Surrey RR - 2nd Feb 2013 - Results

I'm back already as I'm meant to be on the way to a 60th birthday, but thought I would kick this off.

My results are :

399.2bhp
385ft/lbs
1.35bar solid

I'll let Barbz and Biggez say how much their hearts are broken

322.6 bhp
305 ftlbs
1.4 bar



Plus failed chod

Subaru Forester 2.5 XT Prodrive

245.6 BHP
260 ft/lbs
0.85 Bar

Alexis, better change your wording under your pic
Cheers for sorting out the meet Chris, good weather for nice cold dense air

228.8 bhp
225 lb/ft
0.7 bar redline
1.2 bar peak

Standard spec with a GTEC1 and HDI boost controller. I'm very happy with the result!

Unlucky with the CHOD Jack, and good luck getting it fixed. Great day chaps and it was good to meet you all. I think I've just about warmed up!

Excellent effort from Pero and his mate Emmanuel who got his Coupe to SRR on Emmanuel's flat bed!

Here is my graph for the day. Nice flat torque and power curves, so I'm very happy with that.

231 bhp

Standard part from a flea remap, only one run due to not holding boost properly (suspected failing actuator).

Chris didn't realise yours had a gtec1 chip, thought it was completely standard. Cheers for organising the event, was a great day, apart from it being on the cold side.

Oh Yes, its bleeding.

485hp 400trq @ 1.9bar.

Thanks for organising Gunzi. I think Lottie must hold the record for youngest person at a FCCUK meet.

262.6 bhp
460 ft/lb

Oh and that GT-R

The Tipo Sedicivalvole came in at a respectable 140BHP

Having lost 7 BHP in twenty years

505bhp 382lbft @ 2.15bar.

My heart's not bleeding. I'm over the moon.

My old mans Mini Cooper D 2007

113bhp
190lb/ft

(Book figures from Mini are 108bhp & 190lb/ft).

He was happy with that.

My mate Emmanuel with his Coupe made

395bhp 320lbft @ 1.6bar.

This must be the record for a car with stock internals!

Good day lads.

How many hearts are brokern then????

I hope not too many.

I will be down soon once stand alone is on.

Top job gunzi for the meet.

Great day :-

272 bhp
275 lbs/ft torque
1.2 bar

unmapped and running on a 226,000 mile engine

Biggenz & Barbz's cars were incredible, as was the Skyline

Not a totally happy bunny, very low figures for my set up. Something is very wrong at least i have the excuse that it's not running properly. Charlie said it's not anything obvious but it should be putting out somewhere close to 300bhp. I have a turbo technics S161 hybrid turbo, fmic, 2.5" exhaust with race cat, k&n filter, uprated ebv, fuel pump wiring mod, colder plugs and stage 2 flea map. Anyone got any ideas?

Looks like an interesting day, good old Dyno Dynamics lottery! It would be great if everyone could post their graphs, gives a much better understanding of the performance than just peak figures.

James, was the boost level correct all the way to the limiter? If yes, then I would be looking to a transmission problem i.e. low pressue in tyres, binding brake etc, as the wheel power is low for your setup. That's the single biggest problem with the DD dyno, it doesn't give any clues to the problem. On my dyno it would measure the transmission losses so you would see a big discrepancy between wheel power and flywheel power (which would remain constant). We had a Focus ST in last month, first run it made 340bhp, second run it made 340bhp but wheel power was way down... the reason was a punctured tyre!

Jame5 I think your afr graph tells a story.
Too much fuel.
Did the boost tail off suddenly towards the end?

To be fair, if he made 280bhp on the Dastek, then 240bhp on the heartbreaker seems about right.

Well done mc gwar the old red/pink LE did it again.

Good strong power from a nice simple set up.
Good day.

Get the other two down now lol.

I knew you were pushing 300bhp when you were on my bumper at brize norton airbase.
But I did beat you with the bravo bloody close mind you.

