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#1125093 - 02/11/2010 23:34 Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids)
karl_20VT Offline
My life on the forum

Registered: 09/04/2006
Posts: 1809
Loc: All Over East Anglia
further to my post Here

Marco came round tonight to have a look at the failure.

I'll let him explain all the things he checked.

Suspect bottom end gone..... but only by ruling out other issues.
The two things that make us (well Marco as I have no idea) is that the sound is very "top" of engine, almost towards back of engine.
Also if the bottom end had gone, it should have low oil pressure. Mine is still holding 2.75 - 3 bar (See Video).

So this is for all those times where you've heard a funky noise, hopefully someone has heared this before and can shed some light on the problem.

Videos
Outside the car

Inside showing oil pressure
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#1125101 - 02/11/2010 23:51 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: karl_20VT]
karl_20VT Offline
My life on the forum

Registered: 09/04/2006
Posts: 1809
Loc: All Over East Anglia
by the way, i'm sat in the corner, faced towards the wall, head in hands waiting for reality to hit me.

on the bright side, its an excuse to buy a new one smile

poto blue or maybe moon grey anyone??
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#1125176 - 03/11/2010 03:24 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: karl_20VT]
Theresa Offline
La Presidentessa
Forum Fossil

Registered: 04/06/2006
Posts: 22690
Loc: North Wales
It does sound like the bottom end, especially when you rev it from inside the car frown

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#1125219 - 03/11/2010 10:37 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: Theresa]
niff
Unregistered


sounds nearly the same as mine did when my bottom end went, does not sound good mate

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#1125241 - 03/11/2010 11:04 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: ]
Marco20ValveT Offline
I AM a Coop

Registered: 03/09/2008
Posts: 12731
Loc: looking for another 20vt
it really weird..

we checked every thing on the car.
it sounds horrible.

i am 90% sure its the bottom end Karl... sorry mate.

we checked the cam belt, cam shaft's, lifters, plugs, injectors every thing really..

the big kick in the face was the little bits of metal in the oil..

sorry Karl.. frown
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#1125242 - 03/11/2010 11:08 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: Marco20ValveT]
niff
Unregistered


metal in oil = suicide sorry mate

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#1125245 - 03/11/2010 11:16 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: ]
samsite999 Offline
I AM a Coop

Registered: 09/10/2007
Posts: 11044
Loc: ,
Sounds like bottom end, if marco found bits of metal in there its game over frown
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#1125264 - 03/11/2010 11:52 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: samsite999]
BoostMeCoupeUp
Unregistered


Bottom end 99.9%

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#1125269 - 03/11/2010 12:00 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: ]
karl_20VT Offline
My life on the forum

Registered: 09/04/2006
Posts: 1809
Loc: All Over East Anglia
so question is what to do with it?
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#1125291 - 03/11/2010 12:50 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: karl_20VT]
Marco20ValveT Offline
I AM a Coop

Registered: 03/09/2008
Posts: 12731
Loc: looking for another 20vt
break it..
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#1125307 - 03/11/2010 13:22 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: Marco20ValveT]
karl_20VT Offline
My life on the forum

Registered: 09/04/2006
Posts: 1809
Loc: All Over East Anglia
i've not got the room mate, or tools or time


see thread here

If another coupe turns up, i will be keeping her to transfer all the mods over.
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#1125325 - 03/11/2010 13:47 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: karl_20VT]
BoostMeCoupeUp
Unregistered


ask marco what to do iv text him an idea for you

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#1125337 - 03/11/2010 14:29 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: ]
Marco20ValveT Offline
I AM a Coop

Registered: 03/09/2008
Posts: 12731
Loc: looking for another 20vt
got the text, nice one Nase!

i will speak to Karl...

brilliant!
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#1125492 - 03/11/2010 18:21 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: Marco20ValveT]
mli Offline
Club member 717
Reaping the fruits

Registered: 02/10/2010
Posts: 66
Loc: Denmark
I have no experience with this, but if you capture the audio
from the outside clip its 10Hz frequency i.e. corresponding
to 600rpm - thats low idle?
or is it because noise is from one of the cams that runs at half the speed of crank/engine rpm?
just a thought...
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#1125662 - 03/11/2010 23:41 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: mli]
shinyshoes
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: mli
I have no experience with this, but if you capture the audio
from the outside clip its 10Hz frequency i.e. corresponding
to 600rpm - thats low idle?
or is it because noise is from one of the cams that runs at half the speed of crank/engine rpm?
just a thought...



