Quantum Coupe - Discussion

For discussion of Neil and Joe's secret project!

Nice little project, certainly different. I guess I'll be signing up for the E-shot then! Plenty of updates please, I love reading this sort of stuff.

That is going to be a mental car Neil!! And mods going onto the engine??

No mods planned at present, Marco.

Currently looking at how to redesign the front framework to make it it together - there's all sorts of rubbish bolted on in the front right hand corner of the engine...

So Neil,can you give us the spec how the exsisting car drives? Front wheel drive etc? And how will you and Joe set the coupe drive up etc?

The original keeps the basic XR2 suspension, is about the same weight, and has a lower centre of gravity. So it's nippy but not fast, but corners on rails.

We expect the new one to be faster - obviously! - but we're keeping the suspension setup the same in the short term. I expect it will need stiffer springs at both ends to deal with the heavier engine; the back's a bit soft at present.

Sadly I can't post pics until next week; I left the lead at home! Got lots, though...

How far are you along now mate? Keeping Joe busy??

You need to check the project page for updates!

Engine is in place and will have the mounts fabricated today, I think. Bonnet fits, just one small issue with one headlight easy to fix, though it's going to need some internal modifications around the radiator.

Frame is tacked in place, needs seam welding once we're happy.

thats good news mate!!

where you going to mount the intercooler??

please go for a front mount lol

the work looked impressive when i went to joes sunday, going to be an animal

dam it why cant i live closer!!!

i live in windsor marco so its not that close lol

You're welcome to come across Marco. We need someone to hold the hot bits - I'm fed up with Joe grinding off a chunk of metal and handing me the hot end!

Excellent project gents, I'm really interested on how you get on with this as I was pondering something similar with my fathers Kit Car (Sylva Striker)

Will you be able to measure the differences in weight between the 2 (I'm assuming the XR2 engine is a 1600 XFlow? )

Are you sticking with the Fiat Gearbox or going to convert it to the Ford?

Sorry for all the questions so far but I'd love to do something similar (only problem is the longitudinal mounting in the striker!

Thanks

Ben

PS I'm looking forward to some photos!

Ben,

Considered using the ford box, but rejected on grounds of the 20vt engine being longer than the ford CVH (it is a crossflow, but not what is usually meant by 'ford crossflow' I guess; I'd always associated that with the cortina/escort overhead valve engines).

Since it would need the mounts moving anyway, I decided to stick the complete lump and box in.

Unfortunately I don't know the weight of either the coupe or XR2 engine; I hope to get the car on a weighbridge when finished. A colleague on the Quantum group tells me his Zetec conversion was 880kg.

I have an idea some of the rear-wheel twin-cam boxes might work with a 20vt; if not, I'm sure an adaptor plate can be arranged. Have a look at the folk who have stuck twinks into moggie minors.

Updated today.

It will be coming home on a truck, as it won't be drivable, but all the oily bits will be done, I think. It will be a rolling chassis with an engine...

what needs finishing off then

Happy to come and help mate!!!

As we stand at the moment, off the top of my head it needs:

• Exhaust finishing (Joe's doing that now)
• Front suspension building (including a bracket for the front right tie bar) - I'm off to collect the hubs with new bearings.
• Fuel tank swap, pump and plumbing to install
• Engine to complete cambelt change
• Pedal box and steering column/wheel to install

And then it's pushable - all that remains is all the wiring, handbrake, brake pipes, master cylinder, interior, instrumentation, radio, dash...

Neil

Re: the Crossflow - it was the Mk1 Fiesta that used the Crossflow engine, and as Neil has said above the donor car (which is a Mk2 Fiesta) has the CVH engine.

Thanks for replying Barnacle, interesting stuff, I think in the end we may just go for the Zetec option as I think the Coupe engine may just be a little too long for the striker and may upset the balance a little (Although that may not be too bad a thing)

Are you keeping the Coupe ECU and management also?

Sorry for all the questions!

Thanks for confirming Daniel, I knew one of them had the Xflow in!

Sorry to be pushy but would there be any chance of one or two photos? Or maybe 10 or 20?