Leighton, I've just added my graphs on the 1st page. Not sure what you did when you changed that map for me a couple of months ago but it seems like the torque is way more linear and the turbo comes into play some 500rpm faster

It would be a top day for my but the 3hr wait for the recovery track spoiled it a bit... Anyway, time to order bits and pieces and fix the old girl asap

Looks spot on Jack, despite de-tuning from 99 to 97 octane

That's what Charlie from SRR said - all perfect but the coolant hose Cheers again Leighton

265bhp @ 5250rpm
275lb/ft @ 4300rpm
1.55bar @ 3700rpm then tailed off to 1.25 @ 6000rpm
The AFR was a bit all over the place.

The poor beastie was suffering a misfire and a possible boost leak. Barbz has offered to mend my broken heart next week before I resort to

By the way, many thanks to Gunzi for organising this. The GTR was phenomenal, but I LOVED the white GT3

What did the GTR and 911 make?

568 and 393

Cool.

911 gt3 was it factory 400bhp?

Get your graphs up Tim

My graphs

Power and Torque


Power and Boost


Photobucket is being stupid, it keeps putting one photo on the side regardless of the roatation.

Had exactly the same thing, gave up in the end and posted them sideways!

No boost levels as my vacuum hoses were secured with hoseclips and a slot head screwdriver wasn't immediately to hand they decided to do the run without boost readings
I have noticed a little clutch slip on full boost occasionally but i would have thought that they would have noticed that on the run?

Don't you carry a basic set of tools in your car?

for a power run I wouldnt expect the RR operators to do any form of diagnostics. its a production line of roll on roll off and get your graph.

For 35 quid each owner should make sure the car is ready, that's why you dont pay 250-500 quid

ok maybe they could pick up on stuff, but i wouldnt expect that... else it turns into a workshop event were everyone wants things fixed as opposed to a rr shoot out...

I only had a socket set with me at the time and wasn't given any time to try and borrow a screwdriver, despite being in a workshop full of tool boxes. I didn't expect any diagnostics or anything fixed, just a couple of minutes to undo one hoseclip, not too much to ask. It sounds like i'm bitching after getting a low reading but i'm not, it's not their fault, they did what they were paid to do. I just felt a bit rushed in and out and a boost reading would really help figure out what the problem could be.

That was a great day at Brize Norton John, that Bravo was rapid.

My boost on the Surrey RR was 1.2 bar at 3500 rpm, but had tailed away to 0.8 bar at 6000 rpm.

Talking to Porky Paul today (and riding shotgun in his car at 1.35 bar !)I'm thinking maybe I should invest in a decent boost controller ?

My graphs :-








would a boost controller hold boost longer ?

Comments welcome

You have a ginger mullet............well you did say comments welcome

Here's mine. I got to say I'm broken by the HeartBreaker!!

I have also scanned the last RR session graph at Owen Developments for comparison purposes.



The plots of the two graphs are very similar right up to approx 5000 revs ,it's then the obvious differences occur.Dropping to 1 Bar of boost by 5500 revs didn't help, where I seem to remember at Owen's holding 1.3 BAR wasn't a problem.The Coop was still on a Novitec chip back then but has since been mapped by Flea.


Im sorry, I still have not worked out how to link a photo properly even after all these years. If somebody would be kind enough ...................

Oh yes, thanks to Gunzi for the organizing of course and always good to see/meet old/new faces.

The Nissan GTR was amazing!! Impressive stuff, as was Barbz' and Biggenz' Coops. Was good to meet you at last Pero.

Thanks Begbie!

No worries, you can't use the image button but you need to use :

hmmm, sounds a bit harsh, but i guess they are only interested in getting people on and off the rollers.

at least now you know what needs looking at ....

The guy (Charlie) spent some time after my run explaining to Barbz and myself what he thought were the issues... fair play to him.

And he needed to manhandle some breezeblocks to keep Barbz' car on the rollers

Been using Charlie coming on 9 years now and we've had some real heart stopping moments on his dyno. Proper power!

Stop clogging up the thread, Sam will get you

Sean I wrote a step by step how to post an image, it's a sticky in the Coupe related chat section. As bet is has said it's all in the IMGPOP.

James, I think the issue you had was your running position. Charlie was saying around the time you ran his helper with the mo hawk was complaining that there were still ~9 runs left, which may go some way to explaining the rushed feeling you had. Fred was 2nd on the rollers and ran 317 rather than the 350 he was expecting charlie took the time to explain potential issues to look at.

