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Stage 3 hybrid 342bhp on the rollers #1358365
08/07/2012 23:40
08/07/2012 23:40

C
Craig_SWales
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Craig_SWales
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C



Like to thank Leighton for all his hard work on the remap. I need to go back at some point as the standard clutch was unstable. Plenty more power in the girl, but i need to sort this clutch. Well happy to hit 342bhp and 288 torque.

Spec
Stage 3 hybrid
Evo fmic
Sip and hks filter
Ported inlet and throttle body
ss decat and back box
Blitz boost control
uprated injectors
3.0 fpr
Walbro 255 pump and live feed
Standard clutch

Re: Stage 3 hybrid 342bhp on the rollers [Re: ] #1358458
09/07/2012 10:35
09/07/2012 10:35

H
h2ypr
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h2ypr
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H



Have you got a graph?

Seems like fairly good power from the stage 3 and bhp figure seems to be where people have been hitting recently.

What clutch you going to go for?

Ross

Re: Stage 3 hybrid 342bhp on the rollers [Re: ] #1358489
09/07/2012 12:23
09/07/2012 12:23

J
jonnyk
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jonnyk
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J



exhaustwise, you just had a decat and backbox? not even a full system with a bigger downpipe? suprising!

Re: Stage 3 hybrid 342bhp on the rollers [Re: ] #1358513
09/07/2012 13:12
09/07/2012 13:12

C
Craig_SWales
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Craig_SWales
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Will update graph once I scan the doc. Going to get a paddle clutch once I put more money in my funds.

Standard downpipe yes, I was very surprised myself with the results on a standard. Just shows what these hybrid are capable of.

Re: Stage 3 hybrid 342bhp on the rollers [Re: ] #1358630
09/07/2012 18:55
09/07/2012 18:55
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,670
SW London
Rudidudi Offline
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Rudidudi  Offline
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Posts: 1,670
SW London
importantly 'when' does the power get delivered?

Re: Stage 3 hybrid 342bhp on the rollers [Re: ] #1358660
09/07/2012 19:50
09/07/2012 19:50
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
Flea Offline
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Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
I have the graphs Craig smile

click to enlarge click to enlarge

Just goes to show that the "same" car and "same" spec does not always mean the "same" result. The torque delivery is different to the typical Stage 3, as shown by the graph, peaking later with the associated increase in power.

It was a shame about the slipping clutch, but as advised to Craig in the pre-map brief, at this level the standard clutch is always going to be marginal, especially if not new.

There is more to be had from this one smile


[Linked Image]

Re: Stage 3 hybrid 342bhp on the rollers [Re: Flea] #1358663
09/07/2012 19:55
09/07/2012 19:55

T
tim42
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tim42
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T



Good stuff Craig; have fun! driving

Re: Stage 3 hybrid 342bhp on the rollers [Re: ] #1358681
09/07/2012 20:34
09/07/2012 20:34

C
Craig_SWales
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Craig_SWales
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C



Thanks Leighton for that, saves time with the scanning. Very happy with the coupe, it's like driving a new car. Power delivery is amazing. Have to save up on fuel. Its going to be an interesting month.

Re: Stage 3 hybrid 342bhp on the rollers [Re: ] #1359289
11/07/2012 14:59
11/07/2012 14:59

J
jonone
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jonone
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J



It does look late, what's the size of your exhaust?

Re: Stage 3 hybrid 342bhp on the rollers [Re: Flea] #1359370
11/07/2012 19:37
11/07/2012 19:37
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,390
Essex
Trappy Offline
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Essex
It's interesting to these these stats that are very similiar to mine even though I'm on a bigger turbo. Having opened my graph to compare though, I'm drawn to the difference in power loss to the wheels despite the peak figure and rpm being VERY similar.

Trappy 342bhp

Craig's car
342.9bhp @6,694rpm
305.0bhp @6,546rpm

Trappy
342.4bhp @6,558rpm
287.5bhp @6,379rpm

What on earth could be causing this an additional 20bhp loss to the wheels on an otherwise identicle car? Does this car have standard 20vT wheels I wonder?


