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What Car #1619139
19/04/2018 08:44
19/04/2018 08:44
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,159
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samsite999 Offline OP
I AM a Coop
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So, Say you have a budget of 11k+or- and would like to buy something nice.
Rules,

Its got to be able to be used daily
Its got to be 200bhp or above
Convertible, coupe is fine
No practical requirement other than being easier to get in and out of than a mx5/rx8
It's got to have a bit of fun about it but retain ability to do long boring motorway drives

Cars looked at and discounted
370z as that dash is shocking
CaymanS as the more I read about IMB, bore scores and oil usage the mode I want no part of that bill
BMW z4 - I just don't like it

Would quite like a hardtop convertible, open to suggestions

Re: What Car [Re: samsite999] #1619140
19/04/2018 09:14
19/04/2018 09:14
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,184
norwich, norfolk
adam16vt Offline
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,184
norwich, norfolk
Audi TTs, a mate has one, it's awesome

Get the dsg model and they fart between each gear change

Re: What Car [Re: samsite999] #1619141
19/04/2018 09:20
19/04/2018 09:20
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,290
Staffs
Dazvr6 Offline
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Mercedes SL350?
Around 250 ponies of V8 noise and a folding hardtop roof.

Re: What Car [Re: samsite999] #1619142
19/04/2018 09:31
19/04/2018 09:31
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,960
west bromwich
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coupedummy Offline
Je suis un Coupé
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Je suis un Coupé
C

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,960
west bromwich


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Re: What Car [Re: samsite999] #1619143
19/04/2018 09:33
19/04/2018 09:33
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,960
west bromwich
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coupedummy Offline
Je suis un Coupé
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,960
west bromwich


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Re: What Car [Re: samsite999] #1619148
19/04/2018 10:31
19/04/2018 10:31
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,960
west bromwich
C
coupedummy Offline
Je suis un Coupé
coupedummy  Offline
Je suis un Coupé
C

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,960
west bromwich


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Re: What Car [Re: coupedummy] #1619149
19/04/2018 10:32
19/04/2018 10:32
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,159
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samsite999 Offline OP
I AM a Coop
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Joined: Oct 2007
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Originally Posted By coupedummy


wow, simply wow. I have to take a proper look at this now

Re: What Car [Re: samsite999] #1619150
19/04/2018 10:38
19/04/2018 10:38
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,960
west bromwich
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coupedummy Offline
Je suis un Coupé
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,960
west bromwich

Last edited by coupedummy; 19/04/2018 10:39.

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Re: What Car [Re: samsite999] #1619151
19/04/2018 10:53
19/04/2018 10:53
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,159
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S
samsite999 Offline OP
I AM a Coop
samsite999  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2007
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Not feeling the Audi to be honest. The 335d is on the list to have a proper drive in, remapped they can be very quick and reasonable to maintain.
Fiat and Alfa have nothing of interest, and Jag R's are out of budget frown

Re: What Car [Re: samsite999] #1619152
19/04/2018 11:07
19/04/2018 11:07
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,960
west bromwich
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coupedummy Offline
Je suis un Coupé
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,960
west bromwich


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Re: What Car [Re: samsite999] #1619154
19/04/2018 11:27
19/04/2018 11:27
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,384
Lightwater, Surrey
DaveG Offline
Club Treasurer Member 311
DaveG  Offline
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Je suis un Coupé

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,384
Lightwater, Surrey


1996 Portofino 20vt & 2000 Pearl White Plus
1985½ & 2016 2017 Fiat 124 Spider + XF Sportbrake
Re: What Car [Re: samsite999] #1619159
19/04/2018 14:51
19/04/2018 14:51
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869
Germany
neil_r Offline
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Germany
Not an "R" but a lowish mileage 300hp V8 is not far away from your target price:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201709309828650


1997 20V
2000 V6 manual S-Type and 2011 5.0 XKR
2016 Tucson 1.6T AWD
2018 Mazda2 GT
Re: What Car [Re: samsite999] #1619170
19/04/2018 20:46
19/04/2018 20:46
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,298
Pontefract, West Yorkshire
andyps Offline
Club member 1482
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I can certainly recommend a Jag XK (with or without an R). Concern with a BMW M6 is parts cost and economy. My brother considered a V10 M5 briefly but discounted it on that basis. Looking at the average fuel economy on one of them it was single digit!