I hope you can get it sorted and sorry you didn't get quite the experience others did.

One thing I can say is you won the award for most gleaming Coupe of the day, with Pero a very close second! Me, well when I got back I saw I'd missed a bit on my door when giving it a quick wash on Friday...!

I did get the feeling they were getting a bit tired, to be fair i didn't see them take a break all day and there where still cars waiting after we left. I still enjoyed the day and thanks for organising everything. I would be happy to go back again when the cars sorted, i'll just make sure i get in first
I have a few short video clips i'm trying to sort out at the moment, i'll post them up when i figure it all out (new camera) .

Probably not helped by all the other non coupes running first

Your problem stems from the power sapping 10afr fuel mixture. So not the end of the world, an easy fix.

Dont worry mate, i've had to settle for 485hp on the day as 0.25bar boost went walkies somewhere.
But great day anyway, got to catch up with some old/new faces.

Begbie's old 16vt was mighty impressive beast also.

What is it with dynos, some cars go one and have no problem getting full boost, yet others its a lottery, mine NEVER gets to full boost on any of the 3 Dynos I've been on!
0.3 bar & 0.2 bar short both times been on dastek,
0.25 bar short on dyno jet!!
Quite frustrating!!

Nick

I've been very lucky in that respect. I normally hold full boost all the way to the redline, dyno or road. My turbo and wastegate combination seem to be working very well together.

2.15bar all the way to 8krpm in 4th on Saturday!

I noticed the same thing... I was some 0.25 bar short whereas on the road it's 1.4bar to the redline...

Good to see everyone. Some epic cars on show as always - never seen a GTR or GT3 on the dyno so thank for those chaps for bringing them.

I'll definately bring the RS6 down for a dyno meet soon. Just need the bumper fixing and a remap - then to unleash 500+ bhp and 600 lbs/ft

Hope you guys don't mind me posting here. Afterall, Dyno Dynamics rollers are supposed to be designed to be comparable to each other no matter where they are:

I originally planned to go to the SRR meet but other commitments meant that I wasn't going to make it. So a few weeks ago I took a sneaky run on the Dyno Dynamics at Subaru 4 You in Newbury. Note it was actually run in the correct mode; Shoot 4F!



VIDEO


Original printout, from the Dyno Star dyno that I mapped the car on


Observations: The DD didn't load the engine enough below 4000 rpm, resulting in the turbo spooling up more slowly than it would on the road. Hence the torque before 4500 rpm looking a lot lower than it should be.

But peak torque and power are much closer. On the DD, the Coupe made 393 bhp / 380 lbsft @ 1.5 bar. Compared to 403 bhp/ 385 lbsft on the Dyno Star. Less than 3% difference - well within acceptable error considering different dyno, ramp rate, weather conditions, etc. Heart definitely not broken!

Hey Buddy,

Nice result! How come you are only running 1.35bar?

No idea, on the road it's always 1.5bar, but on the dyno it's less. I had this years ago pre engine blow up, used to run 1.4bar on the road, but only showed 1.2 on the dyno.

Just finished scanning my graphs in as well.

Ah I see! The loading on the car is different between the two perhaps. For instance my car makes more boost in the higher gears...

Ps Thats a really steep power curve! Must feel awesome on the road!

Thanks Barbz

Your welcome!

Oi!


The only 2 coupe's that comfortably breezed past 400hp on the day..

Ahem. Only one Coupe breezed past 500bhp on the day.

Willies are only to be waved at dawn thanks.

Funny you should say that. I know a Dawn. And I don't like to wake up at crack of Dawn.

Lol!

Aiding and abetting

Who got the most torque on the day?

The GT-R, then me.

Anyone take any videos of the Gtr?
Was it new shape r35?

So what's the fix The Wise Old One?

Yes it was the new shaped one, the R35? I chatted to Ian and it had a few upgrades including the Y pipe and a stage conversion. No videos by me but it rolled 569bhp and sounded amazing!

