondering about any issues with not having the red key incase the ecu needs resetting once everything is swapped over. bearing in mind it will be a fair while with things unplugged

thanks in advance for any advice guys, i really do appreciate it

i now have a 20VT so will be getting on soon with things.
trouble is, now i've got a complete car i quite like it, i don't want to break it apart

still, will have a few parts for you guys

will start a thread on the breaking/for sale section soon

haha thats what happened to me when i got the 20vt for a tipo 20vt project!!!

going to be a really interesting build mate!!

well, some you win, some you lose i lost

got the whole car for a reasonably cheap price, well it would have been if the engine turned out to be a runner

bought it as a non-runner hoping it would be able to be resurected, cam-belt was still in place and moved with the crank shaft so that was a good sign.
no battery on it so couldn't turn it over to check, decided it was worth a gamble as it still had all the other parts i will be needing like the wiring loom/ecus/gearbox/brembos/alloys etc etc so even if the engine was dead a replacememnt could be found.
i like to be optimistic in these things what's the worst that can happen

well now i know what the worst can be, a holed (missing even ) piston on No.4. i can move the con-rod with my screwdriver down the spark plug hole


so even though i have all the parts i need the biggest part is probably no use to me

never mind, once the car is stripped i will take it apart to have a proper look, but i very much doubt there will be much to salvage, maybe the head if i'm very lucky

car now breaking for spares on the for sale section, less the parts i will need.

onwards and upwards

That's really bad luck Kev, sorry to hear it

well it was a gamble mate, worth the risk as i saw it.

just i didn't get the break this time

won't stop me though, just makes me more determined

Hopefully you'll be able to make most of the money back from breaking it for spares

there are still many parts you could use of the coupe even if the engine does not run (running gear, suspension, brakes, electrics, ancileries)

if i were you i would get them all swapped over ready for the block, then get something built to spec and drop that in, you dont need to buy another whole coupe!

Ninja

that's the plan mate, always was my intention to break it for spares as i only need the running gear and the engine electrical bits & bobs.
nothing has changed apart from i will be needing another engine can't see it being salvaged, the con-rod will most likely have been battering the bores without the piston holding it steady
don't know if the head can be saved yet, will see once it's out and taken apart.

so no, i won't indeed be needing another car as you say, just the important oily bit

posted a couple of pics on my build thread, but how do you post the photobucket pics as thumbnails, like the mod kindly changed them on my first post to??

interesting pics by the way, have a look and see if you can spot where my engine problems lay

Kevin, I just changed them on your new post - you need to grab the 'direct link' address from photobucket (looks like this: http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t31/nailed_barnacle/Quantum%20engine/P7030075.jpg and is just a pointer to the image, whereas the 'email and im' link is like this: http://s156.photobucket.com/albums/t31/n...nt=P7030075.jpg and includes some browser instructions too) - and then wrap it in [ imgpop] and [ /imgpop] tags.

hope this has worked

Yep.

i've now taken the complete engine wiring loom out complete with the ecu from just inside the car, pleased to find it didn't snake too far and is pretty much self contained, just a couple of questions though.

this 3pin plug, where/what does it go to







it sits by the drivers side suspension turret but i'm damned if i can trace it with my multi-meter. found the green one goes to the relays near the ecu but the orange & the grey one???

would be asking for too much for the same connector to be on the alfa loom although i haven't yet looked

also the code system. do i need to use it?
doesn't seem to be hard wired into the ecu/engine loom anywhere (unless it's in with those 3 wires i can't trace :?) and i know the alfa uses a similar system, well i think it does

would be a lot easier to leave the alfa key/switch etc in if possible in any (easy) way


your help would be appreciated guys

got most of the wiring sorted now, apart from one vital thing.
on the coupe there is a decent sized orange wire from the ignition switch to the engine loom, an igntion/ecu supply i guess?
on the 145 the ignition switch deosn't have this wire although the terminal is in place on the back of the switch, just nothing on it. i've checked and it supplies the feed needed, power when in ignition position and doesn't disappear when on "start" position (starter engaged) so should be able to do the job??

the alfa doesn't seem to have a decent type feed like this, maybe the ecu does things different?

this is really bugging me now, i really don't like wiring and i hate it when i can't get my head around things but surely if i can create the same scenario of wiring in the 145 that the coupe had then all wil be fine?

but what about the code system? will any supply need to go through that? it didn't look to have done on the coupe, although i haven't stripped the whole loom back to check, just done the continuity type testing.

i have swapped the coupes' code box into the alfa, the coupe wiring loom complete with it's ecu, so will it be ok to just create the powre supply to the orange wire?

any help would be apprecited guys, i need help on this bit

once this is solved i'm almost ready for the fresh engine to go in. everything else has been swapped over, even things i didn't know i would have to
little details like the brake servo pipe being different, and the accelerator cable, so really looking forward to getting on with some spanner work and put the wiring to bed

On the coupe, that orange wire supplies pretty much everything that needs power on ignition, apart from the starter circuits... lights spring to mind. If you look on the wiring diagrams there's loads fed from that orange wire, if you follow it around.

thanks for the reply mate, much appreciated

i've now wired up the 145 igntion switch the same way as the coupe. the extra terminal that isn't used normally on the 145 supplies exactly the same feed as the corresponding terminal on the coupes' switch, so it makes sense to just use that with some decent sized wire, the coupe's orange wire to be exact
once i got my head around it then it's simply a case of replicating things on the 145 that was on the coupe.
i've checked the wiring on the code box connections also, although they are different colours between the 2 cars the corresponding wires serve the same purpose, they end up at the same destination

fingers crossed it should be ok now

also found a couple of gauges i'd forgotten about, bought them a few years back to use in my alfasud but stuck with the original alfa ones so these never got used, like these ones