Now you have the engine in.Can you tell me if the engine is sitting at all the same angle's and degree's as it would in a Coupe?
If not,what problems do you both invisage haveing? ie the oil pump and its distribution of the oil etc.
Also where is the Battery going to be?

I can answer a few of these.

Yes the orientation is exactly the same as if fitted to a coupe so we haven't had to make any changes to the oil pickup pipe.
Battery is being moved to the rear as we're tight for space under the bonnet, the smic still needs fitting as well as all the induction pipework.
All the wiring including the ecu are being refitted to save on having to rewire the loom, in my opinion this is an easy job as Neil's doing it

Update for night is at 9.45pm the Quantum was wheeled off the ramp, all mounts finished and the suspension components rebuilt to make it free wheeling, the exhaust system is finished and I've managed to refit and adapt a standard downpipe with space to spare so that's saved lots of time on fabrication, Jobs still left to do are the steering coloum, brake master, pedal box, dash and wiring but the main ones will be tackled first and we'll trial run the engine as soon as we can.

This project for me has been great fun, we've probably put the best part of 100hrs work in over the past 7 days, there's been plenty of head scratching to get round problems but the end result sees a 20vt engine nicely fitted into a frame that was never intended for such a power plant, it's different and a one off so it's right up my steet

Cheers Neil

And cheers to Joe for a week of unfailing patience and enthusiasm.







The photos are being uploaded now. There are a hundred and sixty to plough through, so for now they're going on http://s156.photobucket.com/albums/t31/nailed_barnacle/Quantum%20engine/ until I get around to captioning them.

Neil

Electrics aside, who's doing what? Pretty good going for seven days of work!

A truly cracking project and its being finished to a silly high standard. That little quantum is going to be truly insane with the 20vt and sound stunning, especially with no roof!

Neil, If I need any technical drawings for a project, im coming to you

Really looking forward to seeing this completed

Easy, division of labour is that I'm doing the basic design and particularly the load analysis for the structure; we're sharing the spannering and the zizzer gun, and Joe's doing all the cutting and welding.

Sam is teasing me. There's nothing wrong with building a car based on three small hand-drawings. (As it happens, I have a 35-year-old Tech Drawing 'O' level!)

Didn't need to kill anyone on the train, Sam - ask me on monday!

The pictures now hang around with captions and occasionally comments to explain. Address as above.

Now there will be a small pause for a few weeks while Joe and I catch our breaths. The car has been left at Joe's rather than bringing it back here as there were still things that needed decisions based on comparison of 'which bit fits best'.

In particular - we're not planning to use an oil cooler, just the oil/water heat exchanger from the 20NA. This isn't a track car, just fast road, and it's only towing three-quarter's of the weight of a coupe. We may need to reconsider that choice later.

Interesting choice about the oil cooler?

Is it a case of you genuinely do not think you will need it or are there location issues with the standard 20vt oil cooler.

I can see your point to an extent, Oil takes a long old time to get hot on the 20vt and you are pulling at least half the weight.

Good luck with the rest of the project!

Bit of both, Sam. There's the weight issue, too, though I think we could get it in the same place as the original.

Neil what will be the power to weight ration on that thing??

Also what's the handling like??

Ask me about the handling when it's finished... power to weight will be in the order of 300/ton.

At the moment the handling is excellent, and it's not a bad ride either apart from the too-soft rear springs. We'll need new springs fore and aft; clearance is about 90mm at the moment. The current problem with the handling was that the throttle, clutch, and brake response was very non-linear.

Thanks for posting the photos.
It looks to be going well- I'm really surprised how much you have achieved in a week.

I hope you've had time to get the large hammer out and also to swear a bit.

Here: http://www.nailed-barnacle.co.uk/Quantum/Quantum%20upgrade.pdf is a *large* pdf describing the week in slightly more literate prose, just dashed off in a hurry for Quantum Mechanics (the quantum owner's magazine).

It's a 14M download; don't bother if you have a dialup!

About the same as a 400 bhp Coupe then. That will shift.

That point had not escaped my notice.

just keep your eyes peeled for stan in your rear view mirrors!!