Call me and i'll sort it

The first step would be to let me check it on the road, as it has been four years this month since it was mapped, so potential for variances in engine components/sensors over that time. I have looked at your old logs and you are only running 0.3-0.4 AFR richer than I set it, so not a million miles out at all. We never had your Coupe on my dyno, so would be good to compare

As for it having a power sapping 10 AFR, if you actually look at the graph you will see it only briefly touches 10.9 between 3.5-4.5k, but in all other areas it is averaging 11.1-11.2 and at peak power it is 11.4 so far from being power sapping!! There seems to be considerable lack of understanding regarding air fuel ratios on power/torque, something I will be addressing in detail later on.

The main problem with your car is the lack of boost, if you compare your car to deannn_20vt, as you both have the same RSR turbo, you will see you have 0.25bar less boost pretty much all the way to the redline. That's a lot of pressure to be giving up!



The main culprit for this is the wastegate actuator, therefore we should adjust the pre-load or replace for a 14psi actuator so that the correct level of boost can be used. I'll give you a call later Sean

Oh and we still seem to be missing a fair few graphs, come on chaps!!

Just out of interest how much more power do you think both dean-20vt and Begbie would have got if they've have achieved the boost they get on the road...
Dean-20vt's usually holds 1.4 to redline (1.2 @ redline on dyno)
Begbies is normally 1.5 to redline (boost only got to 1.35 then held all the way)????
I reckon dean-20vt would have got to around 340 (from 322) & Begbie would have done atleast 420 (from 399), & prob 400 torques!!
All speculation I know, but it seems Fleas Dastek is at MOST 5% out..... Although tim42's results are near identicle!!


Nick

Couple of videos :

392bhp Porsche GT3RS
567bhp Skyline GTR

Well Jack (deannn_20vt) didn't have his car on my dyno when I detuned it from 99 to 97 octane, although I don't think his does hold 1.4bar all the way from memory. As for Begbie, well I agree it would have seen another 20bhp and 15lbs/ft, well within the efficiency of the turbo.

Tim's green Coupe now has a Stage 3 hybrid and all the usual bolt on mods, although I haven't mapped it so not sure how it has been setup. It certainly needs some attention as 1.55bar is way too much boost (and likely more on the road!), especially if AFR's are all over the place. Very unusual to have torque higher than bhp, and peak power at 5200rpm that never happens on a 20vt engine. The only time I ever really see this is if the engine is detonating badly at peak torque (cylinder pressures), so torque and power drop off a cliff.

Here's an AFR table to help.

Air/fuel mixture and characteristics

6.0 rich burn limit (fully warm engine)
9.0/10.0 black smoke/low power
11.5 approx rich best torque at wide-open throttle
12.0 safe best power at wide-open throttle
13.3 approx lean best torque
14.6 stoichiometric AFR (chemically ideal) <-- mean just enough fuel and air
15.5 lean cruise
16.5 usual best economy

Please contact Jamie5 and Stuart81 as they need your asisstance also.

I already have Barbz Anyway, let's see your graphs!

Interesting to note the GTR R35 air fuel ratios!

Brilliant!

One sec.

All and well having great peak power figures but the journey to 500hp can be an interesting one.

At least scan it so it shows the X axis too!

Oops! Forgot legend.

Biggenz - Green.
PT6262 82ar (GT35 category)
2.15bar

Mine - Black.
GTX3076 82ar
1.9bar

Scanned by a third party

What you'd suspect from a remapped version i suppose?

Pictures and thousand words spring to mind

I'll scan my graphs when I get home tonight, mine wasn't holding boost so someone maybe able to shed light on what the issue maybe. It's also idling very strangely once hot (I'll post up a clip of what I mean).

Lots of results missing guys cmon.

Someone should do a list, a bit like the attendees list then bhp and torque figures next to names.

If i spent 50k on a GTR R35 and my afr profile look like that, i'd send it back.

On tarmac, both coupe's have unrelenting power deliver in every gear. Biggenz's has 1 main advantage due to the size of turbocharger, he's able to stretch the rpm threshold further in each gear by 1300rpm. I make up the loss lower down for a more track focused setup.

Horses for courses..

