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#1609441 - 12/10/2017 08:36 Spain vs Catalunya
Edinburgh Online   content
Club member 225
Je suis un Coupé

Registered: 04/03/2007
Posts: 9960
Loc: Auld Reekie
The BBC, after their "shock horror" reports and footage of the ill thought-out police action and violence during the Catalunyan independence referendum recently, has suddenly been "gagged" it would seem

All aggression forgotten?

"Some irregularities at the polling stations"?

Noooo! Such as my d-i-l's brother and wife not being able to get out and vote in Barcelona?

Or the ballot boxes being seized - with votes inside one might think?

Come on Beeb, you're too easy to see through rolleyes
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#1609444 - 12/10/2017 09:31 Re: Spain vs Catalunya [Re: Edinburgh]
andyps Offline
Club member 1482
Enjoying the ride

Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 1112
Loc: Pontefract, West Yorkshire
Can't have it being known that an EU member state would use violence to stop democracy of course. What impression would that give of the way the EU operates? And the BBC certainly don't want to upset the EU and lose the funding they get from them.
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Andy


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#1609460 - 12/10/2017 14:41 Re: Spain vs Catalunya [Re: andyps]
Edinburgh Online   content
Club member 225
Je suis un Coupé

Registered: 04/03/2007
Posts: 9960
Loc: Auld Reekie
Originally Posted By andyps
Can't have it being known that an EU member state would use violence to stop democracy of course. What impression would that give of the way the EU operates? And the BBC certainly don't want to upset the EU and lose the funding they get from them.


I detect a healthy northern tongue-in-cheek-ness there wink

But no, it doesn't send out good vibes does it?
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#1609489 - 12/10/2017 21:24 Re: Spain vs Catalunya [Re: Edinburgh]
andyps Offline
Club member 1482
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Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 1112
Loc: Pontefract, West Yorkshire
Originally Posted By Edinburgh


I detect a healthy northern tongue-in-cheek-ness there wink

But no, it doesn't send out good vibes does it?


Just a little wink

And is certainly doesn't. I've seen a couple of posts from people who have woken up a little to the way the EU operate because of what happened in Catalunya.
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#1609540 - 14/10/2017 00:29 Fake news [Re: Edinburgh]
Jef_uk Offline
I need some sleep

Registered: 26/05/2008
Posts: 2742
Loc: watching the watchers
I'm find the lack of discussion of this topic disturbing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzs-OvfG8tE

Fact is some protesters Tried to hurt the police
at no point were the police violent or Otherwise agresive

non PC Edit:
I don't see why any group of people would want top distinguish them selves from a larger group with Questionable a history of Human rights


Edited by Jef_uk (14/10/2017 00:34)
Edit Reason: we should definitely stay in the EU
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#1610238 - 22/10/2017 00:11 Re: Spain vs Catalunya [Re: Edinburgh]
Jef_uk Offline
I need some sleep

Registered: 26/05/2008
Posts: 2742
Loc: watching the watchers
Again and this time without joshing I'm surprised this has not generated more discussion.


In my opinion I'm all for smaller self governing bodies and against empire.

What has bothered me this week has been:
The EU failing to intervine

I believe that Puigdemont played a few blinders and has ( thanks to the predictable missteps of Malian) portraiture the Spaniards as the aggressors and hims self as the peaceful party.

That curries a lot of favor with other peoples.

The fact that the Spanish central authorities have changed the law to poach the HQs of companies based in Barcelona but show no flexibility regarding the referendum is risible.

I also think that the British should be proud of our selves. In my life time all the nations have made some huge steps away from violence and I hope this continues towards its eventual inevitable conclusion.
And I hope that the British and the ROI work together towards a stable, pseudo independent and unique NI, supporting them as a smaller friend. Recognizing that as larger and wealthier neighbors its in our interest to help with aspects of the finances of our friend. Its a prime candidate for "foreign aide" budget to support of the "NHS" Sharing this and law and order with the ROI to ensure a parity of care rather than opposing a rule from some foreign capital....
Extending this so that the Welsh and Scotts are an Autonomous group of friends of the English; as a natural progression as we move away from empire. Sharing defense (not offence) and a set of common goals.
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#1610241 - 22/10/2017 00:36 Re: Spain vs Catalunya [Re: Edinburgh]
Edinburgh Online   content
Club member 225
Je suis un Coupé

Registered: 04/03/2007
Posts: 9960
Loc: Auld Reekie
Having spent time there in the summer but more importantly having extended family connections there the latest dictats from Madrid have me really worried - more than any of the recent domestic elections and referenda.