He's my friend, Stan is... (checks frozen doughnut supply)

lol do you want a hand with this at any time mate??

if so... you have my number!! drop me a text and im more than happy to come and help!

Just had a read of this. Entertaining stuff

The current plan is first to try and resolve the issues with the Ford parts. A lot of back and forth has established that whatever those hubs and driveshafts are, they *ain't* off a Fiesta, or indeed anything else on the ford car range.

So the current plan is to source complete hubs, hub carriers, brake callipers, and driveshafts from both sides, so we know what we're working with. After that, we bolt on Mondeo V6 discs (280mm) and brakes, and sort out the spring rates - I've located a supplier, but I need to do the sums on them to calculate the correct rate. I also need to find some 15" wheels to fit the larger brakes in.

After that, the engine comes out again so we can mount the pedal box and steering column, and rerun the brake pipework. We can probably paint the steelwork at that point, get the engine back in, sort out the plumbing and the air feeds, mount the radiator, find a place for the intercooler, decide finally which way we cool the oil, run all the cables, build the instrument panel into the dash, and get the wiring loom installed.

Reminds me - need to change the insurance!

Saw this up at Joe's the other day and the work so far looks very, very good.
Takes me back to the days when we were throwing Fiat twin cams into Capris, Escorts etc, trial and error, head scratching and swearing all being part of the process.

The engine looks to be as far back behind the front wheels as room permits so the handling shouldn't have been spoiled too much, not sure what the weight difference is between the two drivetrains.

So long as the rest of the chassis will cope with the extra power over the original design, this will be a screamer.

You may find that an oil cooler might well be needed; although its not having to work as hard dragging a lighter body around, those extra horses will be generating that little bit more heat and you'll probably find that your right foot will be planted firmly on the floor more often as the accelleration addiction takes hold

Thanks!

Joe's just located a set of XR2i (=Fiesta MK3) hubs and shocks and driveshafts, so with that we should be able to get the new CVs sorted and drive shafts made.

Regarding cooling - we'll have to see. I find that the 20vt engine runs very cool on oil temperature anyway - I think it's thermostatically controlled, and it's possibly never getting up to cooling-required temperatures. I'll have the metering to be able to see what's going on.

The weight difference is sufficient that the springs are 30mm lower than they should be... now if only I knew what the spring rate on the standard springs was I could work out what I need to sort that!

Right, this one's starting to move again.

Just won a set of Focus Ghia wheels (the fifteen inch ten-spokes) complete with tyres which I will no doubt have to replace. They'll fit around the Mondeo V6 disks and callipers which will themselves fit on the XR2i struts and hubs and might give it some stopping power commensurate with the mass and potential speed of the thing.

Shopping list now:

Mondeo 280mm disks - £34.46
Mondeo pads - £21.03
Mondeo calipers - £126.38 or perhaps twenty quid of the Bay... possibly the first port of call anyway since I've found a pair there that include the necessary slide carriers - new calipers don't come with those!

Will also need a pair of front shocks - I'll start with standard, I think, and see how they bounce! - and some new springs fore and aft, which I can't order until I've done some measurements on the originals.

I'm over to Joe's for a day's fettling in a couple of weeks, and will let you know what happens then.

Neil when you go to Joe's give me a shout! i will come up with you and see uncle Joe!

You have pm.

Right, some bits on the way...

The wheels have arrived - tyres are rubbish but that was expected, not complaining at seventy quid for a decent set of alloys.

Just won an ebay auction for the calipers, mounts, and all the hardware (annoyingly, none of the caliper replacements include the mounts) so they'll be in the post soon.

Eyeballing KYB Ultra-SR shocks, plus rubbers, 280mm discs and brake pads from buypartsby - about a hundred thirty quid.

Then it just needs the odds and sods - bearings and CV joints and sorting the drive shafts. Should be a busy day next Friday...

Another couple of days work this week. The pedal box is now in place - with the exception of the clutch master, which might need a little frame making to mount it square and perhaps change the angle of the actuating arm.

