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Possible Brake concern? #1625846
09/10/2018 11:38
09/10/2018 11:38
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 58
Surrey
shaky20vt Offline OP
Reaping the fruits
shaky20vt  Offline OP
Reaping the fruits

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 58
Surrey
I know there is a great deal of knowledge on this forum and I have read some great threads over the years and it has helped me tremendously for which I am grateful.
I may or may not have an issue so I would really appreciate anyone's advise/help on this matter.
Here goes....On my 20vt I have had braided brake lines and the fluid changed several years ago (5.1 DOT) – I have EBC Grooved and dimpled discs with red stuff pads (both front and rear). When I brake at high speed hard the pedal seems to go further and further down before I actually get any bite (don’t get me wrong it does stop) but when I compare it to the other cars I drive it seems inadequate for the Brembo 4 pot callipers. I have checked the pads and they have 5mm left on them and the fluid level is fine too.
Any suggestions/thoughts?


Loving my ReMap 410bhp/358lbs
Re: Possible Brake concern? [Re: shaky20vt] #1625847
09/10/2018 11:48
09/10/2018 11:48
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,201
Turin 25th Anniversary trip!
DaveG Offline
Club Member 311
DaveG  Offline
Club Member 311
Forum is my life

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,201
Turin 25th Anniversary trip!
What's the history on the brembo calipers, have they ever been overhauled? When were the fluid and dust seals last replaced? have you tried bleeding the calipers? Did the pads need grinding down to fit past the guides? How even is the wear on the inner and outer pads? Do the pistons move freely (you'll need to remove the pads, easier to check with the brake disc removed too and the calipers bolted back in place, but be careful the caliper bolts don't strip the threads in the caliper if they've not been touched for a long time)

The fronts do most of the braking but don't forger the rears too, a good check is to feel (hold your hand near but don't touch) the rear discs to see if there's any heat in them after a good amount of braking, if not, and if the outer part the disc face is rusty, then chances are the rear brakes are not helping either.


1996 Portofino 20vt & 2000 Pearl White Plus
1985½ & 2016 2017 Fiat 124 Spider + XF Sportbrake
Re: Possible Brake concern? [Re: shaky20vt] #1625848
09/10/2018 12:02
09/10/2018 12:02
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 58
Surrey
shaky20vt Offline OP
Reaping the fruits
shaky20vt  Offline OP
Reaping the fruits

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 58
Surrey
Thank you for getting back so quickly - The callipers were overhauled just before Flea did his magic around 5 years ago - I am not sure on the grinding side on the guides to fit past:( I will check the inner pads wear over the weekend and see what is going on and get back to you on that. I do not feel a 'spongy pedal' so I doubt it will need bleeding but it may be worth doing. The rear discs are nice and clean with no surface rust.


Loving my ReMap 410bhp/358lbs
Re: Possible Brake concern? [Re: shaky20vt] #1625849
09/10/2018 12:13
09/10/2018 12:13
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 333
France
french_coupe Offline
Club member 773
french_coupe  Offline
Club member 773
Making a profit

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 333
France
It is worth bleeding the fluid at all points to get rid of any air that maybe there, but also to change the fluid if it hasn't been done for some years.
I change the fluid approximately every 2 years or so. Its amazing how dirty it gets.
I would flush at least 1 litre through the system but 2 litres would be better. no need to use 5.1 either, just more expensive.


lost in space
Re: Possible Brake concern? [Re: shaky20vt] #1625854
09/10/2018 14:40
09/10/2018 14:40
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,646
Pothole City
GrahamL Offline
Forum is my job
GrahamL  Offline
Forum is my job

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,646
Pothole City
Sounds normal, the 20vt brakes have always felt mediocre at best, even when everything was new.

Re: Possible Brake concern? [Re: GrahamL] #1625885
10/10/2018 07:47
10/10/2018 07:47
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,046
Caston, Norfolk
BBR Offline
Membership secretary
BBR  Offline
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Competition Level

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,046
Caston, Norfolk
Originally Posted By GrahamL
Sounds normal, the 20vt brakes have always felt mediocre at best, even when everything was new.

Still better than the brakes on the non turbo's - I never feel as confident with those - but the less weight helps a bit


16v (Blitz)
Re: Possible Brake concern? [Re: shaky20vt] #1625895
10/10/2018 11:33
10/10/2018 11:33
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 816
Germany
neil_r Offline
Enjoying the ride
neil_r  Offline
Enjoying the ride

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 816
Germany
As long as the discs and pads are of good quality and condition and the flexi-hoses are not perished/delaminated, etc., "my" 20V seems pretty good - always was right from day one. The results at the last TÜV test with new ATE discs and standard FIAT pads was the best yet after 21 years. If they are in poor condition, no brakes will feel good.


1997 20V
2000 V6 manual S-Type and 2011 5.0 XKR
2016 Tucson 1.6T AWD
2018 Mazda2 GT
Re: Possible Brake concern? [Re: shaky20vt] #1625898
10/10/2018 12:36
10/10/2018 12:36
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 435
Guildford
wink Offline
Club member 1453
wink  Offline
Club member 1453
Enjoying the ride

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 435
Guildford
Are you saying that when braking from high speed, you have long pedal travel, or rather that nothing happens for a while before you get any bite? I thought you meant the former, but was then a bit surprised that you say the pedal is not spongy. If it's a long pedal, I'd think that was air in the system & bleeding should fix it. On the other hand, if it's just no initial bite, I'd suspect glazed pads. Try the repeated high-speed braking procedure that's on the forum somewhere - I think it's under 'Pagid pad breaking' or similar. If that doesn't work, try some new pads - personally I'm not a fan of EBC, I'd go for Pagid blue or Brembo fast road pads.

