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#1600033 - 06/05/2017 23:04 Re: Track settings [Re: mootch]
knight7660 Offline
Competition Level

Registered: 16/12/2007
Posts: 2233
Loc: Windsor/ Reading
well at least you got some money off Andy smile
_________________________
LE53 (452BHp & 389ftlb's with Quaife)
Wine red VIS FOOFY
Audi RS4 B7

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#1600941 - 20/05/2017 06:16 Re: Track settings [Re: mootch]
Hoops82 Offline
Making a profit

Registered: 30/05/2007
Posts: 228
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
Is there a handling 'the knowledge' thread somewhere that I'm missing or could we get one if not? There is so much useful information but also a lot of repetition as new owners come on asking questions.
_________________________

Resting UK

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#1600947 - 20/05/2017 08:03 Re: Track settings [Re: mootch]
deannn_20VT Offline
My life on the forum

Registered: 12/08/2006
Posts: 1858
Loc: Poland
First page of this thread. A lot has been said by Nigel.
_________________________
Self-built forged 20VT lump running GT2871R turbo, EMU Stand Alone & pushing true 350bhp & 350lbft.

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#1600951 - 20/05/2017 08:35 Re: Track settings [Re: mootch]
Hoops82 Offline
Making a profit

Registered: 30/05/2007
Posts: 228
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
Nigel is the knowledge basically. But many others have added valuable info over the years, including in the old forum. If only to save nigel keep repeating his work, would be good to have a sticky top thread for quick reference, like in the tuning forum.
_________________________

Resting UK

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#1600953 - 20/05/2017 08:54 Re: Track settings [Re: mootch]
deannn_20VT Offline
My life on the forum

Registered: 12/08/2006
Posts: 1858
Loc: Poland
Agree. A sticky would be nice.
_________________________
Self-built forged 20VT lump running GT2871R turbo, EMU Stand Alone & pushing true 350bhp & 350lbft.

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#1601055 - 21/05/2017 19:12 Re: Track settings [Re: mootch]
godders Offline
Club member 1575
On a journey

Registered: 16/05/2006
Posts: 128
Loc: Surrey Hills, U.K
Okay,

I'll bite and perhaps work with Nigel et el to create a Sticky.
What I'm finding is that there is not really a lot of repeatition as the world has moved on since alot of the information was first posted and its good to re-invigorate the discussion and get new info out there.

Seems I'm not completely bonkers and others are looking or already running serious TD Coupe's. If people are happy to contribute to a stickey on this subject "Building a trackday Coupe - Handling" I'll be happy to pull it together as I'm learning a great deal as I go on this and selfishly it will help me!

Let me know if you are happy to contribute and I'll reachout and start collating the info

Regards

Stuart

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#1601062 - 21/05/2017 20:12 Re: Track settings [Re: mootch]
andyps Offline
Club member 1482
Enjoying the ride

Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 1112
Loc: Pontefract, West Yorkshire
I'll happily contribute my findings. Not quite a track day car but I can see variations against the clock which could be helpful - just that I don't get many attempts each day out!!
_________________________
Andy


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#1601179 - 23/05/2017 18:19 Re: Track settings [Re: mootch]
knight7660 Offline
Competition Level

Registered: 16/12/2007
Posts: 2233
Loc: Windsor/ Reading
Well the BC fronts turned up today and i must say they look like a quality bit of kit. Ive used some cheap coil overs before including FK's and i must say these look very well made but we will see how they do on track.

At the moment they only do the BR series style coil overs if there is more interest later on (if more venture on track) Apex said they will push for a better set up out of there line.
_________________________
LE53 (452BHp & 389ftlb's with Quaife)
Wine red VIS FOOFY
Audi RS4 B7

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#1601222 - 24/05/2017 08:26 Re: Track settings [Re: mootch]
Nigel Offline
Club member 123
Forum veteran

Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 16870
Loc: Staffordshire
@ Stuart

I'm happy to put some text together which you can use in a wider article about handling. However, many of my posts over the years have generally about making the Coupe get round corners better / faster. This is only one aspect of "handling" - I'm also of the opinion that the best-handling Coupe for everyday use is one on standard wheels, good tyres, standard suspension and springs. The designers at Fiat knew what they were doing when they built the Coupe (albeit using an old chassis as a base and a compromised design as the basis for a sporty coupe). One of the very best handling Coupes I've ever driven was my own Moon Grey Plus, just after I bought it, when it had just 24,000 miles on the clock and was completely standard.