Sorted out some proper bolts for the wheels; much more secure. But sadly, though we've finally located the correct MK2 Fiesta CV joints, the supplier didn't send the bearings <grrr> so the front wheels aren't back together.

So I've stuck some photos on the documentation thread.

this is a great project, keep it up Neil!!

It's all starting to come together, Rich. Now I'm waiting for Joe to get back from wherever, and we reckon another two or three hard days will see it driving (if unfinished!).

Hi Barnacle.

How is it going? I would not be worried about my project, a) its going to take a long time to finish and b) its completly different.

I am build a mid engined 'Locost' style car. Basically a lotus 7 or caterham style car, but with the engine in the back and i am building it entirly from scratch. I have designed the whole chassis my self basing my ideas around the 'haynes' book you can buy.

I am looking at a car weighing around 500kg - so rightly so sould be a fairly rapid machine.

I have nearly finished braking the car, so once thats out the way the next step is to actually build the chassis, i still have a lot of design work to do at the rear end of the car. So thats what i will be doing over the winter.

Rob

So you'll be using the front of the coupe as the back of the kit? Like the old mini kits used to work? In which case you'll need something like the frame we constructed for the front of the Q to hold it - let me know if you need any dimensions.

From memory, you can keep the top of the engine to 25" off the ground; should make quite a low car.

Will you start a projects thread?

Hey,

Yes I have requested access today. Probably start the tread at the weekend when I have more time.
I have designed the car my self and made the frame in wood, this mock up will be refinned before the serious metal work starts. Used a 2D CAD package to draw the frame.

The engine will be in the back and yes hope it will be low.

The coupe shell should be gone on Friday so that will be good. Still have to sort my garage out before the build begins.

By the way, how do you upload photos?

Cheers, Rob

For the photos, you need to host externally on e.g. photobucket - one of the hosts that doesn't need a password to view. Then you need to use the [ imgpop ] and [ /imgpop ] to frame the direct link.

It occurs to me that the coupe solves a lot of the issues with front-wheel drive moved to the middle... the rear tracking is obvious, but the hydraulic clutch and gearbox cables means you can probably avoid some of the vague gearbox problems, and the electric speedo and revs means your instruments work off the shelf. You need to solve the handbrake problem, of course, and the brake balance to the driven wheels, but that shouldn't be too difficult to sort.

Make sure you keep *all* the electrics - looms, lights, whatever. You can throw away later what you don't need.

My first kit car was originally intended to be a single-donor Triumph Dolomite source, but I used a separate chassis with timber and aluminium sheet, and ended up with a nissan engine and fuel tank, cortina front subframe and suspension, escort rear suspension and axle with panhard rod, datsun 240z steering and instruments... and spitfire seats. And I bought a double-decker bus - for a fiver - just to get the nice alloy fuel filler cap!

Barnacle,

Please see my project, not had time to start the write up...........

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l603/b14wrc/photolineup.jpg[/IMG]" onclick="window.open('http://www.fiatcoupeclub.org/forum/imagepopup.php?image=[IMG]http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l603/b14wrc/photolineup.jpg[/IMG]', 'imagepopup', 'toolbar=no,scrollbars=yes,width=300,height=300'); return false;">http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l603/b14wrc/photolineup.jpg[/IMG]" style="border: 1px solid black; padding: 5px;" height="60" vspace="5" alt="click to enlarge">

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Cheers Rob

Ok, I'm back on this one for a couple of days - let's see if we can get the thing moving under its own steam!

Steam? Now that is novel! Wonder if it'll catch on

Stanley Steamer mate - world speed record holder I believe at one time!

I cant wait to see how this thread is going to shape up Neil, its a fine beast your building there!

Neil

It is a great project and i would love a ride it in when finished.

Now hurry up and finish it because I can't get Joe to do any work on my car!!!

Oh and just for you -

It just keeps getting better...

I'm back with Joe on Tuesday to try and get it street legal; I want to come away on Saturday with an MOT.

As we left it, we managed to make the steering column an inch and a half shorter than it needed to be, so we'll remake that as the first thing, and mount the gearstick on the tunnel.

