My 16vt on the RR, 630cc injectors & FC chip

Well after my last trip to the RR I found I had maxed out the flow of my standard 384cc injectors, at an indicated 250bhp (209wbhp) so decided a swap to 630cc was needed, I was really copying Vas and Nickd with doing this, and I knew Nickd had got his car mapped by flea, with a similar build to 305bhp, 290ft/lbs so there was a opportunity for a bit of distant mapping.

I have always used the same dyno, Dyno dyamics, from where after fitting a 3" exhaust, cams, FMIC, mitsi 16G compressor and evocars chip I made 180bhp at the wheels about a year ago.

On this trip it was on a t04e 50trim with still the .48 hotside and have added a tubular manifold. On this trip I made 243bhp at the wheels and 290ft/lbs of torque at 1.4bar. I have a SARD motorsport fuel pump which holds flow better than the Walbro at high boost and seems to have made fuelling was a bit rich -.

Max exhaust temp I saw on the dyno was 840c, and outside temp was around 21c

Power and torque



boost and fuel



I also tried running over 1.5bar on the 1.5map sensor the 16V has, my turbo will easily flow 1.5 bar to red line and I can now finally report that it does not work, it appears the ECU cuts the fuel to the engine when the MAP sensor goes out of range

fuel and boost over 1.5 bar



This particular dyno I would say requires a 20% addition for transmission loss so that puts the result around 300bhp, and torque near identical to NickDs, so the two 16V's on 630cc injectors have made very similar numbers mine through .2bar more boost and Nick has headwork (mine has none).

An intersting point is both Nick and I run the T3 .48a/r hotside (maybe the same as a .63 t28?), and our peak power is generally around 5500rpm, I feel pretty confident if I went to the .63a/r T3, power would be up quite a bit as I suspect it is choking the power at higher revs.

given that I am running standard rods and pistons though big revs over the factory red line of 6500rpm isn't likely the best idea.

Anyway a revised chip is on it way from Flea to correct the fueling and so a re-test will be coming soon.

So far a good move in the right direction, up 35bhp with the 630cc injectors as it gives the fuel needed for higher boost. As always Leighton's serice has been excellent and with a bit of tweaking a few more BHP should be released

Your boost held extremely well mate! 24 psi right till the run finished! Mine tails of to 16/17 psi by 6000 revs! Think i've found the reason behind this anyway.... A 1cm whole in my manifold where tubes meet the flangd! So i'm very confident of more power once that hole is plugged, as my power stayed constant all the way to redline so no doubt i'll make more peak power if boost holds better? Gonna be a few weeks before i'm up and running again tho! By the way... 24 psi i surely over 1.5 bar??? Nick....

What boost controller do you use and why is there a big dip on the power/torque curve (red curve)?

I use greddy Profec E-01, this is the "big brother" to the profec B, and no it isn't mounted on the dash. not "too fast, too furios" but you have to remember I run an external wastegate which gives very good boost control generally compared to an internal gate, the dip in power, i'm not sure (maybe Flea will answer) I either just touched the boost cut (possible) or the fueling went a bit off, not really sure to be honest



Nick, I tried a run at 25psi (the higher boost graph above) and you can see the fuel got cut so I couldn't run that much, we will have to go to those cosworth Map sensors if we want to go up there, but could be worth it given the extra power it was making and the fact the 20vt guys seem to run up to 1.9bar these days and we need to keep up

The drop in torque, and subsequently power, is related to the fueling running too rich at the same point.

We shall see what v2 produces

Well back on the dyno again yesterday with the fueling ajusted by leighton so it stayed at 11:1 to red line, power once again peaked at 242.7 BHP ATW not shown on this graph at 23psi



and power and torque were the same also



But it did show up what we thought was interesting

Peak power is at 5000rpm or just over and the curve makes to distinct lines, normally with skylines/hondas etc the power continues to rise sharply to well beyond this level.