Andy

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Re: What Car [Re: samsite999] #1619171
19/04/2018 21:11
19/04/2018 21:11
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,159
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S
samsite999 Offline OP
I AM a Coop
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,159
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I do like the xk, and the M5 would be lovely but ongoing costs would be stupid.
Merc is something I haven't looked at but I'm liking the look of the sl350

Re: What Car [Re: samsite999] #1619177
20/04/2018 05:56
20/04/2018 05:56
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,609
S. Wales. Way beyond my means
Gripped Offline
Club member 1924
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Forum is my job

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S. Wales. Way beyond my means

Re: What Car [Re: samsite999] #1619179
20/04/2018 07:15
20/04/2018 07:15
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869
Germany
neil_r Offline
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Germany
Originally Posted By samsite999
I do like the xk, and the M5 would be lovely but ongoing costs would be stupid.
Merc is something I haven't looked at but I'm liking the look of the sl350


The X150 XK is a fairly reliable car and if you stick to the non-R, which is still a rather nice car, parts prices are very sane and easy to get - many shared with S-Types and XFs of the same era. Mercedes and BMW pars for equivalent models is very likely to be noticably higher and whether they are more reliable is very debatable. The later SL though is reputed to be pretty solid - is this the one: https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/mercedes-benz/sl-r230-2002/

Town mpg on any a V8 is not great though whatever the specs say frown


1997 20V
2000 V6 manual S-Type and 2011 5.0 XKR
2016 Tucson 1.6T AWD
2018 Mazda2 GT
Re: What Car [Re: samsite999] #1619181
20/04/2018 09:34
20/04/2018 09:34
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,290
Staffs
Dazvr6 Offline
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If the budget allows I think the mid 06 onward 350 has the 272bhp V6 fitted which is a better unit and also the 7g gearbox which has a paddle shift too.
I tried the same setup in a CLK and the gearbox is a great improvement on the earlier tiptronic.

Re: What Car [Re: samsite999] #1619194
20/04/2018 19:44
20/04/2018 19:44
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,852
Cambridge & Cotswolds
M
MeanRedSpider Offline
Je suis un Coupé
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Posts: 8,852
Cambridge & Cotswolds
I really like my SL350. It’s the later generation (14) car with over 300bhp and a whole 50kg lighter but the shape has hardly changed. They make a great GT car - you have to concentrate if you’re going to throw it around (which I quite like) and, as I’ve said before, there’s plenty of power for today’s roads.

I’d be utterly astonished if a 2006 Merc isn’t more reliable than a 2006 Jag. Stay away from the period of Mercs around 2000-2002 (and maybe with a bit of a tail into later years) - this was a really dark period for Merc. But they spent billions on resolving this and my W211 Mercs have been in a totally different league from my terrible W210 (2001) car. Apart from that bad Chrysler period, Mercs are an utter joy to work on. The seats in my SL are the best I’ve ever sat in too.

All of that said, a current SL starts at around £75,000 - there’s inevitably some expensive bits in a car like that.

Re: What Car [Re: samsite999] #1619197
20/04/2018 20:29
20/04/2018 20:29
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,112
The clues in the name
D
DanTheManc Offline
Competition Level
DanTheManc  Offline
Competition Level
D

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,112
The clues in the name
Same engine as the current Golf R. Sat nnav and all other mod cons. Remap gives 370bhp and returns over 30mpg combined and 40mpg 9n a run. Slightly over budget but not by much.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201803204742218?atmobcid=soc3


2000 Moony 20VT6
VXR
BMW 335i
BMW M135i
2017 Cupra 290 Black Edition
Re: What Car [Re: samsite999] #1619226
21/04/2018 15:13
21/04/2018 15:13
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 91
West Wales
Zam Offline
Reaping the fruits
Zam  Offline
Reaping the fruits

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Posts: 91
West Wales

Re: What Car [Re: samsite999] #1619234
21/04/2018 18:15
21/04/2018 18:15
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 158
Staffordshire
L
Lee_k Offline
On a journey
Lee_k  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 158
Staffordshire
Got to admit not my thing, but it seems to tick all your boxes and i love an underdog!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ621aQB0hQ

Re: What Car [Re: samsite999] #1619263
22/04/2018 07:13
22/04/2018 07:13
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,057
Southsea
G
Gunzi Offline
Club member 189, Former Club President
Gunzi  Offline
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Posts: 8,057
Southsea
Mk1 Focus RS

Fiesta ST with Mountune upgrade

Mini Cooper S Works

S2000

Impreza of some description

Volvo S40 2.5T

Giulietta Cloverleaf


Last edited by Gunzi; 22/04/2018 07:21. Reason: More cars
Re: What Car [Re: samsite999] #1619272
22/04/2018 09:10
22/04/2018 09:10
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,609
S. Wales. Way beyond my means
Gripped Offline
Club member 1924
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Club member 1924
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,609
S. Wales. Way beyond my means
My mate has the Fiesta ST Mountune and it is very quick. The corner speed is ridiculous.

