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Re: Bosch Injectors [Re: clanger] #1635955
04/10/2019 09:27
04/10/2019 09:27
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Lightwater, Surrey, UK
DaveG Online content
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Graham have you got a spare lambda sensor to try? If you have an ACR you could check the lambda reading?


1996 Portofino 20vt & 2000 Pearl White Plus
1985½ & 2016 2017 Fiat 124 Spider + XF Sportbrake
Re: Bosch Injectors [Re: Grigio] #1635956
04/10/2019 10:36
04/10/2019 10:36
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Originally Posted by Grigio
[What's it like on oil? Is a hotter set of plugs an option? Although that won't help with emissions.


I've only done a few hundred miles in last year but it's not using much. Less than my last coupe over last few thousand miles anyway. It's not smoking so I don't think it's burning much oil, although apparently enough to kill the emissions. I thought about trying hotter plugs but they're not fouled enough to cause a misfire and yeah, it wouldn't help the emission anyway.

Dave - yeah I thought about that and checked last night. On the ACR4 the O2 reading was just stuck around 850mv (moving maybe a few mv occasionally). I had another lambda sensor from a box of random parts I bought, no idea if it was even working but tried it anyway and it gave similar results, but this time stuck around 760mv. So both reading constantly rich.I even tried pulling a vacuum hose off from rear of plenum which should make it go lean but O2 reading only dropped 5mv or so, so clearly something very wrong.

I did have that last NGK lambda sensor fail after only a few thousand miles so it's now on a genuine Bosch sensor... strange there's no movement from either sensor so maybe both these Bosch sensors are dead as well. I'll order a new Bosch sensor just to try it, but suspect it'll be stuck at rich as well.

You'd think if the sensor was stuck showing rich that the ECU would lean out in response, so was kinda hoping the sensor might be stuck showing lean causing the fuelling to go rich.

I replaced the ECU and airflow meter last night as well, with no difference... still just stuck on rich reading. I've got a spare fuel pressure regulator so will try that when the new lambda sensor arrives next week, also with the original Bosch injectors too. All other readings on the ACR4 looked fine... intake air temp, coolant temp, airflow, battery etc.

Is it really possible that a little oil passing the rings would cause fuelling to be stuck at very rich?

Re: Bosch Injectors [Re: clanger] #1635959
04/10/2019 13:19
04/10/2019 13:19
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I don't think its an oil issue causing it. The issue existed before but seems to be exacerbated by the new Bosch injectors which do have the ability to provide lots more fuel if the fuel pressure is raised beyond 3 bar. Can you test the fuel pressure? It is a common factor and does not throw a code.

My understanding of the Lambda system is it only corrects within certain limits, could the sensor be reporting rich but it is so far rich the ECU has run out of compensation factor? There is a calculation for checking if the CO reading at the MOT corresponds to the Lambda reading and if it does the system is in closed loop and working;

Lambda value = (14.5-(CO% x 0.37))/ 14.6

Its accurate to within a very small margin, I checked it on my other car and it seems to work. Might be worth plugging your CO reading in and see if it corresponds.

Only other thing is coolant temp sender putting it on constant 'choke' but you've ruled that out.

Re: Bosch Injectors [Re: clanger] #1635960
04/10/2019 13:48
04/10/2019 13:48
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I don't have anything to measure the fuel pressure but I have a spare fuel pressure regulator I can swap in to try. Maybe the regulator isn't dropping below 3 bar as it should with intake vacuum.

Yes there's a limited amount that the ECU can reduce fuelling... the ACR4 was showing injector timing down at about 2ms to 2.5ms , I'm not sure if that's as low as it can go though.

Your formula seems to near enough match the emissions test fail readings :
Fast Idle test : CO=3.95%, HC 135ppm, Lambda=0.904
2nd Fast idle test : CO=5.36%, HC 291ppm, Lambda=0.861

For a pass CO must be <0.3%, HC <200ppm and Lambda between 0.97 and 1.03

Those lambda readings aren't the same as what the ACR4 shows though, the diagnostics show the actual voltage reading (between 0 to 1v) from the sensor, That should be around 0.5v for perfect fuelling, above 0.5v is rich and below 0.5v is lean.