Tried to show it here, its always about 5200rpm regardless of boost, we think it is the restrictive .48a/r turbine but if that was the case would the power not keep rising at lower boost levels longer as the exhaust flow would be lower and the peak power would move up slightly? or given the relationship between boost pressure and back pressure maybe this is point where backpressure on the turbine is overcoming boost and the charge is getting poluted in the chamber, I have larger C&B cams from Barbz with more overlap than OE (road Min about the same as tipo)




I have got thoughts of trying a .63a/r turbine housing but it will be alot of stuffing around given my external gate setup (off the turbine snail)

it's all about "area under the curve" as they say so maybe giving up 500rpm spool will give me more power from 5500rpm to 6500rpm so the power band will be wider and greater?

Any thoughts?

5200rpm is where you have finished making peak torque. After that the torque begins to drop off as expected. Since HP is a measurement of torque against engine speed the rate at which your torque drops off as the engine speed increases is proportional thus giving you the “flat” BHP line. To find the reason for this you need to look into the VE and anything that affects VE. You want to try and slow down the rate at which torque drops off as you reach further up the rpm range.

I don't think it is a restriction in the exhaust system as the boost doesn’t drop off towards redline. High EGT’s will be a good indicator of this. The pressure needs to engulfed by the cylinder head and with engine speed increasing it has less time to do so, I think in the quest for more power and a more “common” BHP curve you will need to do some port work to the cylinder head and possibly look into larger valve sizing.

You say you have C&B cams, what are the specs on them and how much overlap are you running?

These are the cam specs i'm tpld by Barbz

Make Lancia
Model DELTA 2000 Turbo 16v
Camshafts codes LD16.099.246S (1)
LD16.084.238S (1)

Application Road min
Cam lift IN 9.9
Cam lift EX 8.4
Duration 246°/238°
Timing 13°-53° / 49°-9°
Lobe center angles 110°
Valve lift TDC 0.4 / 0.5
Clearance 0.40 / 0.50

Compared to OE

Cam lift IN 8.4
Cam lift EX 7.5
Inlet opens before BTDC 8 °
Inlet Closes ABDC 35°
Exhaus opens BBDC 30°
Exhaust Closes ATDC 0°

I agree that the problem is not a restriction with the exhaust system


Are you still running STD C/R?

The reason I ask is if so with the C&B cams your dynamic C/R will now be lower

with this in mind you normally can be more aggressive with the ignition timing, Flea would you be able to elaborate on the ignition timing compared to the standard setup?

I may be a mile off here but it may be down to a conservative ignition advance higher up in the rev range

Flea will know more about this than me so it would be nice to have your view on this

It is an interesting one this as both Nick and Paul have the same torque curve and power delivery. There is probably another 10bhp to be found from the current setup if I was mapping it in real time, but I am confident that it is pretty much where it needs to be now.

The ignition timing is quite advanced, certainly a lot more than standard. I have played it slightly safer than Nick's car for obvious reasons i.e. I'm not there tuning it! I should note the 16vt will probably take a little more timing than the average 20vt and is easier to reach MBT, most likely due to the lower CR.

What is MBT? I'm with trickymex on his comments regarding cr using the wossner pistons, they deffo lower the compression....?? Think i'll be back down to flea in the near future anyways, as i now believe that when leighton mapped mine there was a substantial hole in my manifold! Thats been sorted now and just has to be put back on car, i believe/hope that my boost will hold as saints does to red line, instead of tailing off dramatically!? ....nick

I think your spot with playing it safe if you cannot live map it, there is probaly a bit to gain there but it's not safe unless you are there to monitor it

Thanks guys, so if the problem is not in the exhaust side, if was looking to find an additional say 50bhp for arguments stake where would I start - not a bigger turbo? but rather headwork I am guessing?

I ask as Nick D has the headwork already but his delivery is the same as mine, which makes me wonder if it is something else?

cheers
Paul

Have you a flow map for your specific turbo?

I have used t34 turbos on cossies before and don't actually rate them in comparison to a modern GT series garrett

you may not be able to get where you want with this turbo, what are the results that other people are getting with this turbo?

Here is what I have been told as a Guide for t34's

t34.48 - 340 ish bhp
t34.55 - 360 ish bhp
t34.63 - 390 ish bhp
t4 - 380/90 upwards to 550 ish

these are all approximate and are figures based on them being fitted to a cosworth, does this sound about right for what people are getting on there coops?

