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counter - rotating shaft removal #1643394
12/08/2020 06:19
12/08/2020 06:19
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 311
Italy, Reggio Emilia
hangar1138 Offline OP
Club member 1472
hangar1138  Offline OP
Club member 1472
Making a profit

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 311
Italy, Reggio Emilia
I spoke with a new garage for a probably engine rebuild soon.

The 70 year boy with a large experience of engine mods (as many people say..) suggested me when the engine will be out of car to remove the counter - rotating shaft moved by a chain connected to the oil pump. He told me that is only inertia for the engine and it will be only a little more noisy but it will gain rpm faster.

I'm little confused: is he right? is this a worth mod and above all is a reliable mod?

I dont want to give my actual opinon to not influence you.

thank you for the suggestion

Re: counter - rotating shaft removal [Re: hangar1138] #1643395
12/08/2020 06:30
12/08/2020 06:30
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,270
Staffordshire
Nigel Offline
Club Member 123
Nigel  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,270
Staffordshire
He is technically correct - when increasing revs, the engine has to accelerate all the parts that are connected to it - as well as the crank and pistons, you're looking at cams, flywheel, clutch, alternator, aircon compressor (if engaged), pumps, pulleys, belts and of course the balance shaft

However, the Coupe engine is not like a Lexus LFA that can go from tickover to the redline in a second - it's a fairly heavy turbo'd lump and you would probably find that there is something else that would affect the increase of revs more than the balance shaft (for example, turbo lag)

Sure, if you were building a race engine, you would do everything you can to improve response, but I'm guessing you're not building a race engine?

I doubt that noise would increase, but I would expect that you would feel the extra vibrations, especially if you are using uprated engine mounts.

I still have my balance shaft fitted and I'm not aware of any other big-power Coupes that have had theirs removed. I believe it is quite common on the 16VT though


[Linked Image]
Re: counter - rotating shaft removal [Re: hangar1138] #1643401
12/08/2020 11:15
12/08/2020 11:15
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,549
FCSS 01684 593187
Countrycruising Offline
Club Rep Europe, member 914
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I'd only suggest removing the balance shaft if the crank and associated connecting items are sent away to be professionally balanced.

Re: counter - rotating shaft removal [Re: hangar1138] #1643403
12/08/2020 12:06
12/08/2020 12:06
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,906
Pothole City
GrahamL Offline
Forum is my job
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Pothole City
The balance shaft is there to counteract the inherent imbalance in all straight 5 cylinder engines. If you really want to remove it I'd suggest the best method would be to fit a 6th cylinder to the engine, then the balance shaft would be unnecessary. smile

Re: counter - rotating shaft removal [Re: hangar1138] #1643415
12/08/2020 20:47
12/08/2020 20:47
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 13
Finland
mck16vt Offline
Newbie
mck16vt  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 13
Finland
I have removed balance shaft belt from my 16VT, and I have disabled balance shaft also from my MC´s.
Yes you might feel a little bit more vibrations.
I have not ever heard that any engine has been damaged because of that.

It does not balance any unbalanced parts inside motor!

Re: counter - rotating shaft removal [Re: hangar1138] #1643423
13/08/2020 07:39
13/08/2020 07:39
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 311
Italy, Reggio Emilia
hangar1138 Offline OP
Club member 1472
hangar1138  Offline OP
Club member 1472
Making a profit

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Posts: 311
Italy, Reggio Emilia
I agree with Nigel and GrahamL, Only straight 6 cylinder engine can prefectly stop 1st grade and 2nd grade inertia (if I remember correct from school).

@Nigel: if I will go for a engine rebuild (the head has been rebuild in 2019), would you suggest to replace std pulleys with ergal pulleys or also this mod is not worth the higher costs of the rebuild?

note: in june I bought a full 2.4 stilo engine for a ridiculous price but they asked me for a kidney for build a 2.4 turbo engine so now the project is abandoned and I rolled back to rebuild my actual 20VT engine

thank you guys for suggestions

Re: counter - rotating shaft removal [Re: hangar1138] #1643433
13/08/2020 10:23
13/08/2020 10:23
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,270
Staffordshire
Nigel Offline
Club Member 123
Nigel  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,270
Staffordshire
Originally Posted by hangar1138
@Nigel: if I will go for a engine rebuild (the head has been rebuild in 2019), would you suggest to replace std pulleys with ergal pulleys or also this mod is not worth the higher costs of the rebuild?