F****** b****** thing...
Re: Stage 3 hybrid 342bhp on the rollers [Re: ] #1359380
11/07/2012 20:16
11/07/2012 20:16
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
Southsea
G
Gunzi Offline
Club member 189, Former Club President
Gunzi  Offline
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Je suis un Coupé
G

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
Southsea
I take it the stage 3 is the 62 trim compressor and 76 trim turbine?

If so what is the difference in trims and housings between the stage 3 and the GT2860RS?

Re: Stage 3 hybrid 342bhp on the rollers [Re: Trappy] #1359389
11/07/2012 20:40
11/07/2012 20:40

B
Biggenz
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Biggenz
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Originally Posted By: Trappy
What on earth could be causing this an additional 20bhp loss to the wheels on an otherwise identicle car?


Varying dyno results.

Re: Stage 3 hybrid 342bhp on the rollers [Re: ] #1359395
11/07/2012 20:52
11/07/2012 20:52

H
h2ypr
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h2ypr
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H



I thought both of them were completed on the same dyno by flea?

Ross

Re: Stage 3 hybrid 342bhp on the rollers [Re: Gunzi] #1359412
11/07/2012 22:39
11/07/2012 22:39

D
doug20vt
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doug20vt
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D



Originally Posted By: Gunzi
I take it the stage 3 is the 62 trim compressor and 76 trim turbine?

If so what is the difference in trims and housings between the stage 3 and the GT2860RS?


The difference is the gt28rs has slightly bigger housings that the stage 3, on the compressor side the housing is 0.60a/r vs machined 0.42a/r housing and the turbine housing on the rs is 0.64a/r as oppose to the hybrids machined 0.49a/r housing

Re: Stage 3 hybrid 342bhp on the rollers [Re: ] #1359423
11/07/2012 23:26
11/07/2012 23:26

B
Barbz
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Barbz
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B



Quote:



What on earth could be causing this an additional 20bhp loss to the wheels on an otherwise identicle car?


Varying dyno results.


Ambient temps can make an impact also.

Re: Stage 3 hybrid 342bhp on the rollers [Re: ] #1359470
12/07/2012 08:40
12/07/2012 08:40
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
Southsea
G
Gunzi Offline
Club member 189, Former Club President
Gunzi  Offline
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Je suis un Coupé
G

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
Southsea
Originally Posted By: doug20vt
Originally Posted By: Gunzi
I take it the stage 3 is the 62 trim compressor and 76 trim turbine?

If so what is the difference in trims and housings between the stage 3 and the GT2860RS?


The difference is the gt28rs has slightly bigger housings that the stage 3, on the compressor side the housing is 0.60a/r vs machined 0.42a/r housing and the turbine housing on the rs is 0.64a/r as oppose to the hybrids machined 0.49a/r housing


Thanks Doug, so are the trims the same size? I see Trappy runs the even larger 0.86 a/r turbine housing. How does the larger housings impact the performance? Presumably the larger the housing the more efficiently the compressor / turbine can flow, which translates into more power for a given boost level?

Re: Stage 3 hybrid 342bhp on the rollers [Re: ] #1359510
12/07/2012 09:54
12/07/2012 09:54

J
jonone
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jonone
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J



More power but more Lag gunzi, I wouldn't go 86 on a small turbo.
I think my RSR does it all a true 300+hp with near std spool, but the stage 3 hybrids are a cheaper alternative.

The dyno might have been re-calibrated between the two cars runs? just shows you dyno's are really only good as an indicator or using as a back to back comparison of your own mods, thats why I have stuck with the heartbreaker dyno as its the only one my car has ever been on and I have now got a nice steady plot of my mods.
I could put it on fleas dyno and I would probably make 360hp but it don't mean bugger all really.

Re: Stage 3 hybrid 342bhp on the rollers [Re: ] #1359521
12/07/2012 10:12
12/07/2012 10:12

D
doug20vt
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doug20vt
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D



Hi Gunzi, the wheels are exactly the same, just the housings that are different, as jonone says you will get more power with the bigger exhaust housing but it will be laggier, so a lot depends on your driving style, if you don't mind really reving it, it might suit but personally i would rather use either the standard 0.49a/r housing or 0.64a/r housing and have the power albeit a bit less of it at more useable revs and hence road speeds

Re: Stage 3 hybrid 342bhp on the rollers [Re: ] #1359541
12/07/2012 10:52
12/07/2012 10:52
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
Flea Offline
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Posts: 5,405
Castle Combe
No difference in the dyno, same settings and same calibration data. The mass of the rollers does not change!