Ricky

Here is the compressor map for my turbo mapped for a 2l 4 cylinder, it is a T04e 50 trim, my turbine side is also stage 2

It is over 400bhp capable at 7000rpm based on 40 lbs/min

I doubt you would ever get it to hold 40psi but most cossies with this turbo seem to be making around the 300-350bhp mark and all but one dyno print out I can find all make peak power at about 5300 rpm and one peaked at 6000rpm

40psi??!! wake up Rick you have to subtract 14.7 from that. 2.5Bar is really 1.5Bar - pressure drop.

I wasn't quite sure on that, Yeah, that map is 1.5bar real world (with 1 bar subtracted for absolute pressure adjustment) at 7000rpm is 40lbs/min

The map is in absolutes as J pointed out, and my turbo can hold 1.5bar to red line no problem as the dyno printout shows

Which c&b cams are you using saint! Think there are 2 fast road sets to choose from... Mine are max fast road.... There is also a slightly milder fast road set! My peak power occured at 5800 then stayed pretty flat even tho boost tailed of rapidly so i'm thinking there is a good chance of later peak power if boost holds aswell as yours.... If boost holds yet peak power remains in the same place the exhaust side of turbo simply has to be the restriction..... RIGHT??.... Nick...

Road min 9.9 8.4 246°/238° 110°/110° 13°/53°-49°/9° 0.4/0.5 0.40/0.50
Road medium 10.3 8.4 250°/238° 110°/110° 15°/55°-49°/9° 0.9/0.5 0.40/0.50
Road max 10.4 8.3 260°/254° 110°/110° 20°/60°-52°/12° 1.7/0.9 0.30/0.40
Race min 10.9 8.8 276°/250° 108°/105° 30°/66°-50°/20° 2.1/1.5 0.35/0.40

Mine are road min, thought looking at the above "road med" are pretty similar

At 9.9mm lift on the intake I think they are pretty similar to tipo N/A profile

Ha ha, yeah, I can't open that flow map on my iPhone for some reason, I was just going by what saint said and not quite understanding.

Saint: Hi, did you adjust the cam timing on the dyno? Or did you just fit them to the manufacturers spec?

Just fitted them to OE specs, I don't have adjustable cams wheels so just mounted them up and timied them to OE marks

cheers

Seems disappointing that power still tails off after 5500 rpm. I'll bet money that there's extra power to be had if you advance the cam timing on the dyno.

Maybe we can all confirm the turbo is just too small?

I'm not sure what ignition advance there is in the NickD and Paul chip but it has to be some mixture of what Vas and myself have been using/modifying.
unless the CR is altered an engine needs what it needs. It's pretty good already.
I have been doing a LOT of ignition advance changes lately and all i seem to be doing is retarding (the ignition advance)

I got hold of spark plugs with integrated pressure sensors via my previous company, they are expensive... I have used these to see where maximum combustion occurs.
Theoretically you want the full combustion pressure 14 degrees ATDC
Imagine: you ignite the mixture X degrees before TDC (ignition advance) you want full combustion peak pressure 14° ATDC
If you put in let's say 10° of ignition advance it means the mixture takes 24° till full CPP.

I have also been using a fairely accurate knock detection tool: http://www.phormula.co.uk/KnockMonitor-KS-4.aspx
And i use the EGT readings in combination with these tools.
On the contrary as many people thing you WANT to seel elevated EGT temperatures. I go to 930°C quit easily.
I've also noticed, that if your EGT's start going down dramatically like 100°C+ it's means you have knock. Most people think it's the opposite.

then i also looked at the plugs after a WOT test, color is ok, 11,5 AFR and ignition timing strap is right in the ground wire bend.

So all of this indicated the ingition advance most of us use for the 16Vt is actually ok.

Again be carefull with the ignition advance, the delta has slow burning combustion chambers you need a lot of advance at the expense of an increased risk for detonation.
In that aspect the 16Vt engine is not the best for tuning.

Time for a bigger turbine housing I guess.

My temps only seem to max out at 840c, measured at the collector on the manifold.

Those are pretty good EGT values i'd say, i'm at 930°C in 4th gear redline, which is still acceptable.

Also loose the balance shafts you'll make more power without them.

Paul, take out your EGT and fit a boost gauge. Good project for a weekend! Plot torque vs manifold pressure. I think you'll find manifold pressure going through the roof after 5500 rpm in correlation with the torque curve.