This is a tinderbox being sparked off by the actions of one man who seems to have forgotten the actions of his predecessor Franco in 1939....or maybe he hasn't frown

Please someone step in and mediate.
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#1610243 - 22/10/2017 00:53 Re: Spain vs Catalunya [Re: Edinburgh]
Jef_uk Offline
I need some sleep

Registered: 26/05/2008
Posts: 2742
Loc: watching the watchers
Well that is the real problem no one seems prepared to realize what's down the pipe and talk to prevent what is otherwise inevitable.

It needs some wise heads on the outside to get people around the table else we end up watching an NI situation or the Kerds or Ukraine or Darfur or Myanmar or.... yeah exactly there is enough of that sh!!

Can we really standby and let that happen in 2017 in Europe FFS?
_________________________
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#1610254 - 22/10/2017 09:42 Re: Spain vs Catalunya [Re: Edinburgh]
barnacle Offline
Club Member 18 - Membership Secretary
Forum Demigod

Registered: 17/12/2005
Posts: 31764
Loc: Hemel in the Hempstead
I am not convinced that returning Europe to the loosely confederated states that existed until the end of the nineteenth centure is a good thing; I believe a central authority *albeit probably not in its current shape* is a better way to manage things.

I think the whole brexit issue is as foolish an issue as the Catalan exit[1]; these are things which require thinking people to discuss, not demagogues and rabble rousers to hide the issue in noise and fury.

Nonetheless, I also think that the Spanish government has far exceeded its authority in its recent actions over Catalan: if people are so eager to leave why would a government want to keep them? Talk to them, find out why, find out what, and find some place of agreement. It needs both sides to move, but that's why we have brains...

[1] if it is a desire for independence; as I recall the vote to leave was a tiny percentage of the voting population.
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#1610255 - 22/10/2017 09:53 Re: Spain vs Catalunya [Re: Edinburgh]
Edinburgh Online   content
Club member 225
Je suis un Coupé

Registered: 04/03/2007
Posts: 9960
Loc: Auld Reekie
Agreed Neil - set the right example by dialogue, the muscling in of the heavies was one of the very evils for which the original Common Market was set up.

Originally Posted By barnacle
if it is a desire for independence; as I recall the vote to leave was a tiny percentage of the voting population.


This is what the BBC (amongst others possibly) is peddling us - how do they know the number of people who "abstained" or were physically barred from voting? Or the number who stayed at home for fear of injury/retribution?

In a 43% turnout to say "the remainder abstained" is codswallop.

If Franco hadn't taken it over in 1939 then the area would have remained a small autonymous region such as Monaco or Andorra - what's the problem, apart from Spain grabbing Catalunya's wealth-producing lands.....
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#1610272 - 22/10/2017 14:26 Re: Spain vs Catalunya [Re: Edinburgh]
barnacle Offline
Club Member 18 - Membership Secretary
Forum Demigod

Registered: 17/12/2005
Posts: 31764
Loc: Hemel in the Hempstead
Wiki (yeah, yeah, I know) claims a population in Catalonia of circa 7.5 million. Assume 80% of them are of voting age, that leave six million voters.

1,800,000 votes were for independence - from a total under two million.

So somewhat under one third of the electorate voted for independence. The vote was never completed, and at least some results were taken by the police and not counted - I don't think that's a mandate one way or the other.

Note that I'm not commenting one way or the other on whether the independence of Catalonia is a good or a bad thing; merely that neither side is currently appearing in a particularly good light.
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#1610286 - 22/10/2017 17:46 Re: Spain vs Catalunya [Re: barnacle]
Edinburgh Online   content
Club member 225
Je suis un Coupé

Registered: 04/03/2007
Posts: 9960
Loc: Auld Reekie
Originally Posted By barnacle

So somewhat under one third of the electorate voted for independence. The vote was never completed, and at least some results were taken by the police and not counted - I don't think that's a mandate one way or the other.


Yes, the inference for "leave" was more to do with the %age of voters who were pro-separation. But my point is essentially corroborated, the line we are being spun is that all (or at least many) non-voters were abstainers. This is, to put not too fine a point on it, "fake news".

Originally Posted By barnacle
Note that I'm not commenting one way or the other on whether the independence of Catalonia is a good or a bad thing; merely that neither one side is not currently appearing in a particularly good light.


Fixed that!

Golden rule through precedent....if a bigger country is controlling a smaller territory, don't let it feel it is being neglected! "Nationalism" is encouraged throughout the world so don't be surprised when a nation feels threatened......

I also wonder which of the incidents of violence perpetrated by the Spanish police their Foreign Minister perceives as "fake"?

_________________________


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#1610618 - 27/10/2017 16:15 Re: Spain vs Catalunya [Re: Edinburgh]
Edinburgh Online   content
Club member 225
Je suis un Coupé

Registered: 04/03/2007
Posts: 9960
Loc: Auld Reekie
So they've done it....I hope Madrid exercises some common sense and avoids the prospect of some really nasty on-street scenes.