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tim-Oil-Pressure-G...=item2a09063583

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TIM-CAR-52MM-OIL-E...=item3a5d7b90b8

a turbo boost one will also be added, just trying to find one that looks the same but reads in psi, not bar



got a new cam-belt kit now, plus a pair of cam-locks from alternative autos so the engine will be almost ready to go back in soon.
got another week off work the week after next so plan on getting things in place by then

also bought a pair of steering rack boots and inner anti-roll bar bushes. the bushes don't look too bad but seems silly not to change them whilst they are so easy to get at, i hate knocking arb's

still trying to get hold of the correct inner cv boots though, the 108mm ones

bit of confusion here, need a help on this one.

i am going to fit aftermarket oil temperature & oil pressure gauges plus i want to keep the original low pressure warning light/switch.

the back of the block has these 2 units, i presume the left one is the pressure sender & the right one the low pressure sender?


the temperature sender i guess is this one in the sump?



but my problem is the replacement engine doesn't have the sender in the sump



do other versions have a temperature sender elsewhere? like in the pipework to the oil cooler??

or am i going to have to swap the sumps


that is if i'm interpreting the senders locations correctly

In later models Coupe (or if replaced the sump) no oil temperature gauge! In its place a voltmeter.

aha, i bet that's what has happened.

looks like a sump swap is on the cards then i hat changing sumps, such a messy job

will swap them over before it goes back in the car then, as long as they mount the same? guess they will go

Fantastic project Kev,

I always wanted to do this conversion to a 155,but the bravos were always cheaper at the time..
Plus johnny155turbo doesnt have the same ring to it ..

Look forward to seeing you at the coupe meets in this.
I was made to feel very welcome in the bravo.

If you need any help please give me a ring as i have alot of respect for anyone whos up for a challenge such as this project.

Keep up the good work.

cheers mate, really appreciate that

was very worried before i started the project as to what reception i would get, wrecking a coupe as i intended to do! but at least i don't feel too guilty about the one i eventually used, it was beyond reasonable use in the state it was anyway

i would love to come along to any meets if i'm allowed. have seen the drayton manor october 3rd meet, would i be allowed there do you think? should be on the road by then, fingers crossed

just need to get my coupe shifted from the front lawn now, mrs is getting a bit fed up with the garden decoration i gave her

here's a short vid of it, has settled down a bit more since this so the tappetts have quietened down

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI5jRaPI5KU&feature=related

haven't got the intake pipe connected up yet either as i found a load of piston pieces in there after the original engines' blow-up

will be fitting a front mounted intercooler soon

You always get a very warm welcome i have found.
And i would imagine that this will get the most interest initially.
Be nice to see you at one of the meets.

sounds good, look forward to getting along to a meet before the year is out then

aiming to get it done within the next few weeks

Great build!

That is a great project.

I have had three 145 Cloverleaf's myself, and one with 20VT power would be awesome.

has anyone had experience of K&N air filters causing issues?

this is what has happened this morning after fitting this K&N



car running well yesterday, no smoke, pulled really strong & clean. just the maf in place, no filter.

fitted the K&N this morning, started up fine. went to blip the throttle from under the bonnet and the throttle stuck open, not full but pulling plenty of revs. switched it off quick, but had a few seconds revving freely which isn't nice.
the little sheath over the throttle cable end had come adrift and jammed the linkage



cut it off and restarted fine.
let it tick-over a bit then took it for a run, blue smoke, lots. did clear after a mile or so but still a few traces

now there are 3 scenarios that i can think of as to what has happened.

1/ the car doesn't like the K&N and is sucking oil vapour through the breather pipe as the filter is too restrictive

2/ when i switched the engine off from fairly high revs it sucked oil into the exhaust/turbo through the breathers and is now burning it off

3/ i've knackered my turbo by it running at high revs then being switched straight off


pretty out of fuel now so can't tyr it until i get some cans filled. was going to take the K&N off and see if the smoke clears, think that's my next test.



which problem is it? or something i've not considered?

1/ can't see the K&N being too restrictive? thought they were meant to be more free flowing

2/ hope it's that and i haven't done any damage

3/ really hope i haven't knackered the turbo


any thoughts guys??

relief. it seems like it was problem 2

got some more fuel in it, done another 10 miles i guess and no smoke at all

There's a little rubber grommet mate that falls down the cable.You ll see it if you look at the swivel where the throttle pot is.
Push it back onto the outer cable.
That's scared me a few times driving other peoples cars when you go to brake and the throttle sticks.
Always the same thing.

The other thing which is probably mentioned earlier in the thread and I've missed it is that it is normal to oil a K&N as a part of its maintenance so it could be excess oil from an over zealous application by a previous owner being pulled through.
It has been known to mess up a MAF or 2.

not been on here for a while guys, but it was option 3
not totally down to my throttle sticking though, the oil return pipe had collapsed inside itself and blocked off the oils' means of escape.
should get the turbo back this weekend.
then it will finally be on the road

think it has been a great project the 20vt in the 145...
Love to have something like that...perfect hatchback...

well done

cheers mate

has been an enjoyable and pertty straightforward transplant aside from the wiring which i hate

is a nice little runaround now, used like it should be and not pampered at all

Hey Kev, thought you'd be on here. I recon your going to have to give me some advice with your conversion as I'm taking the bull by the horns and going for it myself.

Brad.

That is awesome!!!!!!!!! I have a 20VT coupe and my wife has an Alfa 145. The only question is why????

I now own this car (I acutally sold Kev the car before the conversion had taken place).

I like the styling of the 145 more than the coupe... plus it's a wolf in sheeps clothing. Nobody expects this sort of power to come from an old Alfa.