Re: Bosch Injectors [Re: clanger] #1635966
04/10/2019 20:57
04/10/2019 20:57
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OK, some progress. laugh It's the injectors!

I put the Bosch injectors back in and the lambda reading is now bouncing up and down between about 150mv and 850mv just as it should. Of course no guarantee it'll pass the emissions test but at least it's not running constantly super rich now. And pulling off the crankcase ventilation hose on back of plenum made it run lean on the O2 readings as you'd expect, whereas with the other injectors it just stayed constantly rich.

When I pulled out the fuel rail complete with the Finjector injectors I could smell the petrol just out of the intake manifold and off the injector tips, never had that with the Bosch injectors before.

Clanger, I'd get your emissions tested ASAP... my coupe felt OK with these injectors so you may not notice the over-fuelling, but if yours are doing the same as mine then it won't be doing the engine any good at all.

I'll contact Finjector and see if they'll take these back for a refund.

Re: Bosch Injectors [Re: clanger] #1635967
04/10/2019 21:02
04/10/2019 21:02
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That's a difficult assumption, Graham - it's not the absolute voltage from a (narrow band) lambda sensor such as the coupe's, but the ratio of high to low *times* as the ECU tries to compensate in closed loop to keep the mix stoichiometric.

I'm no expert on the 20 ECU, but I'm pretty sure that if it were so far out as to be ten times rich it would be showing an injector light. Long shot - failed catalytic converter? If there's no change on the sensor voltage, or it's changing too slowly, the ECU shows an error.

Other things that might make things run rich:

- temperature is cold (thermostat fault) so ECU remains in start enrichment
- temperature sensor says its cold, even if not, same fault
- blocked air filter
- wrong fuel pressure
- air flow meter lying (and/or air leaks)
- throttle position sensor confused

Snag is, there are so many feedback loops it's hard to see where to start...

Neil


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Re: Bosch Injectors [Re: clanger] #1635968
04/10/2019 21:03
04/10/2019 21:03
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Posts crossed, Graham... laugh

Neil


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Re: Bosch Injectors [Re: barnacle] #1635969
04/10/2019 21:16
04/10/2019 21:16
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Originally Posted by barnacle
Posts crossed, Graham... laugh

Neil


No probs, I appreciate the comments anyway. smile

For the 20v ECU it seems to only flag lambda sensor errors for short (over 1.099v) or open (below 0.0879v) circuit, or voltage stuck between 0.4v and 0.518v for more than 2.5 seconds. So apparently if it's stuck very rich but not into short circuit, or very lean but not into open circuit, it doesn't show an error.

Re: Bosch Injectors [Re: clanger] #1635972
05/10/2019 09:27
05/10/2019 09:27
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I'm pleased you have a resolution Graham.

The situation you describe when taking out the new Bosch EV14's is exactly the same as I had with the original Bosch EV1's - they were dripping petrol when removed, however it passed the MOT cleanly with them last March!

As I said before, I've got a car that now starts and runs like a new motor with the EV14's, clean plugs and tail pipe, no petrol smells, the complete opposite of before. I just can't believe mine is running that rich.

I'm not going to be using it between now and March (roads too filthy) so will leave them in and see what result I get at the test.

Re: Bosch Injectors [Re: clanger] #1635975
05/10/2019 12:44
05/10/2019 12:44
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I wonder if they possibly sent me the wrong injectors... does this calibration chart look the same as yours?

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inject.jpg (145 downloads)
Re: Bosch Injectors [Re: clanger] #1635976
05/10/2019 14:13
05/10/2019 14:13
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Yes, mine are just one point less across the board on the dynamic flow figure.

I still cannot see why you have a lambda reading that sticks voltage high or rich when you put them in and yet I see the AFR gauge (which I believe just reads the voltage straight off the lambda probe) bouncing around on tickover and constant throttle and going full rich on boost exactly as it did with the old EV1's

Re: Bosch Injectors [Re: clanger] #1635995
07/10/2019 07:51
07/10/2019 07:51
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Graham, I'm also using the EV14's and as Clanger's position, it is running fine with no petrol smell and considerably less soot on the tailpipe. I will plug in the ACR and see what the lambda readings are for the sake of comparison.