shocked confused shocked

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#1125860 - 04/11/2010 14:15 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: ]
BoostMeCoupeUp
Unregistered


in otherwords its still broken

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#1125915 - 04/11/2010 15:45 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: ]
Barmybob Offline
Hon Club Member: 003
Je suis un Coupé

Registered: 23/12/2005
Posts: 7827
Loc: South Cambs
That sounds more like top end to me, not good though frown
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Coupé 20VT - A5 Coupe - TT roadster

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#1125943 - 04/11/2010 16:55 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: Barmybob]
karl_20VT Offline
My life on the forum

Registered: 09/04/2006
Posts: 1809
Loc: All Over East Anglia
I have no idea what MLI is on about lol.

it does sound "VERY" top end. But after checking it over, there are just no signs of top end fault frown

I may break this car, but keep the tuning mods.
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#1126178 - 05/11/2010 08:30 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: karl_20VT]
mli Offline
Club member 717
Reaping the fruits

Registered: 02/10/2010
Posts: 66
Loc: Denmark
sorry karl smile
A bit more explanation:
I think the 'clacking' sounded 'slower' than normal engine idle speed.
So i analysed the sound in an audio editor tool.
Here I could count the 'clacking' noise to ~10 pr sec (10Hz).
This would correspond to ~600 RPM /IF/ its coming from the crank (=engine speed).
My point is that it might be more likely that the
'clacking' comes from one of the cam-shafts which is
turning at half the engine/crank speed?
i.e. noise at 600 'clacks pr min' while engine is
running at 1200 RPM
(maybe you had engine speed at 1200rpm in the 'outside' clip?)

easier to understand now?
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Prev.:Coupe16v'94,Alfa156/33,MareaSW,2xPunto,2xUno

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#1126247 - 05/11/2010 13:14 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: mli]
karl_20VT Offline
My life on the forum

Registered: 09/04/2006
Posts: 1809
Loc: All Over East Anglia
yes.

car was at normal idle in vid.
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#1127235 - 07/11/2010 22:49 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: karl_20VT]
MCMike Offline

Forum is my job

Registered: 20/12/2005
Posts: 3690
Loc: TripLE Coupé Obsession
Sounds like bottom end to me to frown
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1984 Alfasud TI
1999 Red LE
1999 Crono LE
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#1127275 - 08/11/2010 00:28 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: MCMike]
stinky Offline
Enjoying the ride

Registered: 17/12/2005
Posts: 613
Loc: Normanton, West Yorkshire.
probably bottom end but when the barchetta variators go they sound just like that,so slim chance it could be variator related

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#1616602 - 28/02/2018 00:04 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: karl_20VT]
mli Offline
Club member 717
Reaping the fruits

Registered: 02/10/2010
Posts: 66
Loc: Denmark
Hi All

I'm reviving this old thread...

My own 20vt has knocking noise:

20vt knocking noise

Note:
Cold engine: not present
warm engine: present at idle - not present above 1500rpm.
Oil pressure when hot is 2,5bar at idle and 3bar at 1500+rpm

history:
Some years back I changed the cylinder head (blown gasket).
Since then the car has been standing still (occasionally started a few times).
I was suspecting top end - i.e. stuck tappets (used a bad one in the head change? - back then I think it also had knocking noise after head change).

Last week I took off the camshaft/rocker cover and removed the camshafts.
Then I took out all 20 tappets and dismantled and cleaned each of them.
Everything back in place and started the engine.
At first a lot of ticking but no knocking - when the engine got hot the ticking more or less dissapeared (normal) - but knocking came back :-(
I had the engine running at 2000rpm for a while to fill and adjust tappets.

After reading Karl's post again and viewing some vid's - I'm now also supecting a bad crank bearing ? (bottom end) shocked oh my...

Could maybe also be bad timing?
- I have the cam-locks so need to check next time I'm at the workshop...