I ordered four more wheels - so now this damn car has *twelve* which should arrive tomorrow, complete with new tyres. Joe and I decided that the complications of the Focus 15" wheels stupid 55mm offset has confused the issue too much; I've got some with 25mm offset which give me another 30mm. It will be getting tyres at 185/55R15 which are the same diameter as 195/50/R15; about 4% smaller than the 205/50/R16 that the coupe expects, but it gives enough space to turn the steering!

If anyone needs wheels for a Ford, watch for my ad on eBay...

i may come up to see you Neil!
also as i will be there... may as well see if i can give a helping hand!

The best helping hand I could give would be to keep it in my pocket!

Tuesday through Saturday, Marco...

cool beans!

looks like you will have it running today then Neil!!

so an MOT is possible for Saturday!!!

i must say, having seen the Quaturbo kit car..

it is a lovely bit of Kit, Joes welding is top notch!!

good luck for the MOT tomorrow!

***ing vacuum spigot fell off the turbo...

'Quanturbo', surely?

just put another turbo unit onto it!
im sure joes has a few million turbos kicking about!!!

you liking the name??

A bit late now, but a few photo's would really enrich the reading experience. Oh I see - it's because it's a "secret" project!

Loved this bit....



Superb!!!

Now, in the Royal Navy there is a saying that is beaten into you when using tins of paint, and it doesn't matter what rank/rate you are!

"Stick it on the deck, that way it has less distance to fall!"

Excellent write-up Neil and sounds like Joe is the Wizard of the Welder! Well, let me put that another way, without denigrating Joe in any way at all, all those welds on running/steering/suspension gear, and if *one* fails a Damien Hurst painted floor may be the least of your worries!

Whoops! I promised myself I wouldn't include a smiley in this post, sorry!

Pictures to be added to the main thread in the next few minutes; just stuck 48 in photobucket.

http://s156.photobucket.com/albums/t31/nailed_barnacle/Quantum%20engine/Quantum%20engine%20part%203/

can't wait till this is done!!

It was close enough to running this weekend to taste it... damn!

Does this mean you have to give in to the Mrs?

She has accepted that hospitalisation is sufficient excuse for a delay.

We were so close to getting this running, couple more days and she'll be ready for the MOT.

Jakes simple appendix removal has turned a little sour as he's now got an infection and won't be home just yet

i hope Jakes ok Joe!

good luck for next time Neil and Joe!!!!!

Neil, if you want, next time you go see Joe, i could give you a lift up there!
saves you leaving a car there!!

Damn, best wishes to Jake, Joe.

I reckon the next stage - the wiring - needs only a single new connection making: the fuel pump wiring. The rest of the wiring can be draped over the wings and clipped together.

One pipe for the PS pump, two connectors for the radiator go and return, and the dipstick tube, and the engine bay's finished. Pair of jump leads to prove it all works... half a day?

Then another day to sort out the actual holes for the loom to come through, build some sort of semblance of a dash, drop the instruments and switches in on temporary mounts, MOT.

Sorted.

It does occur to me though that this might have been a *tad* excessive just to stop the offside dipped headlight fuse blowing every time I went over a hole in the road...

bling!!!!

Bling in your engine bay Neil!?

What is the world coming to?

That's not bling, that's 'the crap we sell when the chavs come in'. I know that, because that's what the man behind the counter said...

So we "could" call you a chav!!!!!

But we love you too much for that!

Plus sir barnacle chav does not have the same ring to it!! Hahaha

Only playing!
Put some thing nice it like a HKS mushroom filter!

Well we needed a solution and I think this option is a great fix

looking really good, one hell of a build!

Neil, Love the yellow, this following picture feels me with a deep cold forbidding feeling



I suppose you are kind of used to messes like this

When you stretch it out, it's about fifteen metres long, I reckon. I don't usually get out of bed for under half a kilometer!

A result with the insurers today.