So whats the verdict on these graphs? Any issues?

The car is pretty much standard apart from powerflow exhaust and FC performance remap.

Stuart are you using the standard boost controller? The boost trace has fluctuations which indicate the standard EBV is failing.

I can't help with the overall power but that's what I can see from the graphs.

Hey Chris,

Yes it is the standard boost controller, although I'm pretty sure Barbz replaced it for me last year so I'm wandering if it might be something else?

Also I would expect to see power peaking earlier than it is comparing it to other graphs?

I'll let Barbz comment on that one, but that fluctuation usually is a clear sign of a failing EBV.

Our cars are very similar, you have a fleamap and exhaust and I have a GTEC 1, no oil recirculation system for the intake & HDI boost controller. Everything else on our cars is standard.

OK I can't edit my original post, so here are my graphs:

Power & Torque


Power & Boost


Power & AFR

I took some photos on the day.

First thing


996 GT3 RS



Barbz's Mean Green Machine


Nick's Tipo


And a Pink Coupe thanks to the dodgy camera!


When I left I was greeted by this beauty, my favourite car from the 80's

Quite possible the ebv.
Something i'm sure flea can shed some light on, as he will have the data logs.

That is an awesome result fair play!!

Out of interest what were your AFR readings like? Perhaps you could share your graphs? Are you still on the factory ecu?

Can we see your graphs in full with axis (all three graphs please), and anyone else who hasn't put them up yet?

Your car looks to perform very similar to Speedygonzales, same turbo etc, although Mick is still on the standard manifold.

I know I've been going on about my results for the day, but it's not all good news. For a start, I'm down 60hp from Flea's dyno. How did that happen?? And before anyone says the hearbreaker under reads, there were a few standard cars that made near enough exactly what they quote in the handbook.

Then if you look at Barbz's graphs, he made exactly the same power as I did, with a smaller turbo and with more torque. And he has 600rpm spool on me. The only advantage I have is I can rev higher.

It is awesome results really, as Biggenz spec is not so sophisticated. Still using the standard manifold and standard cams. There is also no water/methanol injection to help things, and worst of all it was mapped on 97 octane fuel as Pero get's this free on a company card! It could see another 30bhp+ if it had the benefit of all these other things.

Oh and yes, still using the factory Bosch ECU

How many people involved In this dyno day have been dyno'd at fleas with EXACTLY the same set up?? .....so can be compared.

Begbie (would have been approxinnately down 4% with same boost)
Biggenz ( approx -10%)

Can we list any others that have a graph in fleas dyno league table so we can compare??

Of course I'm running Aquamist!!

I'm actually making a new Heartbreaker league table where people can put up their results to compare.

Yes the boost does show some significant fluctuations, a common problem with the standard EBV. Can you feel these fluctuations on the road? The dyno can often upset the calibrations for the first few runs due to the loading, but if you feel the fluctuations on the road (or see on a gauge), then time to get an upgraded EBV or use an external controller. Send me a PM if you need any more advice.

My mistake on the Aquamist, but you did skimp on the good 99 octane fuel!!

Anyway, you like your lag monster, why is everyone so scared of lag you would say Speedygonzales also has the same GTX3076 0.82 turbo as Barbz (standard manifold though), and his car also spools up 600rpm earlier with more torque and less boost than your car. It is just the very nature of the turbo you have, designed for big boost and drag racing!

Oh and I could show you a hundred cars that make standard power on my dyno. In fact, we had a Mclaren M1B on last week which has a 6.2 Chevy V8 on carbs. The engine was freshly rebuilt, it made bang on 550bhp which is the standard power figure for when it was built back in the 60s! Another M1B followed which was bored out to 6.9 litres and a few more tricks made 640bhp. Surrey RR is the lowest reading dyno bar none, if you think that makes it more accurate then your call. For me I want solid repeatable results between cars and modifcations, that reflect how the car performs on the road, and correlates with all the same data.

How much did Speedy make on the Maha again(which is more forgiving than the heartbreaker)?

Was Speedy's run in third gear?

My coupe on dyno

Boost


AFR

It's brain numbing sometimes debating data, graphs and dyno controversies.
Lets switch over to a more positive and interesting observation.