There is a possibility that Puigdemont will be arrested - what then?
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#1610624 - 27/10/2017 18:32 Re: Spain vs Catalunya [Re: Edinburgh]
magooagain Offline
Club member 259
Forum is my life

Registered: 22/10/2008
Posts: 6410
Loc: ked
Yes let's hope that whatever happens,it's peacefull.
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#1610625 - 27/10/2017 18:38 Re: Spain vs Catalunya [Re: Edinburgh]
H_R Offline
Club member 1114
My life on the forum

Registered: 30/07/2012
Posts: 1601
Loc: Dark side of the Moon
The UK has said they wont recognise it! i wonder if that is due to Scotland probably thinking the time is right to try again biglaugh

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#1610627 - 27/10/2017 18:49 Re: Spain vs Catalunya [Re: H_R]
Edinburgh Online   content
Club member 225
Je suis un Coupé

Registered: 04/03/2007
Posts: 9960
Loc: Auld Reekie
Originally Posted By H_R
The UK has said they wont recognise it! i wonder if that is due to Scotland probably thinking the time is right to try again biglaugh


They're being sat on by EU.....

Wales on the other hand..


There is a flaw in this Article 155 which I'm trying to recall - in any case it was drawn up by Franco-ist politicians
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#1610628 - 27/10/2017 19:16 Re: Spain vs Catalunya [Re: Edinburgh]
magooagain Offline
Club member 259
Forum is my life

Registered: 22/10/2008
Posts: 6410
Loc: ked
I'm sure many of use know,but the Spanish are very very excitable people and thier emotions run wild at times from what I have witnessed in the past.

Thier recent history in politics and the public worries me.
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#1610629 - 27/10/2017 20:11 Re: Spain vs Catalunya [Re: Edinburgh]
Jim_Clennell Offline
Club member 105
Forum veteran

Registered: 16/12/2005
Posts: 16223
Loc: Corridor of Uncertainty
Badly handled by both sides. My experience of Catalan separatism is a reminder that zealous support for a cultural identity is uncomfortably close to a rejection of other cultures. Catalonia already enjoys many autonomous freedoms - more than other Spanish regions, which contributes to the feeling I have that there is a component of "I'm alright, Jack, why should I support the less prosperous regions?". On the other hand Madrid has played its hand very clumsily. At an early stage, it should have organised a legitimate referendum to encourage those Catalans opposed to independence to stand up to the strident Pro-independence voices. That would have at least prevented the spurious claims made about the mandate for a UDI.


Edited by Jim_Clennell (27/10/2017 20:12)
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#1610635 - 27/10/2017 23:26 Re: Spain vs Catalunya [Re: Jim_Clennell]
Edinburgh Online   content
Club member 225
Je suis un Coupé

Registered: 04/03/2007
Posts: 9960
Loc: Auld Reekie
It's not as if the quest for independence has been a flash in the pan though.....

It's hard to condone a takeover of a small country then a couple of generations later find that it's been generously offered a portion of its autonomy back.

Imagine if a country tried to invade Britain.....

Badly handled, definitely.
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#1611027 - 05/11/2017 00:16 Re: Spain vs Catalunya [Re: Edinburgh]
Jef_uk Offline
I need some sleep

Registered: 26/05/2008
Posts: 2742
Loc: watching the watchers
Looking on again Puigdemont plays another blinder! Now the cabinet are maters; fermenting discord.

Why can Spain no see how played they are?

I do not want to see another Guernica or closer to home Bloody Sunday follow both links Yep that is almost 100 years of blood shed cry


Alternative UK statement ( if our leaders had balls or I was the PM) Deliberately can be read as if Welsh or Scottish or English or NI.
Quote:

Today, as required by our unwritten respect for the UK sovereign nations, I met with the leaders of the devolved UK parliaments and we have agreed the following joint statement:
The UK, from a unique position of increasing autonomy and an end of empire, looks towards the events unfolding in the northeastern Iberian region of Catalonia and implores both sides to immediately move towards a peaceful dialog.
The UK, as a whole, speaks as one when we implore the national government to allow a free vote and to recognize and accept the choice of the populace.
The UK is not unique, It is made up from sovereign parts and accepts that it has made made significant progress to mending the divisions that would shatter our union. Many of these division stem from heavy hand of centralized governance.
To this end the UK finds and draws its strength in the diversity of its constituents and regions.

Whilst, at this stage, we are unable to recognize the referendum in the Catalonia region due to the lack of order and difficulties which lowered the turn out, we recognize the importance of enabling the legitimate referendum which will draw a line under this issue for the current generation.