Most owners complaining of wayward handling are running on budget tyres, tired wishbones, original springs and shocks, or worse still, badly-matched springs and dampers, oversize wheels & tyres and daft amounts of camber caused by lowering too far.

Car handling is a bit of a dark art and its really easy to get it horribly wrong

I'll have a think about it and try to come up with some text


Edited by Nigel (24/05/2017 08:28)
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#1601851 - 01/06/2017 12:28 Re: Track settings [Re: Nigel]
godders Offline
Club member 1575
On a journey

Registered: 16/05/2006
Posts: 128
Loc: Surrey Hills, U.K
Hi Nigel,

Thanks for your response and also thank you for taking the time to summarize your knowledge in the sticky.

Obviously speaking for myself, we're on a journey and I have an ambition to build in the next 2 years a reasonably good trackday car using a Coupe as the base. Therefore leveraging the experience of people like you on the forum is essential and again speaking for myself, but I'm sure repeated by many others we appreciate your input and value your knowledge.

Thanks again

Regards

Sg

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#1607300 - 04/09/2017 18:06 Re: Track settings [Re: mootch]
godders Offline
Club member 1575
On a journey

Registered: 16/05/2006
Posts: 128
Loc: Surrey Hills, U.K
Thought I would give an update on "Barry" my trackday car.

I eventually chose BC BR Series Coilovers - basically what Adam had on the back of his car and has just got to put on the front.

I've paired this with Elbach ARB's (front and rear).
Solid (black) Powerflex bushes on front wishbones, droplinks etc.
New VibroTechnic Engine mounts (as the originals were shagged).
FCSS subframes (front and rear)
Toyo R888R 225/45 16 tyres.

Fundamentally the car is transformed. I have still some fettling in the front suspension as I think the front is a bit too low. There is insufficient adjustment in the pillow mounts to get any reasonable camber and as Nigel mentioned, MacPherson struts on lots of compression start to work against you and all that lovely neg' camber you've setup gets dialled out. General rule it seems on this sort of set-up is add more camber that you need as when you really compress the front suspension in a high speed bend the MacPherson will obligingly dial it out for you crazy

So I have some camber bolts, which I shall be fitting soon. The intention is to set the pillow mounts with maximum positive adjustment, set my camber with ~1 degree neg through the camber bolts and then I have the ability to easily dial in an extra 1.5 or so degrees and see how the car behaves.

I've (well Joe FCSS has) also stripped all the airconn out from the engine bay, this has two benefits that I can see, I lose a bit of weight, and I also have better access to the aux belts, heat shield etc, also removing the aircon heat exchanger has got to improve airflow to the radiator to, though it does make room for an FMIC chinny

Back in July I took Barry with all this setup, my new Sparco Seats and Harnesses fitted to Snetterton.
The car was massively better on the track than my first outing. Although I'm a bit of a newbie on all this trackday lark, the confidence on the car was great, I still thought it needed a bit more bight at the front and I feel/felt this was camber related.

Last August bank holiday I was at DN18 - Nordschleife, for two days of the green ribbon. Prior to going I managed to dial-in some neg camber on the pillow mounts (to this point the coilovers were set-up as per factory). This certainly seemed to help (a bit). Overall I was happy with the performance of the car, interestingly I was slowed by significantly more expensive machinary - this could be down to experience on this circuit (I did DN16 last year in a Rent4Ring Swift), but also confidence in the car. My presumption is I was more confident in my car's handling than they were in theirs!

So whats next? Well, Barry was not entirely reliable at the Nordschleife, nothing terminal, but just electrical and induction pipe work. So I need to spend a little time fixing the "wearing of age", so the EBV does not keep failing and the pipe from the intercooler does not pop off at 100+ shocked I will also be taking him to someone who can do a weighting setup and with some proper Hunter gear some proper alignment etc.