Here's a bhp per ton table of the top two Coupe's of the day.

Biggenz 20v 2.0l 505hp = 382hp per ton

Barbz 20v 2.1L 485hp = 373hp per ton

Cars on our heels.

Noble M12 GTO - (321)
TVR Tuscan Convertible - (337)
Ferrari F430 - (342)
Lamborghini Murciélago - (351)
Corvette Z06 - (361)
Westfield Sport 2000 - (370)

And not forgetting the highest hp recorded on the day..

The mighty Gtr R35 Skyline 569hp = 327 per ton

Shows heels to:

BMW M5 (E60) - (278)
Ferrari 550 Maranello - (287)
Mercedes-Benz SL65 AMG - (295)
Porsche 911 GT3 RS - (997) (302)
Porsche 959 - (315)
TVR T350C - (318)

We're they run in 4th then?

I'm sure I overheard Charlie speaking to the GTR owner saying it wasn't quite running as smooth as it should - possibly mentioned 'plugs' and the owner said it needed a full service. So it could have made more!

Forgot to switch mine on that day.

Back on topic

Moral of the story here is no matter who maps the cars they never read identical on different rollers.

As long as your happy with the car and how it drives then it doesn't matter what the dyno said.
After all peak power figures don't add inches to your Richard.

I had my car mapped at FCP and got 550ish.
The next day on a different rollers it got 583bhp.

On maha rollers it got 498.

My current setup got 579 bhp which is around 94% VE with a 2.5 using the 3076.
On dastek it made 612.

On heartbreaker it probably would be around 530-550 maybe.
But I will always quote the 612.



For all those who maybe got irregular afr results then try testing it on the road as no matter how your dyno or the mapper tunes it,there will be changes due to load and environment the dynos simply can't simulate.

Who are you and what have you done with Johnny?

Here are my graphs.

Axis are missing?

Well said!

When all the wafflings over and the rulers are put to bed, there's only one place where it counts:

On the straights.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDVCtf3JcBk

Out the bends
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb0nwljwkCY

Jbt out back, SeanC ready to throw up

Barbs your always changing things

This is where I have evidence that there's two sides to a story

Here's mine



Taken shortly after the above
Jbt upfront,Barbz in his favourite position behind me.

Know your place little man.

... especially when buried in a Leicester car park.

Maybe we should just test our Coupe's DNA....

You had my number mate.
Did me fair and square,great driving

Makes the score 2:1 to me still as I beat you at Bruntingthorpe and Santa pod
As I said above your always behind.
The student beat the master.

Good to finally see the graphs on here!

Barbz, your car is very similar to Speedy's, and I assume from the boost profile i.e. restricted to 1.5bar coming on boost before ramping up, that you have also suffered with significant compressor surge? This is all important information, as it will affect choices and further development.

Dynos are great, but I am more than happy with the Dastek dyno I use. It is consistant, has been tested as accurate on hundreds of factory cars including all my own, but most importantly it reflects the road data most accurately of all. That last comment is what I care about most of all, as all cars live on the road, not the dyno.

9 Years and no deal on an S8

How does this view look?

Before


After

Hello Jay

Longtime, i heard you been a busy lad . We need to catch up sometime soon...

Yes, got a proper deal on S80 mate, thanks.

Assumed wrong again im affraid.

Had the boost profile set that way, didn't want 2.15bar landing on my lap so early. Running out of gearboxes fast...HELP!

At least hit the apex of the corner

Hairpin actually old boy!

Get in touch with JDM in Carlise to help get your idle map right.

Now the afr graphs are up, whats your opinion?

Well in fairness I know very little on this subject, or anything mechanical for that matter. Having sold my Motec in favor of the factory ecu, my interest lies in the various statements made about the factory ecu not being up to the job of mapping "big power" cars.

I therefore imagined that the AFR readings from Biggenz car (if on a factory ecu) would be all over the place in relation to your stand alone unit.

Looking at the two sets of AFR readings in connection with your AFR table at the bottom, I am not sure I can see where the problems caused by the factory ecu (in this area)are. Perhaps you could point them out?