Re: What Car [Re: MeanRedSpider] #1619300
23/04/2018 06:54
23/04/2018 06:54
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869
Germany
neil_r Offline
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Germany
Originally Posted By MeanRedSpider
I’d be utterly astonished if a 2006 Merc isn’t more reliable than a 2006 Jag.


It is a strange concept I agree but for example compare the types of faults and their frequencies here:

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/mercedes-benz/sl-r230-2002/?section=good

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/jaguar/xk-2006/?section=good

This type of conclusion is common in buying guides for the XK. All car models have spurious faults which are not common, however, the XK is a surprisingly well built car with few common faults and generally quiet forums because they don't often go wrong.

More recent Jaguars are nowhere near as bad as their reputation and German produced cars a nowhere near as good as their reputation. The reality is that the general standard is now pretty high with most of the stuff still screwed together in Japan being the most reliable.


1997 20V
2000 V6 manual S-Type and 2011 5.0 XKR
2016 Tucson 1.6T AWD
2018 Mazda2 GT
Re: What Car [Re: samsite999] #1619327
23/04/2018 16:01
23/04/2018 16:01
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,159
,
S
samsite999 Offline OP
I AM a Coop
samsite999  Offline OP
I AM a Coop
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 11,159
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Thanks smile
A car forum, who would have thought it was such a great place to get car advice smile

Re: What Car [Re: neil_r] #1619329
23/04/2018 17:34
23/04/2018 17:34
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,852
Cambridge & Cotswolds
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MeanRedSpider Offline
Je suis un Coupé
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Joined: Mar 2006
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Cambridge & Cotswolds
Originally Posted By neil_r
Originally Posted By MeanRedSpider
I’d be utterly astonished if a 2006 Merc isn’t more reliable than a 2006 Jag.


It is a strange concept I agree but for example compare the types of faults and their frequencies here:

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/mercedes-benz/sl-r230-2002/?section=good

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/jaguar/xk-2006/?section=good

This type of conclusion is common in buying guides for the XK. All car models have spurious faults which are not common, however, the XK is a surprisingly well built car with few common faults and generally quiet forums because they don't often go wrong.

More recent Jaguars are nowhere near as bad as their reputation and German produced cars a nowhere near as good as their reputation. The reality is that the general standard is now pretty high with most of the stuff still screwed together in Japan being the most reliable.


Here though you’re comparing faults from a 2002 (Dark period) designed Merc with a much later designed Jag. As before, the updated model (2006) update is much better. Since 2008, in back-to-back Mercs, I’ve not had a single fault on any of my modern Mercs - actually, not quite true - the lid of the little (ashtray-style) cubby hole on my SL wouldn’t always open properly without a prod - fixed under warranty (they even collected the car from 150 miles away and left me a courtesy car).

I’ve no doubt Jag have improved - frankly they couldn’t get a lot worse. My folks had one of the last XJSs and saying that it was a piece of rubbish would be charitable - it probably went wrong every 200 miles. My dad, who I’ve hardly ever seen cry, was in tears with it. It’s hard to get worse from there.

But to go back to my original advice - avoid anything that has anything to do with the 2000-2002 period from Merc - they totally lost the plot. But they recognised this and spent billions fixing quality.

This would be a fairer comparison R230 with the later model Jag - pretty short of issue reports
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/mercedes-benz/sl-r230-2008/?section=good

Re: What Car [Re: samsite999] #1619347
24/04/2018 06:02
24/04/2018 06:02
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869
Germany
neil_r Offline
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In the price range we are looking at - a bit over 11k, there are few of either car and the SLs seem to be the pre 2008 facelift, so I think the comparison is not that unfair.

Comparing a 1970 XJS is frankly completely pointless though. Mercedes in those days were some of the best built cars available. Jaguars on the other hand were close to the worst at any price from any country.

Today all mass produced cars are built intrinsically in the same way from similar parts from the same bunch of sub-suppliers, they just look different. We expect Mercedes to build good cars. They have the scale and the resources to do so. That expectation is not there for Jaguar even though they have also spent billions improving their standards and their products are similarly reliable these days.