Note: i did perform audio analysis - the knocking is appearing with a frequency corresponding to ~350rpm - so same speed as crankshaft (or every second stroke of a cylinder I guess...).

Any hints?

Thanks,
M
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SprintBlue 20vt '97
Prev.:Coupe16v'94,Alfa156/33,MareaSW,2xPunto,2xUno

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#1616603 - 28/02/2018 00:56 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: karl_20VT]
GrahamL Offline
I need some sleep

Registered: 17/12/2005
Posts: 3440
Loc: Pothole City
Sounds more like top end to me. Strange that it goes away at high revs, maybe a blocked oilway that needs the higher pressure of high revs to pass oil?

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#1616713 - 01/03/2018 21:24 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: karl_20VT]
mli Offline
Club member 717
Reaping the fruits

Registered: 02/10/2010
Posts: 66
Loc: Denmark
Thanks karl
I'll check oilpipes - what i can see.

Then also disconnect 1 sparkplug at the time to check what happens...
(But not for 10 days - going skiing...)

M
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SprintBlue 20vt '97
Prev.:Coupe16v'94,Alfa156/33,MareaSW,2xPunto,2xUno

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#1616938 - 05/03/2018 22:11 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: karl_20VT]
moonie Offline
On a journey

Registered: 04/05/2014
Posts: 179
Loc: kent
Just drop the sump and and check big ends guessing over

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#1617769 - 24/03/2018 17:07 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: karl_20VT]
mli Offline
Club member 717
Reaping the fruits

Registered: 02/10/2010
Posts: 66
Loc: Denmark
Hi guys

Update:
I can't really see anything on oil pipes but haven't dismantled them.

As mentioned I have disassembled all 20 hydraulic tappets, cleaned them and assembled all in (still noise).
Last weekend I took off rocker when engine was cold and then when it was hot. On each occasion I checkedk each tappet for movement.
I found 4 that was spongy as if not filled. Hence they could be reason for noise.
So, off with camshaft and replaced 4 tappets. Reassembled and did valve timing (getting good training at this smile )

But there's still noise :-(

So today I warmed up engine and removed rocker cover. I checked all tappets again - this time no-one is spongy - good.

Noise appears like this:
Cold engine, idle: clacking/knocking noise
After some 5mins, idle: noise gone and engine sounds nice!
After reaching working temp, idle: clacking/knocking noise (a bit better/softer sound than cold)
Warm, above 1100rpm: no noise

I don't think it's bottom end as it's clearly higher sound when i listen above engine (vs below).

This about difference when cold/warm and high/low revs could also point at oil viscosity?
I had used 10w-60 castrol sport oil. Maybe not good as 10w-40 recommended. Maybe too thin when hot?
I'm going to try std 10w-40...

M
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SprintBlue 20vt '97
Prev.:Coupe16v'94,Alfa156/33,MareaSW,2xPunto,2xUno

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#1617786 - 25/03/2018 07:49 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: karl_20VT]
Countrycruising Offline
Club Rep Europe, member 914
I AM a Coop

Registered: 12/09/2006
Posts: 14405
Loc: FCSS 01684 593187
So possible lazy or seized valves on the hydraulic lifters, either way it is sounding positive, and with the oil you're using the same weight with the 10 grade oil, the 40 and 60 are the optimum working temps so my personal choice would be 60 as induction temps rocket with spirited drivings so the 60 will hold a better viscosity.
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#1617788 - 25/03/2018 11:15 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: karl_20VT]
magooagain Offline
Club member 259
Forum is my life

Registered: 22/10/2008
Posts: 6400
Loc: ked
If you were not talking about the valve lifters ,from you're description it sounds like cracked manifold .
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#1617790 - 25/03/2018 13:08 Re: Engine Noise - Dead or not? Advice needed (vids) [Re: karl_20VT]
GrahamL Offline
I need some sleep

Registered: 17/12/2005
Posts: 3440
Loc: Pothole City
Once it's running OK and noise is gone how long does it take at idle until the noise returns? A few seconds or a few minutes?

If it's only happening after minutes of idling I'd just drive the car normally and forget about it. If it doesn't happen under normal driving conditions then it's probably just a slightly restricted oilway (inside the head or tappet) causing a tappet to not automatically refill due to the lower oil pressure at idle.


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