Revs Barbz Biggenz
3,000 12.6 14.0
3,500 13.2 14.0
4,000 13.0 13.5
4,500 13.0 13.0
5,000 11.2 12.0
5,500 11.8 11.5
6,000 12.0 12.4
6,500 12.0 12.6
7,000 N/A 12.5
7,500 N/A 12.3


Air/fuel mixture and characteristics

6.0 rich burn limit (fully warm engine)
9.0/10.0 black smoke/low power
11.5 approx rich best torque at wide-open throttle
12.0 safe best power at wide-open throttle
13.3 approx lean best torque
14.6 stoichiometric AFR (chemically ideal) <-- mean just enough fuel and air
15.5 lean cruise
16.5 usual best economy

I now see why you and Flea were hassling me to put up my graphs.

Lambda Efficiency Curve here

I prefer you use lambda as the target, as the stoichiometric ratio is different for different fuels. e.g. Tesco 99 has 5% ethanol, bringing the stoichiometric A/F ratio down to 14.358:1 (from 14.64) and BEST POWER 0.86 lambda becomes an AFR 12.348:1 (down from 12.59:1)

Lambda 0.82 gives best knock resistance as it produces the fastest flame speed. On regular petrol that is an AFR of 12.005 and on Tesco 99 11.774:1

If you map using Lambda as the target for closed loop trimming (if the ecu permits this) you will always get the right A/F ratio, whatever fuel you have in the tank...

Fair comment Dave.

Keeping it short, my 2 years experience of the fc oem ecu at 500bhp+. A mixed bag really, the Good, the Bad and the Ugly. Time to move on...


Lets just say, sometimes optimising enhancements are needed to arrive at the desired point.



Biggenz's Coupe is a very unique platform at every level and Afr profiles on the day were near perfect

In regards to fleas Afr table comparision above, there are some slight variation in data on mine, however, the JDM logs are near perfect. My afr calibrations were achieved by wideband logs taken from downpipe and not piece of tube stuck in the tailpipe (only if calibrated correctly).
Note, tailpipe readings can generally give inconsistant afr values.

Thanks Barbz. I should point out that the AFR table was nothing to do with Flea, I simply read the two graphs and noted the readings.

My interest is purely personal as my car will be mapped on the factory ecu within the next few weeks.

Pero you drama queen, I have asked to see everybodys graphs as it shows the full picture rather headline snapshots. Why wouldn't you put the graphs up??

You have lost me there.

I am just trying to get the best result having already spent......Well you know yourself don't you.

My heart is mostly mended. I spent the day with Barbz being educated whilst the Scottie was undertaking some minor cardiac surgery. My jaw bones were most entertained whilst sorting out the boost and AFR on the A3, and my right foot was equally entertained on the drive home once I'd got past the road works on the M25.

Just need a boost controller now to complete the package, but I'll give the rollers a miss for the time being. Barbz, legend as usual ; many thanks!!

Tim

Your welcome Dave,

I hope it works well for you in the end.

Consider this, 2 years worth of R&D was done on mine which opened the doors to the 500hp club.

But you don't have 500bhp Barbz?

On my dyno it has!

... is that the A3?

Haha.

I told you I was just being lazy and finally got round to it.

DLT mentioned the AFRs and ECUs, so I have compiled a few graphs of Barbz's car as it has been on Surrey RR more than any other.

This is Barbz's last Surrey RR graph with the 2.4 before his engine spun number three big end bearing. Same turbo as the current 2 litre setup with 1.45bar, mapped by me on the factory Bosch ECU.



If we overlay the torque and BHP curves we can see the difference between the old and new set-ups.



As for the air fuel ratios, well over the last couple of years I have mapped Barbz's car on a few different setups and turbos, all of which have been on Surrey RR's dyno.

Jan 2011 - GT3076R turbo @ 1.3bar


March 2011 - GT3076R turbo @ 1.3bar


May 2011 - GT3076R turbo @ 1.3bar


December 2011 - GTX3076R turbo @ 1.45bar

^^^I am really confused now. So how is this worse than the current setup on the stand alone??

If you are talking about the power and torque curves that would probably be down to the differing displacement.