Most of my friends and colleagues have German cars and I hear of a lot of problems. They don't seem to work like clockwork, especially the more affordable stuff. Things wear out quite fast. Design problems that the manufacturers won't fix. Expensive dealers that can't sort problems. Hence, I don't see that made in Germany always means better made. It is a great "brand" but the rest of the world has actually caught them up.


1997 20V
2000 V6 manual S-Type and 2011 5.0 XKR
2016 Tucson 1.6T AWD
2018 Mazda2 GT
Re: What Car [Re: samsite999] #1619348
24/04/2018 06:21
24/04/2018 06:21
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 33,520
Berlin
barnacle Offline
Club Member 18 - ex-Minister without Portfolio
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Posts: 33,520
Berlin
And don't forget that independent of the sticker price, each and every part on that hundred thousand euro car is built by the cheapest bidder.

I don't make cars, but for the things I do make, I spend days trying to save a tenth of a cent on the build price. If I can save half a buck, that's big time...


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Re: What Car [Re: samsite999] #1619373
24/04/2018 17:24
24/04/2018 17:24
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,852
Cambridge & Cotswolds
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MeanRedSpider Offline
Je suis un Coupé
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Joined: Mar 2006
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Cambridge & Cotswolds
The XJS was being built until 1996 - that’s only 6 years from the start of R230 SL production - not such a pointless comparison - and only 10 years from the start of the Jags we are talking about. To go from the shocking piece of rubbish my parents bought to something Merc quality in 10 years is a stretch. My brother has had Discoveries from the same stable and there has been a slow improvement from the early really poor stuff to today where it is much better.

The other thing is that the SL at least isn’t built in the numbers that I’d consider as mass produced in the accepted sense of the word. They simply aren’t produced in big numbers. Mine has aluminium body panels and carbon fibre reinforcement. And, whilst I’m sure Mercedes have accountants like most companies, Mercedes design standards are way better than any car I’ve worked on. In fact, where Mercedes went horribly wrong in 2000 is that they tried to make cars like other manufacturers and simply didn’t know how to - they were crap at it.

I can’t speak much for the modern A Class - they’re incredibly successful for Merc - but at that end of the market money is tight.

The Japanese thing is also a bit of a myth in the luxury end of things. What the Japanese excel at is designing cars that are deliver just enough and no more. They find a way of doing something and won’t change it unless they’ve found something better. This is fabulous if you’re buying a real mass product. All of that said, I had a series of Imprezas and they were every bit as unreliable as any car I’ve owned. Parts were criminally expensive. Service was superb - way way better than Merc.

I’m not a “German” fan but I am a “luxury-end” Merc fan. I’m a professional mechanical engineer working in consumer electronics (and now automotive too wink ) and would like to think (at least) that I know quality engineering when I see it.

Re: What Car [Re: samsite999] #1619399
25/04/2018 06:13
25/04/2018 06:13
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 869
Germany
neil_r Offline
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Germany
I think we are arguing around the subject. LR products still come up low in reliability reviews even though they are very popular these days. The complete JLR activities are not yet as good as they could be. Before Ford, Jaguar had little money and had to make models last a very long time. The last XJS's might have been built in 1996 but the first were built in 1975 and that era was not the British motor industry's best - poor design and production. The next XK was based on the XJS platform and its build quality is also poor and troublesome in some areas and that car, while nice enough, was not competitive even at launch.

The actual point was that the 2006- XK is not comparable to the old Jaguars. It was a clean-slate design using up-to-date techniques and materials, very competitive with the good cars of its era and to say that it will be crap because it is a Jaguar is just not true. Take a closer look and you will see that they are an excellent second hand buy as they are well made but because of Jaguar's general reputation, cheaper than they should be.

The XK was also built in small numbers 57k in about 9 years vs. the R230's 169k in around 9 years, also all aluminium construction, relatively simple with mainly trusted parts.

The Japanese still seem to screw things together better or their local component suppliers are better. Looking through our "TüV" reviews, Japanese produced cars, small cheap stuff or Lexus, etc., were almost always at the top end of the results. Cars from Japanese companies produced abroad were not generally better than any other competitor, even though there were one or two exceptions.

Some of our friends work at Mercedes. Some say there isn't a better car manufacturer, some only have problems with their cars (they get big discounts so all drive Mercedes cars). Making a one-fits-all statement for any manufacturer is not likely to be correct or fair. Hence my point about the XK being well worth considering, whatever one thinks of JLR reliability in general.


1997 20V
2000 V6 manual S-Type and 2011 5.0 XKR
2016 Tucson 1.6T AWD
2018 Mazda2 GT
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