I have standard pulleys on my car - I struggle to see any real benefit in aftermarket cam pulleys, unless you want to play with cam timing on standard cams.

Spend your money on cams instead - they make quite a difference, although you'll probably struggle to find any now - Columbo & Bariani.


[Linked Image]
Re: counter - rotating shaft removal [Re: Nigel] #1643438
13/08/2020 11:00
13/08/2020 11:00
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,186
Sandhurst
Begbie Offline
Ex El Presidente
Begbie  Offline
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I AM a Coop

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,186
Sandhurst
Originally Posted by Nigel
[quote=hangar1138]Spend your money on cams instead - they make quite a difference, although you'll probably struggle to find any now - Columbo & Bariani.


I'd also be wary of the C&B cams now. Guy Croft had issues with them back in 2018 for the Lancia integrale 8v - link


Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: counter - rotating shaft removal [Re: hangar1138] #1643439
13/08/2020 11:22
13/08/2020 11:22
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 181
Czech republic
Honza Offline
On a journey
Honza  Offline
On a journey

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 181
Czech republic
balanca shafts removal is very easy job - I highly recommend it as u dont have to rotate with 5kg, u dont want second belt just next to timing belt and with shafts removed, u can notice higher oil pressure what is vital in 16vt, which suffers from low pressur due to various reasons...

there are kits around the internet with plugs and timing belt bearing support...

I have 3 engines when I dont rotate with balance shafts (1 only removed belt, 2 completelly removed shafts) - and dont´notice any discomfort... imagine, that in the era before delta/tipo were 2ltr engines without them and didn´t suffer from any noises/vibrations...

when deleting balance shafts, go for 22 or 25mm timing belt for more engine safety... this also highly increase engine reliability...

Last edited by Honza; 13/08/2020 11:27.

05 15.84s
06 14,79s
07 14,9s
09 14.4s
11 lot of things to do
.
.
17 back on the road smile and much stronger
Re: counter - rotating shaft removal [Re: Begbie] #1643461
13/08/2020 15:46
13/08/2020 15:46
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,270
Staffordshire
Nigel Offline
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Nigel  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 17,270
Staffordshire
Originally Posted by Begbie
Originally Posted by Nigel
[quote=hangar1138]Spend your money on cams instead - they make quite a difference, although you'll probably struggle to find any now - Columbo & Bariani.


I'd also be wary of the C&B cams now. Guy Croft had issues with them back in 2018 for the Lancia integrale 8v - link


Dead link, but I don't recall hearing any negatives on the 20VT cams that C&B produced. Mine have done a fairly hefty mileage now (150k+). Could it have been a dodgy batch of 16v / Integrale cams?


[Linked Image]
Re: counter - rotating shaft removal [Re: Nigel] #1643463
13/08/2020 16:55
13/08/2020 16:55
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,906
Pothole City
GrahamL Offline
Forum is my job
GrahamL  Offline
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Posts: 3,906
Pothole City
Originally Posted by Nigel
Dead link, but I don't recall hearing any negatives on the 20VT cams that C&B produced. Mine have done a fairly hefty mileage now (150k+). Could it have been a dodgy batch of 16v / Integrale cams?


Link is broken now for me too, but it worked earlier.

It was an extremely interesting horror story from 2018 about C&B cams for a 16vt disintegrating within 10 mins of starting the engine! It was found the cams hadn't been hardened, at all! C&B denied all responsibility but eventually sent a replacement set. Those were professionally tested by multiple independent experts and found by all to be the same as the first set, not hardened at all. Luckily they weren't fitted. C&B eventually pay out only a small % of the damage done, saying "if you don't like it take us to court".

Re: counter - rotating shaft removal [Re: GrahamL] #1643478
14/08/2020 07:42
14/08/2020 07:42
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,186
Sandhurst
Begbie Offline
Ex El Presidente
Begbie  Offline
Ex El Presidente
I AM a Coop

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,186
Sandhurst
Originally Posted by GrahamL
Originally Posted by Nigel
Dead link, but I don't recall hearing any negatives on the 20VT cams that C&B produced. Mine have done a fairly hefty mileage now (150k+). Could it have been a dodgy batch of 16v / Integrale cams?