I was referring to afr

Hopefully Dave you'll never have to go through what some of the high powered boys did.
Maybe St. John has learned from his mistakes.

Congrats on all the results!

What was the issue running the standard ecu?

I'm sorry?? Which big powered boys, what mistakes?

Actually don't bother replying, I couldn't care for all this anymore. The evidence is there, not my evidence either.

Fuelling Jan 2011 looks great.. Fuelling May 2011 looks naff - what went wrong?

Naff??? Take a look again???

Sorry flea Didnt mean any offence,just hoping Daves car goes ok.

Well, if you can't see the problem, maybe that's the problem!

Indeed, so I will defer to you.

Please explain

Thanks John.

I don't know what problems you speak of, however I have had my share with this car in fairness. Having to pay for a full rebuild and the replacement of the forged internals being the main one.

I don't know the exact reason for this just yet, but Leighton has a video from when the engine was stripped down which apparently makes interesting viewing.

Sorry which one was great and which one was naff??

You tell me - they can't BOTH be spot on... So which one do you consider you got best?

Peak variance is 8% - that's quite a lot...

p.s. in May I see the richest is <11.6 between 5900 and 6200 - or am I reading the graph wrong?

That would be interesting as Barbz has videos of it being built.I guess any engines only as strong as the air and fuel mix.
Shame as its still the quickest engine down Santa pod.


Looking forward to seeing the results as this will be the best 2.4 ever.

Be nice to compare it with my graphs.

You and me both! Unfortunately the purse strings have had to be pulled in a bit due to having 2 hefty mortgages (long storey). This has meant I have had to compromise in certain areas like wastegate, manifold and exhaust.

It's a shame, but I don't think your top spot will be challenged

Very very busy, no time to come on here, even to sell my own engine

Charlie mentioned that he had a Coupe day so though id have a nose about.

Now you know i mean S8 and NOT S80

Please drop me a PM with your number and we'd catch up. Nice work on the car BTW must be brutal!

The silence is deafening....

Indeed, although if you haven't figured it out yet then I fear you may end up permanently deaf.

Well I can't see how they can both be right on the same engine... if I could figure out what you are saying I wouldn't ask for an explanation.



and my ears are definitely able to hear at normal sound levels...

Well that's the rub of it, you don't see, you don't understand. If you can't figure it out without my help, then clearly you are not in a position to comment. Perhaps next time you'll think again before declaring something is "naff".

I'm no video expert, or youtube premium user, but here are some videos of the day.

Barbz on the rollers.

Pero on the rollers.

and to top it off experience the might of the lowest powered Coupe on the day...

My Coupe on the rollers.

<Moderator>Can you please keep the handbags off this thread.</moderator>

Not aimed at you Chris.

Been a bit blase about power figures over the last couple of years and i must admit those are stonking HP figures at such low boost levels, on Heartbreaker also.

I miss my 2.4 even more now!

Maybe its time to make a come back, bigger and badder?

All runs were done in 3rd gear also.
Did do May's run in 4th to see what the fuss was all about, so i left it in 3rd

Fueling also becomes richer in the higher gears especially on the road, 4th gear onwards.

Oh yes i do .

Excellent bit of kit

Will be doing some stuff with this in March. .

Nissan GTR R35 application is AWESOME.

Do you remember how many wheel HP & wheel lbft it did?

Chaps,

I spoke with Phil Ward recently and he assured me he is going to run with the Rolling Road day. He said the format will be a supplement of a feature on his own 20VT and will focus on Barbz, Peros and Jacks cars.

He wants a short piece from the three of you listing all your mods and a brief history about the car, when you bought it, what it's like to drive, how long you've had it etc.

I'll be sending the three of you a PM with this request as well to be sure you read it!

He was hoping to go to print before Brooklands, but said that may not happen.

Chris

Absolutely amazing news, Chris!
I have just replied to your PM with my story and am looking forward to reading the article

I have had an Email from Phil at Auto Italia today telling me the 4 page feature will run in the July issue of AI out on 6th June. It will feature his Coupe as well as Barbz, Pero and Jack's.

Eyes peeled on the 6th June!