I'm also looking at doing the radiator fan fix so I can run these with the engine off, possibly also some way to help the coolant circulate too. I'm looking also to fit a glass fibre bonnet, again to shift some of that weight and re-locate the battery to the boot.

Thats it for now, I'm planning one last track day for this year before I put Barry metaphorically to bed.

Hope this is interesting and I would be pleased to receive any of your views?

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#1607307 - 04/09/2017 20:54 Re: Track settings [Re: mootch]
Nigel Offline
Club member 123
Forum veteran

Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 16870
Loc: Staffordshire
If you still want more front-end bite, consider going back to standard for the front ARB. You might need to play around with spring rates and damping settings to compensate, but you'll find it makes a considerable difference.

I run a 23mm rear ARB and standard front

IMHO its not worth going for corner weighting, as there's not a lot you can do and the Coupe is quite uneven anyway. You're better off spending your time and money getting the geometry right.

Hunter is a good piece of kit - I've had my Coupe on the local Kwik-Fit Hunter setup about twenty or thirty times now.

When you get it done, I'd be tempted to look closely at the caster - I'm wondering if you have the "max-caster" top mounts, as I'm rather surprised that you can't get more than 1 degree negative with the BC pillowball mounts.

Are you 100% sure they are fitted correctly? Some of them are "handed" (ie not symmetrical)

Either way, it sounds like you're having a lot of fun finding out how to make the Coupe go round corners while not spitting you into the scenery!
_________________________


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#1607355 - 05/09/2017 18:07 Re: Track settings [Re: Nigel]
godders Offline
Club member 1575
On a journey

Registered: 16/05/2006
Posts: 128
Loc: Surrey Hills, U.K
Hi Nigel,

Referring back to this original thread: http://www.fiatcoupeclub.org/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1547540&page=4

Trappy's Coupe was set with ~1 degree of neg camber and from the picture seems to have the pillow mount right inboard (i.e at maximum adjustment). I'll take some photo's of my top mounts and post. As for whether these are Asyms or not - no idea, let me try and investigate this.

What I would say is I'm not suffering the caster issues Trappy experienced in the above noted thread, also bowling down the Bridge to Gantry at an indicated 145mph the car felt solid, so I think my caster and toe (though absolutely needs checking) is reasonable.

Your point of front ARB is a good one and I can only test that out, so I'll add that to my list rolleyes of things to investigate.

Yeah, I am having a lot of fun. I actually think the Coupe is quite a good car to fiddle with (though I suspect the Clio Williams people will argue differently), once I have a suspension setup I'm happy with and where I'm able to do good track times because I have a reasonable handling car, rather than 500bhp to zoom down the straights and then boil my brakes at the corner, I'll look to up the HP a little angel

Quoting Colin Chapman: "Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere." - I would also add that making a car handle is a double win, as not only do you improve your on track performance, but you need less emphasis on brakes and cooling!

Anyway thanks for the reply and I'll "post me tops mounts" in the next few days.

Regards

Sg

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#1607815 - 13/09/2017 21:56 Re: Track settings [Re: mootch]
andyps Offline
Club member 1482
Enjoying the ride

Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 1112
Loc: Pontefract, West Yorkshire
Interesting to read your updates Godders, sounds like you are getting there with the Coupe. I need to see what my budget is like over the winter to see what else I can do to mine - it may be concentrated more on going faster in a straight line rather than corners purely because the turbo oil seals are failing and the smoke gets embarrassing at times. If the turbo needs replacing I don't see any point in getting another standard one so some other performance parts are on the agenda which may push the suspension back for a while.

Are the adjustable top mounts available separately to fit with non coilover suspension?
_________________________
Andy


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#1609054 - 06/10/2017 12:49 Re: Track settings [Re: mootch]
godders Offline
Club member 1575
On a journey

Registered: 16/05/2006
Posts: 128
Loc: Surrey Hills, U.K
Hi Andy,

Sorry for slow reply.

I believe you can get adjustable pillow mounts, but the effort to fit these to the turret's I don't know - hopefully others can confirm here. Do you have camber bolts fitted? as these are the alternative to adjusting camber and are quite easy to fit - though get yourself a camber gauge first.