Link is broken now for me too, but it worked earlier.

It was an extremely interesting horror story from 2018 about C&B cams for a 16vt disintegrating within 10 mins of starting the engine! It was found the cams hadn't been hardened, at all! C&B denied all responsibility but eventually sent a replacement set. Those were professionally tested by multiple independent experts and found by all to be the same as the first set, not hardened at all. Luckily they weren't fitted. C&B eventually pay out only a small % of the damage done, saying "if you don't like it take us to court".


Thanks Graham. Pretty much sums up what GC found and also that he will never use C&B again, which is definitely saying something.


Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: counter - rotating shaft removal [Re: hangar1138] #1643486
14/08/2020 13:34
14/08/2020 13:34
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,531
Glasgow,Near Florence..If only...
paul Offline
My life on the forum
paul  Offline
My life on the forum

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,531
Glasgow,Near Florence..If only...
Points to what must have been a bad batch of C & C cams then ? ,I'm not saying thats ok ,but a possibility ,had them in my coupe for over 10 years ,not had an issue ...


was Paul S,now just paul...Member since Oct 2000,Coupe may be FATALLY injured - :(oh no it's not smile
Re: counter - rotating shaft removal [Re: paul] #1643488
14/08/2020 14:33
14/08/2020 14:33
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,246
Essex
Trappy Offline
Club Member 1834
Trappy  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,246
Essex
Originally Posted by paul
Points to what must have been a bad batch of C & C cams then ? ,I'm not saying thats ok ,but a possibility ,had them in my coupe for over 10 years ,not had an issue ...


Or it points to the C&B cams produced for the 16vT engine...

Re: counter - rotating shaft removal [Re: hangar1138] #1643512
15/08/2020 05:40
15/08/2020 05:40
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 181
Czech republic
Honza Offline
On a journey
Honza  Offline
On a journey

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 181
Czech republic
if I remember well, it was 8VT... it changes nothing, I would never trust them again.. especially if they were not able to admit their error and with new set of cams with heat threatment will also pay rebuilt of damaged brand new, expensive engine...


05 15.84s
06 14,79s
07 14,9s
09 14.4s
11 lot of things to do
.
.
17 back on the road smile and much stronger
Re: counter - rotating shaft removal [Re: hangar1138] #1643573
17/08/2020 08:24
17/08/2020 08:24
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,186
Sandhurst
Begbie Offline
Ex El Presidente
Begbie  Offline
Ex El Presidente
I AM a Coop

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,186
Sandhurst
Bad batch or not, something changed with their process in 2018, so the ones that have cams from years ago are fine. Just highlighting that there is issues and do you want to chance an engine being destroyed in 10 mins from installing the cams?


Originally Posted by Jonny - After being taken out at Spa
Your car is Usain Bolt with wellies
Re: counter - rotating shaft removal [Re: Begbie] #1643584
17/08/2020 15:46
17/08/2020 15:46
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,156
Near Reading
JohnS Offline
I need some sleep
JohnS  Offline
I need some sleep

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,156
Near Reading
Hi guys, hope you're all well.

On my coupe's engine I had the balance shaft removed, as was said it was easy to do. There was a question about whether you should remove the chain because it isn't loaded up if the balance shaft isn't present


Former low boost hero - 616BHP@1.5 bar. 2.4 20VT RIP
Re: counter - rotating shaft removal [Re: JohnS] #1648738
15/02/2021 22:21
15/02/2021 22:21
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 24
Kent
Marea20v Offline
Newbie
Marea20v  Offline
Newbie

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 24
Kent
hi John ...
im lookimg at removing the balance shaft on my 20vt and have a few questions .....
do you know the process of removal
is it just a case of removing the shaft ??
are there any oil galleys to plug up or not ???

any help would be appreciated
many thanks


(Ink nero)Bravo HGT
(Sassi grey)Bravo HGT 20V Turbo
(Leader blue)Marea HLX

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