My calibration chart has similar readings to yours with only 1-2ml variance between yours and mine.

Last edited by Kelv27; 07/10/2019 07:55.


Re: Bosch Injectors [Re: clanger] #1636025
08/10/2019 01:55
08/10/2019 01:55
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I’ve checked my lambda readings and it’s swinging between 100mV and 700mV promptly...so would appear quite normal?



Re: Bosch Injectors [Re: clanger] #1636026
08/10/2019 09:13
08/10/2019 09:13
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I got a reply from Finjector and it's not good...

They say the dynamic flow is bigger for the new injectors (0280158124) compared to the original Bosch injectors (0280150450) :

0280150450 q-dyn with 300 kPa, ti 2,5 ms (g/1000 Imp.) is 5,53
0280158124 q-dyn with 300 kPa, ti 2,5 ms (g/1000 Imp.) is 8,05

These new ones are flowing over 45% more than the original Bosch injectors, so it's no wonder it was running so rich.

They say the ECU needs to be remapped before using these new injectors and they won't accept a return because they've been used, even if only for 3 miles!

Does the Finjector link on 1st page go to the wrong injectors, or do you guys running them have a re-mapped ECU that handles the higher flow? Or have they changed the spec since you got them or something?

Re: Bosch Injectors [Re: clanger] #1636033
08/10/2019 17:27
08/10/2019 17:27
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I am aware that they can definitely flow more than the standard EV1’s but I had the impression that the ECU would be controlling it’s output.

I am currently running the EV14’s with your Gtec2, Graham.
Even if they are flowing significantly more at a given opening time and pressure, still doesn’t quite answer why our lambda readings (with the EV14) are different.

I doubt Finjector changed the spec of the injectors as your purchase date is only 10 days or so before mine.



Re: Bosch Injectors [Re: clanger] #1636034
08/10/2019 18:28
08/10/2019 18:28
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Lightwater, Surrey, UK
DaveG Online content
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Without a remap, how will the ECU know that you have installed new higher flow injectors? Does the ECU actively try to change injector durations to control lambda? What else can it do? But maybe if the flow capability is so much more, maybe its outside the range that the ECU can change?

Are you sure you both have the identical same new injectors 0280158124?

Can you get a remap Graham, or can you produce a new Gtec3 wink


1996 Portofino 20vt & 2000 Pearl White Plus
1985½ & 2016 2017 Fiat 124 Spider + XF Sportbrake
Re: Bosch Injectors [Re: clanger] #1636036
08/10/2019 20:01
08/10/2019 20:01
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I understood from the previous owner that my car is stock wrt changes to fueling maps etc.

It is important to restate that this is a Bosch injector, NOT Finjector, they are are a Bosch distributor. If Bosch chose to modify the parameters of the injector I firmly believe (having worked extensively with the Germans) they would simply create a new product i.e. 0280 xxx xxx.

As Kelv27, I think that although these injectors have the potential to flow a lot more fuel, a combination of improved injector resolution (or accuracy if one prefers) and the close loop adaptability of the FI system (I don't know the limits of this and as much as I try I can't find the detail) means that they do work providing everything else is functioning correctly. How can Kelv27 and I see a functioning closed loop?

For what its worth I think you have a wider underlying fueling problem Graham. The clue being your car was a marginal pass for emissions on last years MOT - mine passed cleanly even with the leaking old AV1's. I would even go as far to stick my neck out and say your old EV1 injectors are OK. Barnacle touched on it a few posts ago. What ever it is, its causing the EV1's to over fuel and the new EV14's to massively do so to the extent that closed loop cannot be attained.

Re: Bosch Injectors [Re: clanger] #1636040
08/10/2019 21:02
08/10/2019 21:02
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Originally Posted by DaveG
Without a remap, how will the ECU know that you have installed new higher flow injectors?


Exactly.

If we accept what Finjector say that these new injectors flow 45% higher than the original ones then it's simply not possible for them to be a suitable replacement at "open loop" full throttle fuelling.

Even if somehow my coupe isn't able to adjust "closed loop" idle and part throttle fuelling as the 2 other coupes apparently are, the "open loop" full throttle fuelling is based only on preset maps (the lambda is ignored at full throttle) so couldn't possibly be OK without remapping the ECU to account for the extra fuel.