Some people from the outside see our United Kingdom as the last fragment of an empire, clinging to the past.
The British have recognized the people of the Commonwealth and their unique and individual nations and as part of the dept that all Europe owe; we the indebted British have restore the sovereignty of our friends which make up our commonwealth. We look to the future and opportunities that a progressive, optimistic and friendly outlook will bring amongst our equals, offering a open hand to lift up our friends and an openness to learn from then in opposition to the closed fist of oppression which belongs, and will always remain, in less enlightened times.



Singed her majesty's governments
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#1612795 - 09/12/2017 03:34 Re: Spain vs Catalunya [Re: Edinburgh]
avtokrator Online   content
Enjoying the ride

Registered: 04/01/2009
Posts: 559
Loc: Spain
Nothing is what it seems to be over the mass media. There are decades of background games, lack of other than "we want" basis, millions of € and three generations of local vassals definitely to respond Themis.

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#1613459 - 22/12/2017 03:04 Re: Spain vs Catalunya [Re: Edinburgh]
Jef_uk Offline
I need some sleep

Registered: 26/05/2008
Posts: 2742
Loc: watching the watchers
Catalonia election: Separatist parties keep their majority

Now some one please explain why they want to be ruled by the Germans where you cannot mow your grass on e Sunday or put washing out on a bank holiday...

https://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/topic/17113-mowing-your-lawn-on-a-sunday/

Quote:

The laws generally restrict when you cannot make noise loud enough to be heard outside your home, such as drilling, running a vacuum, playing music, etc., the so-called Ruhezeit, quiet time. Typically the Ruhezeit is from 10 pm to 6 am daily and all day Sunday.

If a neighbor is making noise during this legal Ruhezeit, you are entitled to call the local police or Ordnungsamt (“office of order” — how much more German can you get) to force them to stop, though they will usually ask you to try asking the neighbors yourself before having the cops show up or a fine charged by the Ordungsamt.


Good god to be free of that!!!


Edited by Jef_uk (22/12/2017 03:04)
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#1613467 - 22/12/2017 08:06 Re: Spain vs Catalunya [Re: Edinburgh]
barnacle Offline
Club Member 18 - Membership Secretary
Forum Demigod

Registered: 17/12/2005
Posts: 31764
Loc: Hemel in the Hempstead
I *knew* there was a reason I wanted to move to Germany.

Imagine - society that cares for the feelings of neighbours and provides an efficient mechanism to manage it. Just how often to you *really* need to make industrial noises after ten at night?

p.s. is a post thread from ten years ago really valid?

p.p.s. you are aware that the UK has very similar laws - except that they take effect only after noise and nuisance has persistently occurred. Strikes me a more sensible approach to mark the limits beforehand...
_________________________

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#1613504 - 22/12/2017 22:26 Re: Spain vs Catalunya [Re: Jim_Clennell]
Edinburgh Online   content
Club member 225
Je suis un Coupé

Registered: 04/03/2007
Posts: 9960
Loc: Auld Reekie
Originally Posted By Jim_Clennell
. At an early stage, it should have organised a legitimate referendum to encourage those Catalans opposed to independence to stand up to the strident Pro-independence voices. That would have at least prevented the spurious claims made about the mandate for a UDI.


Although at a slightly later stage, the losses conceded by Rajoy's PP yesterday have again proven his talent for miscalculation. It must have stuck in his craw to say he would meet with whichever independence leader approached him - except those he doesn't like.

He is on thin ground at the moment.
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#1613506 - 22/12/2017 23:33 Re: Spain vs Catalunya [Re: Edinburgh]
H_R Offline
Club member 1114
My life on the forum

Registered: 30/07/2012
Posts: 1601
Loc: Dark side of the Moon
As long as the wine keeps flowing what’s it matter!

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#1613567 - 24/12/2017 14:42 Re: Spain vs Catalunya [Re: Edinburgh]
avtokrator Online   content
Enjoying the ride

Registered: 04/01/2009
Posts: 559
Loc: Spain
rofl The wine is one of the essentials. Now speaking about the German heritage we have to be "eternally thankful", and in order to make some analogy to what's on every tv channel, newspaper or politician mouth, one strong point for their Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda, it (was) is a tool so effective nowadays one could astonish how easily ALL of these politic bands put in use, pursuing covered in smoke chimeras, but hey, this is Spain, Real Madrid - FC Barça, wine, sun, and leave the show go on rofl
Merry Christmas to all xmas

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#1613583 - 24/12/2017 23:39 Re: Spain vs Catalunya [Re: avtokrator]
Edinburgh Online   content
Club member 225
Je suis un Coupé

Registered: 04/03/2007
Posts: 9960
Loc: Auld Reekie
Or if you like a bit of history, try Carthaginians and Phoenicians....compared with NE tribes and Moors for example in the rest of Spain
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