Not all Stage 3 hybrids make this power, you only have to look at the league table to see the variance. In Craig's case the torque delivery is really quite different with a late surge at the top end. Peak torque is no different, but when it is made higher up it will naturally mean greater horsepower. Number of potential causes as advised to Craig e.g. retarded cam.

As for wheel power, well this is where a dyno that measures coastdown losses is very useful. I can get the same car, same day etc, remove the wheel and put in a slightly sticking brake caliper, reduce the tyre pressure by 10psi, and then run it up again. The flywheel power will be almost identical, but the wheel power will be a lot less. This is perfect for problem solving as it tells me that there is nothing wrong with the engine (or tune), but that there is a problem somewhere between the flywheel and tyre.

Now do the same test on a Dyno Dynamics (Heartbreaker dyno), and you will end up with lower wheel power but also lower flywheel power... well that's not right is it! This is because the Dyno Dynamics doesn't measure the losses, but simply adds a fixed loss to the wheel power. So now you have a low wheel figure, a low flywheel figure and you don't realise that you have a slightly sticking caliper with an underinflated tyre. A lot of time to be wasted searching for an engine problem that isn't there.


[Linked Image]

Re: Stage 3 hybrid 342bhp on the rollers [Re: ] #1359575
12/07/2012 13:30
12/07/2012 13:30

B
Biggenz
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Biggenz
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B



Man, and the heartbreaker lives up to its name. My car with RS made 344bhp on Flea's dyno and a whole 286bhp at Surrey RR.

Massive difference, but shows you how inaccurate dyno's can be.

Re: Stage 3 hybrid 342bhp on the rollers [Re: ] #1359582
12/07/2012 14:03
12/07/2012 14:03

J
jonone
Unregistered
jonone
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J



what torque pero?

Re: Stage 3 hybrid 342bhp on the rollers [Re: ] #1359590
12/07/2012 14:39
12/07/2012 14:39

B
Biggenz
Unregistered
Biggenz
Unregistered
B



305lbft on Flea's dyno. Can't remember what it made on the heartbreaker.

Re: Stage 3 hybrid 342bhp on the rollers [Re: ] #1359654
12/07/2012 17:01
12/07/2012 17:01

J
jonone
Unregistered
jonone
Unregistered
J



barbles said your to scared to put your car on the heartbreaker now! tongue

Re: Stage 3 hybrid 342bhp on the rollers [Re: ] #1359687
12/07/2012 19:25
12/07/2012 19:25

B
Biggenz
Unregistered
Biggenz
Unregistered
B



...scared I'll break his dyno. wink tongue

Re: Stage 3 hybrid 342bhp on the rollers [Re: ] #1359837
13/07/2012 10:00
13/07/2012 10:00

J
jonone
Unregistered
jonone
Unregistered
J



nah, he would get bored before you broke it, how long does it take you to get to 8,000 revs?........ couple of weeks in it? tongue laugh

Re: Stage 3 hybrid 342bhp on the rollers [Re: Flea] #1359877
13/07/2012 11:29
13/07/2012 11:29
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,390
Essex
Trappy Offline
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Trappy  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,390
Essex
Originally Posted By: Flea
As for wheel power, well this is where a dyno that measures coastdown losses is very useful. I can get the same car, same day etc, remove the wheel and put in a slightly sticking brake caliper, reduce the tyre pressure by 10psi, and then run it up again. The flywheel power will be almost identical, but the wheel power will be a lot less. This is perfect for problem solving as it tells me that there is nothing wrong with the engine (or tune), but that there is a problem somewhere between the flywheel and tyre.


Interesting. My car has always had pretty high transmission losses towards the top end over the years. I always keep tyre pressures up when on the rollers though and I've had the thing for 8 years so I'm guessing I can rule out a sticking caliper...

It's also not consistent across the rev band, instead only the last 1,000rpm if that my be indicative?

Obviously wheel power is what gives the performance so if that is lower than another car's making the same engine power, then it will be slower. Worth looking into! Any ideas what other faulty mechanical parts could cause this? Sounds an awful lot like easy, cheap additional performance! evil


F****** b****** thing...

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