Originally Posted by clanger
As Kelv27, I think that although these injectors have the potential to flow a lot more fuel"


That doesn't make sense though. Either they are a suitable replacement for the standard injectors at "open loop" full throttle (where lambda readings are ignored and fuelling is based solely on preset maps), in which case they must flow a very similar or identical amount of fuel... or they flow a higher amount of fuel in which case they can't possibly be a suitable replacement for the standard injectors at "open loop" full throttle.They can't simultaneously be flowing more and the same at once, it has to be one or the other.

Quote
I would even go as far to stick my neck out and say your old EV1 injectors are OK


I think they are as well.

Quote
What ever it is, its causing the EV1's to over fuel


I don't think there's any evidence of that. I didn't get an emissions certificate last MOT so I have no idea what the actual figures were. It was tested cold though, so it could be as simple as that, as we know coupes like to be hot for an emissions test.

I won't know for sure until I take it back for an MOT with the standard injectors re-installed, which judging by the weather may be next spring, if I haven't broken or scrapped it by then.

Re: Bosch Injectors [Re: GrahamL] #1636050
09/10/2019 06:01
09/10/2019 06:01
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Originally Posted by GrahamL


Originally Posted by clanger
As Kelv27, I think that although these injectors have the potential to flow a lot more fuel"


That doesn't make sense though. Either they are a suitable replacement for the standard injectors at "open loop" full throttle (where lambda readings are ignored and fuelling is based solely on preset maps), in which case they must flow a very similar or identical amount of fuel... or they flow a higher amount of fuel in which case they can't possibly be a suitable replacement for the standard injectors at "open loop" full throttle.They can't simultaneously be flowing more and the same at once, it has to be one or the other.



To clarify, I was referring to when operating at higher fuel pressures i.e your FPR potentially being at fault. I was too subtle.

Re: Bosch Injectors [Re: clanger] #1636056
09/10/2019 14:34
09/10/2019 14:34
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Originally Posted by clanger
To clarify, I was referring to when operating at higher fuel pressures i.e your FPR potentially being at fault.


Yes, they'd flow more at higher pressure but so would the standard injectors.

Anyways, personally I think these injectors need an ECU re-map to work properly in the coupe, but if anyone wants to try them out drop me a PM and I'll sell them for half the price I paid for them, having done 3 miles.

Re: Bosch Injectors [Re: clanger] #1636106
11/10/2019 17:41
11/10/2019 17:41
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Couple of points: any injector system is specified to work at a specific pressure; the job of the pressure regulator is to maintain the pressure at a fixed amount (2.5 bar rings a bell for the 20, but don't quote me!) above the current manifold pressure. The idea is that the injector then delivers the same amount of fuel for the same injector pulse length.

Second point is that the ECU does learn and adjusts its base values so that even the open-loop fuelling should be correct (i.e. it learns the offset during closed loop, but applies it throughout the range). That said, I'd be *very* surprised if it could cope with a 45% over-flow on either open or closed loop - fixing that will require a remap.


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Re: Bosch Injectors [Re: barnacle] #1636114
12/10/2019 08:31
12/10/2019 08:31
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Originally Posted by barnacle
That said, I'd be *very* surprised if it could cope with a 45% over-flow on either open or closed loop - fixing that will require a remap.


So what does a remap involve? Can the OEM ECU be reprogrammed or is it a replacement chip with custom settings burnt to it?


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Re: Bosch Injectors [Re: clanger] #1636135
13/10/2019 17:30
13/10/2019 17:30
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It will be a replacement chip. The EPROM holds both the software that the ECU executes and the maps that tell it how much fuel should be supplied at various standard settings, and those that tell it how to change.

I don't believe that there would be a need for new code - i.e. just the maps need to be changed - but it's rather dependent on how *little* the injectors will flow while still remaining controllable. From here, I'd have a word with Flea of this parish, but it's a bit of a trek from Tasmania!

Flea in the past has done both custom maps for tuned cars, and generic 'just make it a bit better' maps which will work with any coupe of the correct type.

Neil


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