Friday I rang them to notify an engine change.
"Yes sir, that will be three hundred and forty pounds."
"Er, no it won't."
"Yes it will, sir."
"Er, the car is insured on a fixed price deal irrespective of engine, through the owner's club. There should be no charge except an admin charge."
"Please hold while I consult a manager..."
<vivaldi>
<vivaldi>
<vivaldi>
"I'm sorry sir, the manager insists that this is correct."
"OK, don't do anything for now, I'll talk to the club."

Had a long conversation with the chairman of the Quantum club (one upshot of which is that the Quanturbo is now booked for Brooklands on 30th April and Stoneleigh for the Kit Car show on the 1st May).

Phone call this morning:
"Hello, is that Mr Barnes? I've got some good news for you. We got it wrong on Friday..."

Twenty quid for the admin charge. Result.

Is this the wire you're missing?

Can't understand a word they're saying...

Enjoyed your post tonight, made me chuckle

Cracking afternoon Neil, it was good to hear her crack into life

Here's a small file with some pictures and a couple of videos from today.

Clicky click.

Hereafter, you are to be called 'Igor' and you must scamper on command!

Igor the metal bashing welder with a vice like grip and woolly hat

Here's the first few minutes of the engine running for the first time again, fired up that quick it made me jump.

Quantum 20vt

got to love Neil doing the rube boy pose!!

I was sitting there going 'vroom, vroom'.

all you needed was Mario by your side and BOOM your 99% in chav land!!!

woop woop!!

(too much coffee today sir... )

I can tell!

Superb news Neil!

I assume Joe will soon be offering custom fabricated space frame coupe chassis (and carbon fibre removable body panels)

Nobby joe already does if you have the budget

woop woop

And if you have an urge to read about the progress so far, in slightly more literate terms:

Part 1 (warning - 14MB pdf)

and

Part 2 (slightly more palatable 1.3MB)

with pictures

http://s156.photobucket.com/albums/t31/nailed_barnacle/Quantum%20engine/

It's coming home in the morning!

It's home!

Drove off the truck and into the garage... I think it's hiding from the rain.

well done Neil!

bet you and joe are happy men!!!

An excellent project Neil, it's such a sweet engine I have considered putting it into many a contraption! It was never going to be straightforward, but dedication and skill is a fine victory. I doff my hat to you both

Thank you Leighton. The engine's gone in fine - it's the rest of the bloody loom that's giving me grief at the moment...

You're making excellent progress with the wiring Neil, I look forward to you coming over to see me in the very near future

Soon, Joe, soon...

Neil, Out of interest are both driveshafts equal in length? If not do you think this would have any effect on torque steer? I seem to remember something somewhere that driveshafts need to be equal to help eliminate torque steer a little. No idea how much truth is in that statement though?

No, they're not. The right hand one is the longer; the engine is offset to the left.

It will be interesting to see how the torque steer goes.

Is the solid pipe half inch which compression fittings?

Well done pal!Bet its scary quick

Half inch with two 90 bends soldered in.

The K&N will make just as much noise as that Halfords jobbie Neil, if you want it quieter we'll need to sort out an air box with a pipe route that gives it some length from the MAF.

I was very pleased to hear that there's no lag on spool up, I bet unless you're on a hill you won't be needing 1st gear

Can't wait to test drive her Tuesday, I'll buy lunch

Size of your feet, mate, you won't be able to drive it till we move the pedals a little!

Seriously, thanks for the help on this one. Couldn't have done it without you.

Um, moving these last few comments to the discussion thread.

I'll soon move the pedals

No problem with the assistance today

Nope, damn good call on that one.

Congrats to both of you!

Neil, can I blag a test drive

You *may*, if you're very very good and finish all your greens, be allowed to sit in the passenger seat and make 'vroom vroom' noises!

Until it's got a few more miles on it and I've sorted any niggles/snags, I'm being very precious about it.

you beat me too it, i was talking to a mate the other day about using my quantum to stick a coupe engine in at the end of summer as a project. mines just sat there for the last 4years so needed to do something with it. how did it go in the end?

It goes like the brown stuff off a shovel... it's at Joe's at the moment again, getting an MOT and some work around the intake system and a replacement VC (it has a tendency to head for the hedges when I boot it at the moment!)

Marco had a ride as passenger and cried like a girl!