Re: Possible Brake concern? [Re: wink] #1625901
10/10/2018 14:29
10/10/2018 14:29
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 816
Germany
neil_r Offline
Enjoying the ride
neil_r  Offline
Enjoying the ride

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 816
Germany
Originally Posted By wink
If that doesn't work, try some new pads - personally I'm not a fan of EBC, I'd go for Pagid blue or Brembo fast road pads.


I also have had RedStuff on another car - very poor cold performance and only average hot performance. It is a low-dust pad, but not a very good pad. On the Jaguar I had them on, they measured about 20% lower than standard pads at the TÜV test. Replacing them with stock has put the readings back to when it was 3 years old (first test) so the calipers etc are OK. If you are a fairly gentle driver, standard type pads are probably the best for everyday use.

If the discs have rusted a little too deeply, they seem to harden (cementite high-spots) and never grip well again, so another thing to consider.

Last edited by neil_r; 10/10/2018 14:30.

1997 20V
2000 V6 manual S-Type and 2011 5.0 XKR
2016 Tucson 1.6T AWD
2018 Mazda2 GT
Re: Possible Brake concern? [Re: shaky20vt] #1625902
10/10/2018 14:36
10/10/2018 14:36
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 526
Freedom
Master_Mariner Offline
Club member 583
Master_Mariner  Offline
Club member 583
Enjoying the ride

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 526
Freedom
Any lips on your front discs (both sides inside and out?)

5 year old discs + 410 bhp is a heady mix as well.

Regards

Re: Possible Brake concern? [Re: Master_Mariner] #1625905
10/10/2018 15:06
10/10/2018 15:06
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 58
Surrey
shaky20vt Offline OP
Reaping the fruits
shaky20vt  Offline OP
Reaping the fruits

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 58
Surrey
Hi Guys - sorry I was having login problems - all sorted now.
The car has been garaged for the last 4 years as I brought a house and you know how that goes with 3 children (money just seems to disappear) Anyway I got it back on the road this May and I changed the rear pads as they were shot and did an oil and filter change.
There is no Lip on the discs at all - since the remap I have only driven it around 2000 miles. Maybe I should change the front pads.
There is no initial bite on the pedal but at higher speed I seem to have to stamp on them - it maybe because of speed it carries, but it just does not seem right to me.
I will try and investigate this weekend if I get a chance - but I do really appreciate the feedback.


Loving my ReMap 410bhp/358lbs
Re: Possible Brake concern? [Re: shaky20vt] #1625912
10/10/2018 20:28
10/10/2018 20:28
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 435
Guildford
wink Offline
Club member 1453
wink  Offline
Club member 1453
Enjoying the ride

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 435
Guildford
Glazed pads, I'm pretty sure. You could also try Ferodo 2500 as well as the others I suggested.

Re: Possible Brake concern? [Re: shaky20vt] #1625928
11/10/2018 08:57
11/10/2018 08:57
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,874
SW London
suba Offline
Je suis un Coupé
suba  Offline
Je suis un Coupé

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,874
SW London
EBC pads are really poor - I had a set of yellow stuff that literally crumbled to bits when I took them out.

Hawk Blues, Pagid Blues, or Ferodo DS2500's - you get what you pay for.

I've also had a rear disc that was warped before - no judder on the pedal oddly enough, but was causing long travel, and also lack of bite / feel.


Rotary fun - 370 bhp per ton. GT30's are small you know?!??!?!?!
Re: Possible Brake concern? [Re: suba] #1625932
11/10/2018 10:33
11/10/2018 10:33
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,999
Costa Del Sawley
Paul_V Offline
My life on the forum
Paul_V  Offline
My life on the forum

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,999
Costa Del Sawley
Agreed on EBC red/yellow/green stuff, they are a very poor performance pad.

We used to sell them a few years back for 20vt's/ Impreza's etc.
Our customers gave nothing but negative feedback on them so we stopped selling them. Far better pads out there for similar money.

Re: Possible Brake concern? [Re: Paul_V] #1625933
11/10/2018 10:36
11/10/2018 10:36
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 58
Surrey
shaky20vt Offline OP
Reaping the fruits
shaky20vt  Offline OP
Reaping the fruits

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 58
Surrey
That is great guys - I think I will change the pads and bleed the brakes and go from there.
Following pad options are in order of preference
Brembo, Pagid, ferrodo


Loving my ReMap 410bhp/358lbs
Re: Possible Brake concern? [Re: shaky20vt] #1625962
12/10/2018 11:34
12/10/2018 11:34
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 435
Guildford
wink Offline
Club member 1453
wink  Offline
Club member 1453
Enjoying the ride

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 435
Guildford
I'm using the Brembos, obtainable from http://www.racepads.co.uk/.
I used to get Pagid blues from them, great pads but they became very expensive, and these guys suggested I try the Brembos, which I'm quite happy with.

Re: Possible Brake concern? [Re: shaky20vt] #1625967
12/10/2018 12:05
12/10/2018 12:05
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,201
Turin 25th Anniversary trip!
DaveG Offline
Club Member 311
DaveG  Offline
Club Member 311
Forum is my life

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 7,201
Turin 25th Anniversary trip!
Hmm, interesting about brembo pads.

For 20vt the fronts are 07.B314.39 (Sport) B11.14.170 (Racing) and rears are 07.B315.24 (Sport)

The front Sport pads can be bought for under £120 inc P&P & VAT, a little more than Ferodo DS2500, and as you say, Pagid Blue are double that price!

The front Racing pads appear to be around £300+ however.


1996 Portofino 20vt & 2000 Pearl White Plus
1985½ & 2016 2017 Fiat 124 Spider + XF Sportbrake

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