Agree about the turbo, mine's doing the same, while I sit in the pit lane my car is smoking like a teenager!! Goes soon as I'm on circuit, but I do just find it embarrassing.

I think my next “tuning” purchase is probably Quaife Diff and probably a Turbo upgrade, though replacing the seals I don’t think is massively expensive, so I’ll have to see, forcing Barry on a further diet is also the plan as less weight effectively means better acceleration, fitting fibre glass bonnet saves around 35-40 kilo’s so thats losing a decent amount of weight and importantly from the front!

I’ve still got these tyres for you if you’re still interested, need to sort a time when I’m next driving upt’ north!!

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#1609059 - 06/10/2017 14:58 Re: Track settings [Re: mootch]
knight7660 Offline
Competition Level

Registered: 16/12/2007
Posts: 2233
Loc: Windsor/ Reading
I do love reading this thread because its good to see the coupe being used for what i use mine for mostly.

Keep it up and i think a Uk coupe track day would be an idea if you both fancy it
_________________________
LE53 (452BHp & 389ftlb's with Quaife)
Wine red VIS FOOFY
Audi RS4 B7

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#1609761 - 16/10/2017 16:27 Re: Track settings [Re: godders]
godders Offline
Club member 1575
On a journey

Registered: 16/05/2006
Posts: 128
Loc: Surrey Hills, U.K
Nigel,

Eventually, I have some pictures of my BC Top mounts:

Nearside TM

And

Offside TM

As you can see these do not have an offset or bias, so this is keeping the existing caster (least thats my interpretation).

Thanks

Regards

Sg

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#1609762 - 16/10/2017 16:31 Re: Track settings [Re: knight7660]
godders Offline
Club member 1575
On a journey

Registered: 16/05/2006
Posts: 128
Loc: Surrey Hills, U.K
Hi Adam,

Glad your enjoying the thread, I also did not realize you were such a whizz with a paint brush, so wash it out well as I've got plenty for the brush and you on my place wink

Absolutely up for a UK Coupe trackday, I just missed out on the Silverstone GP on the 6th Nov (Circuit-days) cry
But I intend to get a last day in November, especially after my camber bolt fettling of recent.

Regards

Sg

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#1609770 - 16/10/2017 17:34 Re: Track settings [Re: mootch]
andyps Offline
Club member 1482
Enjoying the ride

Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 1112
Loc: Pontefract, West Yorkshire
Thanks for your reply Godders. Those BC top mounts look good and a way to get more adjustment than the Eibach bolts give (which I do currently have fitted).

I can definitely recommend the Quaife Diff, I have one now and it does help traction around the corners.

Definitely still interested in the tyres, let me know if you are up this way!
_________________________
Andy


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#1610638 - 27/10/2017 23:51 Re: Track settings [Re: godders]
knight7660 Offline
Competition Level

Registered: 16/12/2007
Posts: 2233
Loc: Windsor/ Reading
there is brands 25 or 26th o November if people are interested i know Joe would like to squeeze another in before the year is out but is very busy and weekends is the only time he will be able to do it



Originally Posted By godders
Hi Adam

Glad your enjoying the thread, I also did not realize you were such a whizz with a paint brush, so wash it out well as I've got plenty for the brush and you on my place wink

Absolutely up for a UK Coupe trackday, I just missed out on the Silverstone GP on the 6th Nov (Circuit-days) cry
But I intend to get a last day in November, especially after my camber bolt fettling of recent.

Regards

Sg
_________________________
LE53 (452BHp & 389ftlb's with Quaife)
Wine red VIS FOOFY
Audi RS4 B7

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#1610959 - 03/11/2017 20:22 Re: Track settings [Re: knight7660]
godders Offline
Club member 1575
On a journey

Registered: 16/05/2006
Posts: 128
Loc: Surrey Hills, U.K
oohh, you temptress Adam!!
Just edited this post, as i’ve now realised this is US Thanks Giving weekend and so I will be away rolleyes

I do see that there is a Saturday at Brands on 9th Dec’ is that too late in the year, Joe might have been able to extract himself from under his Coupes by then crazy


Let me know if you want to try and sync up

cheers

Sg


Edited by godders (04/11/2017 09:25)
Edit Reason: Didn’t check my diary first

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